ST Lightsaber Combat in the ST

Prequel fights look like dances. To me.

If they look good to you, that's fine, and that's your opinion. But to me, they do look like dances, and that's a fact.

And to get back on topic, TFA duel looked like a fight, not like a dance. That's why I liked it much more than PT duels.

Please, please, keep the fights in the next films as realistic as TFA! More controlled, more finesse and skill as the fighters grow and learn, I have no problem with that, but don't give us any more saber dances!

 

So youre saying that Rey is the Jason Bourne of the Star Wars saga?

 

If you've ever seen actual fencing or even mma, when two skilled combatants face off it's very much a dance.

 

Im not saying that, though now that you brought it up I can kinda see why you would think so.

iv just noticed a few people being upset that ren lost the saber fight. I was just trying to give some valid examples of why he may have. He was wounded, emotionally compromised, and over confident. I don't take he took the fights seriously until after finn got lucky with his hit and then again until rey started attacking there at the end of the fight

 

You are and you do. The camera remains at a medium distance from the duelists at most times, and there are some stunningly shot wide shots of Rey getting hammered into the ground that really give a sense of impact to the battle.

 

How good of a duelist should we think Rey is prior to the scene?

 

This can't be more wrong. MMA is two people smashing each other's faces and ribs in or grappling them and bringing them to the ground. A "dance" is the furthest thing from what a MMA match is.

Even in fencing, the moves are precise and economical, not flamboyant and wasteful. Flashy twirling of a foil is a good way to leave it out of place and leave yourself open to attack.

 

I really don't know what that means.

They are ALL stylized. Every single one of them is choreographed etc.

The only way I can think of to apply the "stylized" term is that Nick Gillard specifically came up with styles that each duelist would use within the duels to tell the story. So in-universe Obi-Wan fought a certain way as did Mace, Yoda as well as Anakin then Vader etc.

So to have a style that is not so specific but more generic would be less "stylized". Meaning that Rey and Ren or whomever would basically look more the same than different.

As I have said many times I don't see this "lack of style" per se. Trying to compare the 3 duels in the OT (with a total of 3 combatants) to the PT really doesn't work well either in story or simply from a behind the scenes perspective as obviously they simply were doing things a bit differently in terms of production.

As the ESPN special noted though it still comes down to Kendo as the base.

In-universe story terms it all works out quite well in terms of what we actually see. Vader and Obi-Wan on the Death Star is not so totally far away from what would happen in a similar venue as we saw with Anakin and Dooku in AOTC or ROTS.

Between Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Mace, Yoda, Anakin, Maul, Dooku, Sidious and Vader it'd be odd that so many combatants of this power level would not have a variety of styles for a variety of story telling over 3 movies and a number of duels. IIRC there are about 11 duels in the PT with the above 9 combatants as opposed to 3 with 3 in the OT.

 

But how do you smash someone else's face when that person is just as highly trained, has excellent footwork and head movement? You must dance around them, fake, jab, duck, weave, bob. It is very much a dance. And from your input on the subject I question if you've ever watched a high level MMA match...

 

On the "dancing" subject: All fights are basically a dance. At least professionally. They require rhythm, foot work and excellent coordination. And most importantly a partner. In most cases the fighter who wins a fight is a person who "dances" the best. Unless people want a street brawl. A ugly, uncoordinated mess of fists and feet, where the fight is most likely unbalanced. We got a little of that in ESB and TFA, the fights portrayed an un-even confrontation between the characters because that was what the story was trying to tell. However, for the most part, we got brilliant choreography. Dancing. Calculated, rhythmic movement. The fights were also not short of "flash" either. Luke did a little flashy spin, did a force jump, climbed that severed cable like a monkey. Vader spun the saber out of Luke's hand and glided off those steps to curb-stomp his son. In TFA, Ren was doing plenty of flashy spin moves and saber twirls. Rey was able to maneuver out of that rocky trench like a boss. I thought it was a good mix of different things. I enjoyed it overall. It's what the fight needed to be. Jedi newbie's, testing out their chops. The fights will improve and become more finessed like the PT I'm sure. That's where it naturally has to go. However, I believe it will be its own thing for sure. They can't be like the Jedi of the past. It's like trying to be like your father or grandfather. It's not going to happen. At least not 100%. It just better be good haha. I love all the lightsaber duels by the way. My favorite part of Star Wars.

I will also add that a fight can also be won by patience. Waiting for an opportune moment to strike. As seen with Obi-wan and how he wins his battles.

 

Actually I have, and it's the furthest thing from "dancing". The thing is, ducking, weaving, and dodging serves a purpose. The dance like qualities of the PT saber fights only serve to look flashy, not to strike an opponent. Twirling around like a pretty ballerina (like Obi Wan does multiple times in TPM) only helps to open your back to a strike. Likewise, PT duels consist pretty much entirely of blows that clearly aren't aimed at the other person's body that clash noisily but lack any impact, until one combatant is suddenly struck with a case of paralysis and stands still to be struck a disabling or killing blow.

In contrast, the duelists in TFA act like they are holding swords, not light up batons. This lends to a menace that is decidedly not phantom, and a real sense of weight and danger.

 

That's sn excellent question. I think if Ren hadn't just destroyed his father, hadn't been wounded, and actually took the fight seriously then he wins. Perhaps looking outside universe for a moment for Rey, I don't know the canon ratio of time in the star wars universe, but could we imagine its just like real time and then can we imagine at least 5 years of life on that planet as a scavenger. If she had to defend herself once every 30 days I would imagine she would be capable of defending herself. I don't know how that translates to being a capable duelist with a lightsaber. would a sword style and staff style have some similar "moves" for attacking and defence?

