PT A Thread For Prequel Fans To Discuss New Star Wars Content (spoiler tags required)

Not only that, most of us thought that original marketing campaign, the whole practical effects nonsense, would pass as it was Disney's attempt to win back disgruntled anti-pt fans. However, what we have learned from Lucas is that the theme of the marketing campaign transferred into the movie as Disney straight out told him they wanted to do a movie for the fans.

So with all that OT iconography, all the rehashed ANH themes, re-used OT themes (super weapons and attack on said) exactly which fans was Disney thinking of?

The very foundation of the movie is a snub to the pt to give those unhappy with the pt their movie. What better way than having stormies, star destroyers, tie fighters vs the falcon, and not 1, but 2 x-wing vs tie fighter dog fight...

Now surely there will be an Easter egg or two for PT fans to find. Maybe a nice quaint nod here or there. But it is quite clear which fans Disney, Kennedy, Abrams all had in mind when this movie was being conceptualized.

One of these days I'm going to have to write an essay/article about the underlying anti-pt theme from the marketing, from the people that made the movie, and after the movie comes out if there is any narrative changes done.

Just from the first EW article with Abrams Jar Jar joke to endear himself to a certain segment of fans we see the start of it. Then there was the convention panels, the BTS video, Simon Pegg, the Howard Stern interview of Abrams where Stern just trashed Lucas and the Prequels and Abrams said nothing in defense of his "friend"...

It's all there now to be seen, and with Lucas comments we see why.

Edit: Let's not forget Kennedy making sure to diffuse any fears of those same anti-pt fans when the news was released that they would be doing a Han Solo movie, and she made sure to point out that they wouldn't be going so far as to show an 11 year old Han Solo, an obvious jab at TPM and that many anti-pt people thought Lucas started Anakin too young...

 

During the marketing they were harping on about practical effects. It was annoying, I agree but what does that have to do with fan pandering? How do you know a reduction in CGI was not simply their preference? The list of directors out there who dislike the overuse of CGI is a long one. I think it was more a case of self pandering. & quite right too. They need to make the movie the way they think is best.

Who were the antagonists in the Lucas version Mike? Pls show that the FO including their troops & ships weren't carried over from the Lucas/Arndt draft. All of the hints regarding the changes have been about the characters, their stories & their relationships. The heroes in particular. Not even the slightest hint, not even from well informed sites like MSW that the FO & the villains were not already part of the story in some form. You've been blaming Abrams & Disney for months about the FO but I've yet to see you establish that it came from them. Still waiting.

 

Nobody is talking about sound design, or music. I'm talking about story, aesthetic, and originality. And yes, Kasdan is a fan. So are the people from the Story Group and those working at Lucasfilm and ILM. They are all serving a fan made story instead of the original one George provided.

It's not an insult, it's meant to point out the difference. If you see fan fiction as demeaning, then you understand what's at stake and why people are upset about the absence of Lucas and his story.

I'm not the one pretending.

I never questioned the canonicity of anything, you'll have to come up with a new excuse. Licensed fan fiction has been canon for years, before and after Disney rebooted it.

 

Ok Alex. I think almost everyone if they were being honest would admit that referring to Star Wars Ep VII as fan fiction is meant as a dig. But whatever. The PT attracts far worse labels so I guess let's keep throwing silly names at the various parts of the Saga.

 

It is a dig to point out what we are getting.

They can attract any subjective labels based on personal preference/taste, but fan fiction is not one of them since it comes directly from the author of the franchise.

 

As if it matters. By your definition some of the best entries within various properties are "fan fiction". Skyfall as a Bond story, some of the best comic book entries, Deep Space Nine within Star Trek. Roddenberry's wife even said that Gene would've hated DS9 & that it wasn't consistent with his vision for Trek. Try going to a ST forum & declaring DS9 mere fan fiction. You'd be laughed out of the forum. Labeling all future SW content this way will have the same effect.

 

We have been over and back again about this. You can pretend all you want, there is little doubt that from various interviews,mconvention panels and the BTS video, the narrative was that they were correcting what the PT got wrong as far as CGI. Going into those conventions, Disney/LFL had nothing else to talk about at those panels, nothing about the story, characters, nothing. One of the lead off questions from the panel host (obviously reading rewritten questions) was that he heard they were going retro with the practical, this time around....THiS TIME AROUND! When the fans cheered he laughs looks at the fans and says yeah we heard you like that... It's fan pandering to the segment of the fandom that saw the PT as CG porn and was a complaint of those fans. I could keep going but we've been through this all before. We have the director saying that when Star Wars felt real was when he was a kid was ANH, while not a direct insult, it's his way of saying the PT didn't feel real.

It's been well documented here, as well as other Star Wars fan sites and sources.

