PT A Thread For Prequel Fans To Discuss New Star Wars Content (spoiler tags required)

That's what it is. And how exactly am I being "intellectually dishonest"?

That was never in question.

And who said that?

No, it doesn't. It 'discounts' what they are working on.

Which is?

 

No sorry Alex. Licensed fan fiction would be LFL granting permission for an outside writer to use the characters & themes of Star Wars in their story. Lucasfilm itself producing a Star Wars movie doesn't qualify. It's a free country though, you stick to your guns.

 

Boy, I'm getting really bored of that one.

Do you guys have a keyboard shortcut for that insult?

I know what it's criticized for -- everything from writing and direction to the presence of the common cold.

Doesn't change the fact that Disney tactically set out to malign the prequels by inference.

I like practical effects as much as the next guy, but it's a red herring.

It should be about what's right for the story. The story should take precedence.

It did for Lucas. He repeatedly shattered the technology ceiling so that he could literally paint his vision on-screen and advance the medium of cinema.

But they haven't really done that here. It's clearly they've gone for an elusive feel that they think is marketable. Some kind of kludged practical-digital hybrid look.

And you know what? It seems to have limited their imagination. Or the other way around: they have limited imagination, so limiting practical effects (and solid but not necessarily mind-blowing, envelope-pushing digital effects) are sufficient for their purposes.

 

The commonly accepted definition definition of Fan Fic is that they are works of art created about an IP without the express permission of those who own the rights to it. That isn't the case here. LFL OWNS Star Wars and they are making it.

Well, you kind of do below, but the whole point of calling the ST "fan films" is to undermine their legitimacy by privileging the "authenticity" of George's vision. If that ISN'T what you intended, I suggest altering your argument, 'cause that's what I get out of it.

Which isn't any different. Lucas did not make the first 6 movies on his own. All movies are a cooperative artistic endeavor.

Errr... Lit 101. The audience completes the process of making meaning. A film is just an artifact without an audience. It really only has MEANING once it is seen and the audience, along with their own cultural experiences, and expectations establishes meaning in collaboration with the film makers. This is why you'll get so many different answers to the question of what Star Wars is about. It's why there is a rift between some OT and some PT fans (and why others enjoy all 6, other 5, etc., etc.). This is rudimentary film/lit studies stuff.

 

i made that. not lucasfilm. most of the things i've posted here i made. they're all here.

jsnification - YouTube

 

You should have kept quiet.

Your work is good enough to fool people!

I really liked that trailer. And I thought the music actually went with the footage quite well.

That could be your best work ever! I just put it on again. Really great. More like a tone poem.

In fact, it could be my favourite TFA trailer, period.

Okay, TJT, you have earned your trailer-making licence.

I'm not pulling your leg. Perhaps a job in marketing beckons? I honestly find it very, very favourable to the official trailers and spots!

And I got tricked myself!!!! I thought it came from a recent convention showing or something. Very fun, effortless, and sort of surreal with that AOTC "action" music.

You devil. I'm actually starting to feel some tingling of warmth for TFA right now! And I would also like to thank you for all the work you've done in creating these neat reels and bringing the latest stuff into this thread.

Please don't get hurt by my extensive negativity. We all have our opinions. Glad to see you putting your skills to use -- as all SW fans should!!!

 

positivity is good. you know it to be true.

 

You're a crafty man!

 

Fan fiction is fiction based on an existing property made by fans. Currently, fans are in charge of the company that owns that same property and decided to make a movie while ignoring the material the author provided.

And that in no way means that only George can make Star Wars or that those who own the IP can't do anything with it. You're completely ignoring the fact that a story for a sequel trilogy from the author of the franchise exists while at the same time hitting a strawman of what they are allowed to do or not.

Yes, it is. I can acknowledge the work it required to create something while at the same time share my criticism about the work piece itself.

Led by a man's vision: George Lucas'. Right now, it's led by an handful of fans who are limited by their own nostalgia and bias. Worse, it's Star Wars by committee. And you know the saying: a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

The audience is first and foremost the artist. The public can become the audience if there's an interest, however, the public is (or should be) irrelevant on the creative proccess. Art is the expression of the artist. Pandering is not expression.

 

Cryogenic you're going to love this one that Downunder pulled...

This is why I love the internet! It's just a fabulous tool to show who can think for themselves, and who just regurgitates information they are told is true (but isn't) because it meets a narrative already established in their head, so they don't bother fact checking it.

Your little picture here, which you have said, "Back in the 80's an edition of Starlog discussed GL's broad ideas for a future ST featuring an old Luke. The one Mark Hamill has often discussed:"

You know this pic of a single paragraph from a Starlog magazine:




Yeah, that pic, and your assertion that it "discussed GL's broad ideas for a future ST featuring an old Luke", did nothing of the sort!! LMFAO, the article that this pic is from is written by a freelance writer for StarLog, and it is his opinion and basic fanboy wishlist of what we might see in the Prequels and Sequels... LMAO, at one point he discusses how Luke had to have spent time on Dagobah.