 

Unsurprisingly, the most vocal PT defenders hate TFA and/or think it's "just a standard blockbuster." Big surprise.

And so, the tired and useless OT vs. PT battle will become an OT/ST vs. PT battle.

If we let it.

It would be much better if we could talk about the ST in a more in-depth way. The imagery, the characters, the story, and what it all means. Let's try to do that, instead of recreating the same old fights of the past decade and a half.

 

Just got back from a second viewing and the duel is still my favorite scene in the movie (followed closely by Han's death, which is fantastic). It's flawlessly directed from start to finish, the photography is beautiful, it's full of emotion (something the prequel fights lacked immensely) and I loooooove what little we get to see of Kylo's "style." It's raw, savage, and when he slashes Finn (I also love how he sets up the strike by straight up decking him, it's so medieval European) it looks absolutely BRUTAL.

Trees toppling, geysers of steam shooting up from lightsabers contacting snow (including Kylo's hissy fits they did an EXCELLENT job throughout the film of making lightsabers look HOT and extremely DANGEROUS) and even the way a chunk of Kylo's robe drops off is just so well executed I just...just... *sigh*

It was the first thing I said after exiting the theater the first time, and my opinion hasn't changed: "Man, those lightsabers looked SOOOO GOOOD." *big **** eating grin*

 

That's the beauty of it. A lightsaber is not a sword. Swings and parry's are meant to get your opponent to expose themselves, because hacking directly at them is too elementary to be effective. In my opinion that's what the duel in TFA came across as. Amateurs hacking away.

 

That's me on the right.


That's me on the left.


On the left.


Me again.


Me, leaping from the quarterdeck with a sword in each hand.


Fighting 2 on 1 takes quick footwork.


Me in the middle.


Victor in a spear match.


XIVth century Italian longsword techniques.


4 vs 1. My defeat was glorious.


"Indian knife fight" vs a giant (He's 6'6", all muscle and bone, and way too fast for someone that big). Another glorious defeat.


In the stripey pants, holding the line and fighting left-handed after losing my right arm.


Cutlass and belaying pin. I was voted best-dressed fighter on the field that day.


Rapier duel on a giant seesaw. Makes you very aware of your footwork.


Bottom center in the red & black surcoat with the white prancing ram.


Spear techniques of medieval Italian soldier Fiore di Liberi.


Knife fight. Not a dance.


I could go on with more pics, but I think y'all get the idea now. I started fencing in 1984, moved on to medieval heavy combat (mostly sword & shield, some spear, and bastard sword), then Renaissance rapier combat (single rapier, rapier & dagger, rapier & cloak, rapier & buckler, dual rapiers, dual daggers, dagger & buckler, cloak & dagger, rapier & madu, rapier & baton), adapted most of those to cut & thrust competition, then I started seriously studying 14th century Italian combat techniques (unarmed, dagger, spear, and longsword, armored and unarmored) with the Schola St George. Also a little training with the sword and buckler techniques of MS I.33, a 12th century German fechtbook and the oldest known martial arts manuscript.



So, yeah, I have seen actual fencing.

 

I could agree with the 'previous training' speculation if not for one small detail: She was dumped on Jakku when she was 5 years old. That obviously means that all of her training happened when she was 4 years old and younger. From everything that I've ever read, initiates don't learn mind-tricking or practice saber dueling that young. They're just getting their feet wet with the Force at that age. What Rey displayed was something that comes with many years of guidance and training.

IMO, there's only 3 ways that they can go with this, and all are far-fetched space magic.

1) She was at Luke's academy, and was a prodigy, doing things that have never come close to being done in the history of ever; Mastering the Force at 3-years old, besting Master Luke in saber dueling at 4-years old, becoming the most powerful Jedi ever by 4.5 years old.
2) She was being trained on Jakku, and getting her memory wiped after every session.
3) She was a Force puppet. When she touched Akakin's light saber, the Force embodied her and acted through her. Until then, she never had any abilities or past training. Immaculate Forception.. and she just.... 'knew'... how to mind-probe, use telekinesis, mind-trick fools, and duel like a seasoned Jedi. That would kind of go against what Obi-Wan said in ANH, about how the Force couldn't take over people.

I'm curious what explanation they come up with ep VIII.

 

The 'dancing' fights are soooooooo much more entertaining to watch

 

A lightsaber is exactly a sword. And the point of creating openings in the enemy's defense is that you don't simultaneously create a hole in your own defense, which is what the PT duelists do all the time.

The duel in TFA is actually heavily influenced by European long sword fencing. That part where Rey grapples with Ren's saber wrist and wrestles the blade into the snow is basically something right out of a manual.

 

Touchy

 

Competitive Fencing is a game, not a fight. We have lots of historical refernces for actual sword fighting. Fiore, Talhoffer, not to mention Kenjitsu. Real fights tend to be brutal affairs. The PT fights appealed to some, but I found them a bit over the top and too obviously choreographed. I still liked them, but I prefer the smashmouth style of TFA.

 

Yup. Loved it.

That's a matter of opinion. I preferred the TFA fight to every fight in the PT

 

The PT was definitely not kendo, the amount of times they twirled and spun around exposing their backs would be considered sacrileges by experts and the offender would be burned as a heretic

 

The OT was kind of kendo. I've heard that the PT duels were inspired by wuxia, but that always makes me wonder if people who say that have ever seen a wuxia movie in their lives.

 

Why are people comparing earthly, normal human mundane sports like fencing and MMA to ultra-trained, powerful Force user combat techniques?