Is that what you got? The hope that Lucas had stormtroopers, tie fighters etc in his treatment? Once again having a discussion with you is very boring because you just can't be honest. If all you got as a counter point that there is a possibility that Lucas's treatments had a FO like entity in it, meanwhile ignoring ALL of the other examples I, and others, have outlined over the 150+ pages in this thread, than you are incapable of having an honest discussion, and are merely pushing your own agenda to protect TFA. To sit here and pretend that's all I am harping on, and not the ANH plot rehashes, Super weapons, tie fighter evolution not making sense, planet renaming though essentially the same as the OT, organizations renamed though essentially the same as the OT, the big bad being rehashed as a leader that sends his apprentice out to do his dirty work while controlling everything from far away, Lucas comments where Disney came out and told him they wanted a movie for the fans, Kenndyngetting up at the conventions and announcing that Star Wars belongs to the fans, etc etc...

So yeah, if all you have is the hope that Lucas's treatments had stormtroopers in it too as proof that TFA isn't fan pandering and doing so at the expense of the PT, you obviously don't have much of an arguement against all the other stuff we've laid out over 150+ pages....

 

Not only that, but just For the purposes of discussion, let's pretend that Lucas's treatment had a FO like off shoot of the Empire, with the body of work we have with Lucas, does anyone really believe that a Lucas created FO would be using the same exact tie fighters? With six movies under his belt we see Lucas liked progressing designs. It's clear those tie fighters were picked for the purpose that they were icons and recognizable to the audience and fans. So that the prime battles had the same look as ANH.
Fan Pandering!

 

It matters to me.

Best to whom? And again, we're talking about Episode VII, not a random spin-off. This is a direct continuation of Lucas story, and they decided to ignore the story he envisioned in order to do something for (pander to) the fans.

So you're saying that I should appeal to the majority? I could care less if I'm laughed at or not. I stand by what I said.

 

I would have liked the FO more if they used TIE interceptors instead of regular TIE´s. And where are the Y-wings?

 

Now, we're getting into tin hat area. Sorry.

 

Obviously, the title can have multiple story meanings.

But tied into the marketing, along with everything else, it can suggest -- in a transitory, flimsy, but purposeful marketing context -- another jab at the PT.

Hey, guys! The Force was asleep in those ****** prequels, wasn't it?

"Chewie, we're home."

Everything is tweaked -- tilted -- just so.

In a seduction, everything can be plausibly denied.

 

I should've been clearer. There are two distinct elements to this. The decision to use a higher proportion of practical effects & the choice to focus on this fact in the marketing. I agree there was that period of a few months where they rambled on about the issue too much.

I don't "hope" that the FO came from Lucas. I couldn't care less. What does it possibly matter? If we find out it did will that instantly make them any different on screen? What I am pointing out is that the FO, TIE's, ST's & the superweapon are, if I had to guess your no 1 gripe. At least in terms of the volume of posts you've written about them. They always point the finger at Abrams & Disney & this forms a key part of your "pandering" argument. My honest opinion is that the FO came from Lucas, at least in a very similar form. & it's not based on hope, it's based on years & even decades of hints & evidence. He sanctioned the Zahn novels including its continuation of the Empire beyond RotJ. As mentioned there have been no hints or leaks at all about a significant change to the villains in this movie. Pablo confirmed that they used GL's notes to establish the state of the galaxy post RotJ. Back in the 80's an edition of Starlog discussed GL's broad ideas for a future ST featuring an old Luke. The one Mark Hamill has often discussed:



So what I'm saying is, people use the FO as a key example of pandering & fan fiction in TFA. The irony might be that not depicting the First Order would have been fan fiction.

You might be right. Then again you might not be. We're left to guess. Which is kind of my point. What I do know is that Lucas' ideas always serve the story. It made sense for the prequels to have quite different ships & tech. The story demanded it. If his story for the villains in EpVII was a group of Imperial fanatics obsessed with the Empire then he would have that group emulate the Empire in whatever way he chose. If that was his story. I doubt he'd be put off & worried about accusations of pandering to the OT crowd.

Ok Alex, ok. Enjoy your fan fiction meme.

A variant of the B-Wing was just revealed. Does that score any points?

You can surely only say that if the title did not relate so strongly to the story. Since it does this kind of conspiracy theory has to go out the window.
Still not sure if you're joking or not

 

The first part is Polly Anna BS. Artists create art and the world reacts to it. If they like, they will say. If they don't lke it, they will say. But you can't have your cake and eat it too. Along with the reward of praise, adoration, and wheelbarrows full of money comes the risk that some segment of the fan base won't like what you do. That is not to excuse some of the more childish ranting (Lucas raped my childhood.... The PT doesn't exist. Kind of junk), but he can't expect to just do whatever, and expect people to love it.

The second part is spot on. If control of Star Wars was so damned important to him, he shouldn't have sold the company. I can just imagine the sour grapes if TFA is well-received and the reviews are compare it favorably to the PT. FWIW, I do NOT want reviewers to do that. But I think comparisons to the PT are inevitible, good or bad. Hopefully they will finally fet it out of their system and we can move on.

I sure hope they don't do that. Not that I have a problem with the idea of Anakin as a Force Ghost, but it would be freaking WEIRD to have crusty old Luke to talking to 30 something Dad! Also, I think Hayden was woefully miscast as Anakin. Best to leave that one alone, IMO.