What is the source of this writers opinions about the Sequel? His own multiple viewings of the OT... LMAO.... No mention of this information even coming from Lucas, from notes of Lucas, from interviews of Lucas etc etc... The writer says:

"So it is that the following notes are presented, collected over repeated viewings of the three Star Wars films, as a review of several topics and details which should not be forgotten:"

LMAO... I love it...
By all means, please take the time to read the article yourself it is in the July 1987 issue of StarLog, Issue 120, the Star Wars 10th Anny issue in fact.

https://archive.org/stream/starlog_magazine-120/120#page/n57/mode/2up

then continued on page 96

https://archive.org/stream/starlog_magazine-120/120#page/n95/mode/2up

So your basically quoting some fanboy from the late 80's giving his idea about what the ST will behold and attributing it as a discussion about GL broad ideas.... Thanks for the laughs...

So now that I can breath again...

You think that if Lucas somehow was going to have a FO in his treatments, that you would have some kind of silver bullet, and I would have to backpeddle. Nope, If it comes to be true that the FO was derived from Lucas, and Lucas planned on giving them same exact look that we see in TFA, I would say the same thing about his idea. That he was fan pandering, and it was un-imaginative. I have quite a few times schooled your brethren up in the TFA forums who want to paint me as a Lucas-purist that won't be critical of Lucas... You would be wrong..

Now here's why I think that the FO was not a Lucas idea.



1) Information from Abrams, that in fact you have used yourself to try and show that the FO works 30 years after the events of ROTJ:

http://www.empireonline.com/movies/news/jj-abrams-spills-details-kylo-ren/

The idea came out of conversations... Not from GL's treatments. Seeing how when Abrams and Kasdan took over writing duties from Arndt, Disney had already trashed Lucas's treatments, month and months prior, the conversations that were being had, wouldn't have been about Lucas's treatments. It is telling that Abams says it was ideas that came out of conversations and not treatments. By this time, I would imagine that Lucas had split from his consulting...



2)The Comic Con Panel:



About the 13 minute mark Abrams is asked what influences were used in writing TFA, and this is where he used the "what delights us" line. However, he also said they used the movies, espeically 4, 5, and 6... but... no mention of Lucas's treatments.... nothing... He mentions what delights him, he mentions the preceding movies, but.... not Lucas's treatments?

Unless you actually have a quote from Abrams detailing that he did use Lucas's treatments as the basis of the FO...

However, this time please make sure to fact check it and not to just copy and paste single paragraphs from full articles without knowing what the article actually said... Unless you did know, and you were being dishonest, but, only you know the truth of that...

 

What makes it an insult?

The only person you quote there directly involved in the writing is Lawrence Kasdan. Important to note that this is the first Star Wars movie that Lawrence Kasdan has written outside the influence and direction of a certain George Lucas. I don't know why you continue to ignore this undeniably important distinction.

You're actually the one bordering on being disrespectful by implying that all fan fiction is "average". Why must that be the case?

It seems to be only you who thinks it is insulting and demeaning. I've written loads of fan fiction in my time, Star Wars or otherwise. Imagine for a second that Disney were to pick up a particularly impressive fan script and use it. Would we be justified in suddenly thinking that it ceases to be fan fiction?

 

I think I speak for the whole crew when I say we are happy to have you!

 

This is the one thing that bothers me most about this. Either they aren't allowed (yet?) to say that they used (some of) Lucas' story outlines or they flat out didn't. And they most likely didn't if we're judging from the words you alluded to. Arndt's credit is probably our last hope at this point.

But I'm not gonna let that get in the way of my enjoyment of the film, I'd just feel better if there was at least some official confirmation that some of Lucas' ideas survived the process. Yeah, his ideas aren't infallible, but I'd feel a lot safer in his hands, so to speak.

 

Abrams: "From my POV CGI is Evil"

Lucas: "THAN YOU ARE LOST!!!!!!!!!!"

I couldn't help it.

 

I was thinking Anakin and Kylo tbh. I would be fine with Anakin and Luke. I could care less what "controversy" that may be caused. Star Wars is filled with convenient connections and I'd be okay with that. I was raised in the prequel Era so no matter what, Hayden is Anakin to me.

 

I want to see a GIF of that!

 

That's not the definition of fanfiction. Fanfiction is simply "fiction written by a fan of, and featuring characters from, a particular TV series, movie, etc." or to use the Wikipedia definition "Fan fiction or fanfiction (also abbreviated to fan fic, fanfic or fic) is fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator." I would propose that the "rather than" in this case is important in that it shows that people are turning to a fan-created product in place of (or in addition to/supplementing) the creator's canon.

Being licensed and part of the legitimate production has never been a guarantor of canonicity, even by your definition. If having a corporation dictate to you what is and isn't canon is important, please remember that Paramont Pictures "owners of the Star Trek franchise, considers only live-action television and film productions to be canon." So would you say that Trek books are canon, even though Paramont Pictures does not consider them to be so? The Trek books are legitimately produced after all. If you do consider them canon, then anything a corporation (such as Lucasfilm or Paramont) says regarding canonicty can be discarded. If you don't consider them canon, though, then your definition of canonicity as being part of the "legitimate production" falls apart.

