CT What is wrong with Hayden as Anakin in the end scene of Return of the Jedi

YODA: "Much anger in him, like his father."

OBI-WAN: "Was I any different when you taught me?"

Merely having anger in him doesn't make Anakin evil, otherwise Obi-wan would when he was doing this...



Obi-wan had anger in his childhood and over time, he slowly grew out of it. Anakin having anger as a boy, before he received any Jedi training, doesn't mean that he was destined to fall. Or had a mean streak to him. Remember, Luke had anger issues as well and we've seen how he's turned out.



As to the Tusken slaughter, Anakin wasn't evil yet. He had committed an evil act, but he had not made the choice to be evil afterwards. And Lucas has never said that Anakin Skywalker was ever a shining example of what a Jedi should be. Even in the third and fourth drafts of ANH, Lucas never wrote that Anakin was a paragon of virtue. Just that he was a good friend, a cunning warrior and a great star pilot. Obi-wan wasn't the only one who saw the good in him. Padme, Qui-gon, Shmi and Ahsoka did as well. There was good within him. He was just conflicted his whole life and manipulated by the devil himself.

The prophecy never stated that the Chosen One would be a paragon of virtue. Nor that he would make bad choices. All the prophecy said was that Anakin would destroy the Sith and restore the balance. He was not supposed to be Jesus Christ.

Anakin and Dooku were two Jedi who fell to the dark side. It is there all the time. Everyone has to face it. The darkness is within them. Even Mace was prone to losing control as he did in Palpatine's office. There is no such thing as a normal Jedi. What there is are Jedi who must constantly face their inner darkness while trying to stay within the light.

There was a good man in there. The good man who saved his life multiple times. The good man who he raised like a son. The man that he bantered with and fought alongside through thick and thin. The good man who saw him as a father and as a dear friend. A good man that he lied for and protected his secrets.

As to the two identities, both the Jedi and Sith see the latter as dual identities. Palpatine only calls Dooku by his birth name when he's playing Chancellor Palpatine. When he's Darth Sidious, he calls him Lord Tyranus or Apprentice. He never uses Anakin's real name after he anoints him as Darth Vader. He either refers to him as Lord Vader or your father. Yoda addresses Palpatine as Emperor or Darth Sidious once he knows the truth.

 

The problem here is that there's a pretty wide gulf between "paragon of virtue" and "mass murderer". And when someone massacres dozens of innocent women and children in cold blood, one of the evil things imaginable, he is no longer in the moral grey area, he is evil. Hell, Revenge of the Sith even demonstrated how evil and far-gone Anakin was by having him murder innocent children, the exact same thing he did in Attack of the Clones, only this time it was actually treated as the horrendous irredeemable crime it should be.

What's really terrible is how after seeing how Luke was about to fall to the Dark Side of the Force for almost killing Darth Vader in the heat of a duel in Return of the Jedi, we're supposed to believe Anakin murdering innocent children to satiate his bloodlust was not the point he went to the Dark Side. So the Tusken massacre not being the turning point doesn't just cheapen Anakin's character arc, it cheapens every other moment in Star Wars when a Jedi comes close to the Dark Side but resists its allure. If Anakin didn't immediately start cackling and shooting lightning bolts after becoming a mass murderer, there's no way Luke would have fallen for cutting down one of the galaxy's greatest monsters who was just trying to kill him a minute ago.

The Tusken massacre is the worst scene in Attack of the Clones and the worst scene in any Star Wars movie. It is so bad I have to pretend it doesn't exist to enjoy anything heroic Anakin does in The Clone Wars or Episode 3.

 

I don't think the dark side - light side divide is as simple as RPG games like KOTOR make it out to be. Its not just about negative emotions or an immoral act. The sides of the Force are power sources that a force sensitive draws upon. For Luke that moment was in his duel against Darth Vader for Anakin it was attacking the Jedi Temple. It's that moment when you say damn the consequences and deicde to do whatever it takes. Its not so much about anything outside so much as the inside. Two different people can do seemingly the same act and have different alignment consequences unlike in rpgs.