One more thing.... On fan fiction. I think is pretty bloody obvious that the use of the term "fan fiction" is meant to deman the new movies as being inauthentic, and typically of less quality, although, I will grant that maybe some don't intend that last bit. But however you slice it, these films will not be fanfic. People can reject than as inauthentic becuase they didn't come from Lucas, but that will be a very small club, IMO. The vast majority don't give a crap who George Lucas is. And of those who do, most want a good Star Wars movie, George or no George.

 

Dp

 

A variant of the B-Wing was just revealed. Does that score any points?[/quote]

Really? Thats nice. Im glad theres not only X-wings.And the B-wing is a nice ship. Thanks for sharing this information.

 

How generous of you.

The mold was actually cast back in July 2013:

"The conversation we're having all the time now about Episode VII is, 'How much CGI?'" Kennedy told the audience at this weekend's Star Wars Celebration Europe event in Essen, Germany. "We're looking at what the early Star Wars films did; they used real locations with special effects. So [for Episode VII] we're going to find some very cool locations, we're going to end up using every single tool in the toolbox."

"I was amazed yesterday and looking at what the fans are doing," referring to some of the presentations and displays at Celebration Europe. "Using model makers, using real droids, taking advantage of the artwork that you can touch and feel -- we want to do that in combination with CG effects."

Source: http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/kennedy-announces-return-practical-effects-594929

Same bragging, same euphemisms, same implicit dissing of the PT.

You must have reading comprehension problems -- or you're just terminally dishonest.

I actually wrote three additional lines underneath to qualify my meaning. Here they are (since I don't like being ignorantly misrepresented):

"Chewie, we're home."

Everything is tweaked -- tilted -- just so.

In a seduction, everything can be plausibly denied.

So, no, not joking.

They even dropped the episode numbering to retain the purity of "STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS".

It's all kinda obvious in a way. But people will only see as much as they want to see.

 

Yeah...but the title clearly describes what we know of the story. Do you think they sat around & chose a title that suited the story or chose one that would most distance the film from the PT? I'm going for option A.

Ha, great point. That would be mental.

 

Calling it what it is makes it a meme?

 

It's literally not what it is. Obviously Lucasfilm don't have the status of "fans". They own the property that is SW. Everyone gets what you mean, it's not complicated. But don't think you're actually using the term to its correct meaning. Fanfic are stories written by people outside the legitimate production of said property or story. Lucasfilm don't qualify. Don't let that deter you though, keep at it

 

False dichotomy -- perhaps the extent of what your intellect can accommodate?

It can be multifarious. Shrewd business choices work on multiple levels.

Unlike, say, "The Phantom Menace", and "A New Hope", "The Force Awakens" is virtually indistinguishable from a tagline or ad slogan.

And it has already been established, quite comprehensively, with copious references, that a significant chunk of their marketing campaign (and even the construction of the film itself according to George Lucas -- not that you have to believe him) is built around appeasing rankled fans.

Then, as I said, there is an element of plausible deniability at work. It clearly works, too, because here the TFA brigade are, flatly denying it and accusing me of "tin hat" thinking, or suggesting on repeat that I'm only kidding.

Reductio ad absurdum/non-sequitur.

If Lucas called "The Phantom Menace", "The Really Involved, Layered, and Beautiful Prologue", would you immediately like it more?

Apart from it being a bizarre title, of course, you wouldn't. It could never apply in reality. It's a moot point.

They've done enough, for this fan, to suggest they're courting fans based on implicitly slamming the prequels, and/or constantly insinuating they're offering the anti-thesis of the prequels, over, and over, and over.

So, no, it may sound nutty to you and other faith-heads, but I have next to zero trust in Disney, Kathleen Kennedy, or J.J. Abrams, and I claim that right.

 

Darth Downunder Hence the 'licensed' part.

 

Wow. That's cynical. Hey, if you are happier being a misery guts and hatin' on new Star Wars because you think it slights your preferred version, then IMO, you're just like those who rant about the PT. Sorry, but the PT IS criticized for over-reliance on CGI. It's not at all surprising that the producers of the new movies would go out of their way to address those complaints. I happen to think they road that horse a tad too long, but it hasn't hurt them that I can see, except with folks already inclined to feel insulted each step of the way. But the fact is that the overuse of CGI is RAMPANT in the movies, the PT is just a well-known case of it. Even Fury Road talked about the importance of using practical effects when necessary, and live stunts, etc. Were THEY reacting to the PT as well? Yeah.... kinda sorta. But they were reacting to the hundreds of crap fests that have come out in the last 10 years as well. I mean, does anyone think it's a BAD idea to use more practical effects? Surely, even die hard fans of the PT can appreciate the advantages of using real people in real costumes whenever possible, while still bringing out the digital guns when called for.

 

Lucas didn't say anything about them making the film for "rankled" fans, just fans.

Regarding the title, I thought that was a throwaway line by you Cryo, not something to be the subject of intense debate. If you think they deliberately chose a title to dis the PT then ok. I can't prove otherwise.

 

But that's NOT what it is. To say so is intellectually dishonest. The people who have the rights to make Star Wars are making Star Wars. The idea that only George Lucas can make Star Wars is very shallow, IMO. It discounts the efforts of other artists and craftsmen involved, and ignores the role of the audience.