I think what many here are arguing is that the corporation of Lucasfilm/Disney saying that something is canon doesn't mean anything to them -- you're allowed to of course. But I do think a lot of people still follow the canonicity according to "G(George Lucas) canon is absolute canon. This category includes the final releases of the six films, the novelizations of the films, theradio dramasbased on the films, the film scripts, and any material found in any other source (published or not) that comes directly from George Lucas himself.Gcanon outranks all other forms of canon." Or, simply put, anything that George Lucas says takes precedence. For my part, George Lucas' direct involvement is what I consider canon (though I recognize that this isn't necessarily something everyone agrees with me on).

The fact that George Lucas produced his own treatments of TFA that were subsequently thrown out is what is, I believe, causing a lot of people to declare TFA noncanon. It's because since, to them, George's word and ideas are the hard and fast canon, anything that comes into conflict with that is deemed noncanon and thus fanfiction.

If George Lucas had never written anything for TFA and just said "go to town, do whatever you want," I think the issue of canonicity would be far less relevant. Or if he had contributed to the story (as he has with every other preceding film - being credited at least as a writer/producer),

But the situation we have in TFA is that we have a work about characters and a setting from George Lucas' original work of fiction that is created by fans of the work rather than it's creator. And, to a lot of people, that is the very definition of fanfiction. That Disney, according to Lucas, "They decided they didn't want to use those stories, they decided they were gonna do their own thing." That right there is the sticking point for many people.

To say that calling it fanfiction is an insult, though, is odd to me. Fanfiction spans a huge range in quality and some of it is very, very good. Even better than canon. To use an easy example, Twilight currently has over 213,000 fanfictions posted on Fanficton.net and I would certainly put money down on a large percentage of those being better than the terrible canon novel.

 

It is odd.

I would love to ask him what he actually means by "slick."

To me it's easily the most powerful, roughest, rawest, aggressive and most emotional.

The only thing that strikes me is that he isn't invested in the characters and therefore only sees the moves and spectacle themselves not the characters and relationships.

On the other hand they are good for a laugh!

When I think of all the time these people spend desperately trying to convince themselves and those who already agree with them about why it is they agree it does make it utterly bizarre.

Just listening to some of his commentary he displays not an ounce of knowledge about storytelling. He can't possibly regard that film-makers actually know more about this than he does!!

For whatever reason you make a specific "PT fans" reference like somehow that is another small block group of fans the equal and opposite of the "OT fans" ie each group only loves those films and despises the others. In all the years of observing fans I have never found that "PT fan" group to ever actually exist in any equivalent numbers to the OT ones.

What the "PT fans" are is Star Wars fans of all of the movies (to which degree for each is up to the individual).

The larger point is that they enjoy ALL of the movies. The "OT fans" don't seem to. If anything the really severe fraction of that group only see 2 movies and have been waiting 35 years for another and hope that TFA will be that one or something close to it.

So the "PT fans" who are into 6 movies are already 3 (or 4) ahead of the "OT fans" and very likely will soon be still 3 or 4 (or maybe 5?) movies ahead of them.

Going back to my earlier point about JJ (or anyone for that matter) if for whatever reason you don't connect to the story or characters then that is what it is for you.

IIRC JJ talks about the impact the ANH and TESB duels made on him (not ROTJ apparently?) and so he was invested. Now obviously if he doesn't feel the same kind of investment in the PT characters then it's only going to be solely about the movement which as excellent as it is comes off as just that without the characters to drive it.

I am invested in the characters therefore I am invested in the duels.

 

I agree. To me, there's not a moment in the Saga more rough, raw, and aggressive than this:



There are moments in the Saga that equal it in power and emotion, but not in terms of raw aggression. In my opinion, at least.

There's so much raw anger and bitterness and disappointment. These are men who knew each other for years and had such a conflicted relationship that just completely imploded.

 

Lucas sold SW to Disney and put KK in charge.
And do we even know if there was a clause in the deal that they had to use the Lucas treatments?
Sounds legitimate and not fan-fic imo.

 

Quite honestly, I've reached a breaking point in which I'm not even sure If I wish to even watch the movie.

I can't stand anymore the comments on JJ about how he wants to "recapture the magic of the OT" by making the lightsaber fights the same as the OT, the planetary environments the same as the OT, the characters mere analogies to others of the OT, etc, etc, etc.

Even Rebels, which is set on the period of the OT and took many of the unused McQuarrie concepts, seems more original in execution than TFA.

I guess as George said, it's time to move forward.

 

It's the only duel in the saga that can put tears in my eyes. It gets even better if you watch TCW. I'm getting sad just typing this. I guess the only thing I could compare it to would be if I had to fight my brother in a duel to the death.