Luke was going to do whatever it takes and use whatever power at his disposal to accomplish his goals. He was losing the fight when he suddenly turns it around and starts dominating. What brought about this change? It was his fury at Vader's threat towards Leia. Luke wanted to do to whatever it took to stop Vader including killing him. What started sensibly and rationaly turned into manic smasing his lightsaber against Vader's. The dark side was heavily tainting him here. Lets try to remember that at the beginning of the fight Luke wanted to save Vader, and now he has done a 180. Luke isn't having the rational and sorrowful resolve of Obi-Wan in ROTS; he is running off of pure anger and hatred that is what brought about this much change.

What Anakin did to the Tusken's was terrible but it was more lashing out. To me it undoubtedly began his fall to the dark side. Anakin was angry and he wanted the Tusken's dead that was all that happened.

The negative emotions are the source of the dark side in two ways I think. When one draws upon ones negative emotions for strength that is using the dark side. Additionally, there is the dark side in general which calls to any force user, but perhaps calls more loudly or strongly when one is emotionally compromised. In a way wayward or negative emotions lower inhibitions to the dark side and make its siren call more powerful.

 

But again, there is a difference. We can label Anakin as evil for what he did with the Tuskens, but that is not the same as actually being evil. He still made the choice to be a Jedi and to try his best to uphold those ideals. He didn't go around acting like he did in ROTS, when he turned. He still felt some remorse and he did show that he had a good side to him. When he chose to be a Sith, he was making an effort to be evil and he was succeeding more and more as he went. With the Tuskens, Anakin surrendered himself to his rage and lashed out. In the Temple and in the Mustafar control room, Anakin made a cold and calculated decision to kill. He wasn't overcome with grief and lashing out. He made a choice to do what he did, knowing full well the consequences of his actions if he failed.

Anakin was resisting the urge to be evil following his actions. Palpatine needed to give Anakin a reason to submit and not hold back. Luke, on the other hand, was pushed to the breaking point where he would submit. That's why Luke is the way he is in ROTJ. Why he's dressed in black, why he choked the Gammoreans, why he grabbed a blaster to threaten Jabba with, etc. Luke was walking a tightrope.

Also, remember that when Anakin turns, he does so because he thinks that he needs to save Padme. When Luke lashes out against Vader, it is because he wants to protect Leia. Both are willing to embrace the dark side, because of someone that they care for. That is the trigger that is required.

 

The biggest difference between Anakin and Luke is that when they each lost control, they reacted very differently. When Anakin lost control, he ends up slaughtering an entire village of sand people, and then cries that he couldn't save his mother later on, feeling that had he been MORE powerful that he could have prevented her death. He's not just selfish and cruel, but you could claim that Anakin tasted the Dark Side right there on Tattoine - and liked it. When Luke lost control on the second Death Star, he disarms Vader in an act of selfless rage. He then almost immediately realizes the implications of his actions, and where'd they'd lead him, and he chooses that he'd rather die than become his father. That's the biggest difference between Anakin and Luke. Anakin is selfish rage, Luke is selfless rage. Luke is a better Jedi than Anakin could have ever hoped to be. Is there a perfect Jedi? No. Are there qualities of a Jedi that should always be looked for? Yes: Kindness, compassion, serenity, knowledge, selflessness, patience. Anakin is none of these things. He's cruel, uncaring, unpredictable, selfish, and impatient. Luke displays many of these qualities by the Battle of Endor. That's what makes him a good Jedi.

 

The only thing I disagree with is your distinction between Anakin's rage and Luke's rage. I don't think there's much difference between them. I don't think Luke's rage is "selfless". "Selfless rage" is almost an oxymoron.

 

By "selfless rage" I meant that Luke went into a fury on the Death Star, chopping off Vader's hand, because Vader had threatened his friends, particularly Leia. In fact, the only time we see Luke engaging in violence is for selflessness. He exchanges fire with Stormtroopers to rescue Leia. He destroys the first Death Star to prevent countless Star systems from suffering the same fate as Aldaraan. He takes out a Wampa only in self defense. He rides into battle on Hoth to give the Alliance a chance to escape the Imperial fleet. He engages Darth Vader on Bespin hoping to save Han and Leia. He destroys Jabba while saving Han and Leia (and it's not like he didn't give Jabba a chance, either. He went in there unarmed!). He fights some Scout troopers on Endor, protecting himself. He (reluctantly) duels Vader, hoping to give the Alliance time to destroy the shield generator and the second Death Star. He confronts the Emperor, all the while pleaing for his father to turn away from the Dark. The only time we actually see him lose his temper is when facing Fake Vader in the cave on Dagobah, and Yoda tells him straight up that he failed that test.

Meanwhile, Anakin has a lot of moments of unjustifiable anger. He thinks Obi-Wan is holding him back, he thinks Obi-Wan isn't a good teacher, he blames himself for not being powerful enough to stp his mother from dieing. He turns Sith to prevent Padme from dieing rather than accepting a situation may be beyond his control.

 

The reason Luke didn't do the exact same thing that his father did, was that in ANH, he wasn't even trained yet. As Obi-wan points out to Luke when he contemplates leaving, Luke was in a dangerous place right now. He was still in the middle of his training. He could feel the Force now, but he could not control it and he would be tempted by the dark side as his father had been. But in ANH, Luke had no training on Tatooine. So his response was that of anyone else in his situation. Anakin, though, was different. He had been training for ten years and had become arrogant due to his powers, as Obi-wan pointed out. He thought he was the best there was and wasn't taking his training seriously. And also, he had been motivated by fear for his mother. First when he left and then right before returning, he was again afraid. Luke wasn't afraid for his family other than feeling guilty for leaving them in a lurch. When Luke left home, as he said, there was nothing for him. Nothing to hold him back. His attachments were gone. Anakin had his mother left behind and he was very attached to her.

So when his attachment was threatened, he reacted in the only way that made sense to him. He let his anger and hate consume him. He let his emotions and the Force control him, not that he controlled them. It is why Vader tortured Han like he did, knowing that Luke had an attachment to the people aboard the Falcon and thus he would be compelled to come for them, just as he was compelled to come for his mother.

Further, while Luke did things selflessly, he was also doing things that were selfish. His whole reasoning for going to Cloud City and for attacking the Sith was that he was motivated by fear. Fear for his attachments. He couldn't let go of Han and Leia, so he went there and endangered himself when his friends were willing to die for him. And his whole reason for taking up arms was that he couldn't let the Alliance die, because he was afraid to lose them. He couldn't accept that if it was their destiny to fail, then it was. If they were to succeed, then they would. So Luke wasn't always perfect. The difference is that he finally understood whereas his father didn't until much later.

 

Actually I have no problem with Anakin retconned into ROTJ. I just don't know yet how Vader perceived the knowledge to turn into a force-ghost after taking off his helmet in front of Luke. Surely not from Sidious

Did Obi-Wan's force-ghost taught him secretly when Sidious wasn't around? Or Qui-Gon? I recall a faint memory to have red something like this but I'm not sure. Any hints?

Thank you!

And a good passage into New Year to you all!

 

I'd say it's possible his sheer power as the chosen one guaranteed his force ghost status by default.

 

How did Luke get guidance from Obi Wans force ghost at the end of ANH? Yoda had to train Obi Wan to be able to communicate with Qui Gons force ghost.

 

This is never stated or implied what so ever in the film. How did you come to that conclusion?

 

You're right. We're never told anything about how he becomes a force ghost. So it's guesswork on my part.

 

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

"This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

As to Luke learning to communicate with Obi-wan, that's something that he helped him do while training him on the Falcon. Yoda himself had discovered how to communicate with Qui-gon by accident.

 

Creepy Anakin very much ruins the feel good feeling for me.

 

If Hayden comes back in a future movie, it will further legitimise the latest edit of ROTJ as the official, final cut, regardless of what people think and feel about the matter.

 

And if Plagueis really will show up as the Uber-villain in the ST, you may see even a hazy force-ghost-image of the old Muun at the end of ROTJ right next to the force-ghost of his creation Anakin.

 

Before it irked me; now I'm indifferent towards the change.

 

Ha! Never gonna happen

 

Nothing

 

I still prefer the Shaw ghost myself, but maybe they could've had a close-up, translucent shot of Hayden's face, smiling sadly [maybe even tearing up] over the final shot where everyone is standing together. Or during the sequences showing the other parts of the galaxy celebrating. Such a shot might have worked if it was done over a longer sequence for Naboo, that being the home planet of his wife during his younger years.

 

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

Wish Lucas had felt the same. It's fine to remaster the picture, or fix special effects, but it should've been left at that.

 

Holy frig, you're PSYCHIC?! Tell me next week's winning numbers!

 

Never really bothered me until I thought of it as disrespectful towards Shaw.