ST The Romantic Future of Kylo Ren and Rey

That's a very good point !

 

I want to thank @ Berhan for posting a really interesting article on the star wars posters and the hades- persephone analogy....when I examined the posters, I noticed some intriguing similarities to mythology/mysticismalchemy in them....and there are some patterns that seem to be followed through most of them....I'm largely sticking to the standard movie posters (there are some artistic variations but if I go into those, I'll go crazy)....anyway, this is only an observation..... I could be totally off the mark, of course.....

Before, I start....we know that the SW is heavily inspired by the mythology of different cultures across the world particularly Greek, Egyptian and Norse....so I'll be bringing in examples of mythical characters and tales to explain my view. Also, the Star Wars saga was supposed to span 12 episodes (like the zodiac/months) but now it might become 9 only after Disney took over (which is still alright since 9 represents the number of completion in numerology).....now for the observations......

First, I see one common pattern in the 7 episode's posters: the Death and Re-birth of God motif.
Now within that motif, we'll explore other mystic beliefs as well such as the triple Goddess (maiden, mother, crone)...



Let me start with Episodes 1-3.... (God lives, loves, dies)

Episode 1 - The protagonist....for simplicity we can say Annakin is like the Egyptian God Osiris who is a child of the sun (read: the force)....like in the motif, the God is born.....the Goddess/ the moon is the maiden at this stage (note the white face and reddened lips, and she is turned to the right) and Obiwan is like a guardian of the mysteries, holding his lightsaber vertically (this will be relevant later). Qui Gon Jinn is on the top right side alone...I've noticed when a figure is prominently placed there and alone, they don't usually survive (as we'll see later)....Darth Maul, the big bad, is looming in the center of the background.

Episode 2 - The God (Sun) and the Goddess (now the bride with her loose hair and transitioning to the mother stage) are central to the poster and have wed....Obiwan remains at his place as a guardian. Now an interesting note: In Norse mythology, the God Tyr sacrifices his hand to the wolf for the sake of peace....isn't it strange that jedi seem to lose their lightsaber hand a lot?)... Luke also hangs upside down in that ice cave and used the force to call his lightsaber to him.....which reminded me of how Odin hug upside down from the world tree for wisdom....

Episode 3- The God is dead (Annakin is gone).... Osiris has been killed by his brother Set (Sith?).....he has been dismembered like what happened to Osiris (remember what happened int he fight with Obiwan), wears his death mask and descends into the underworld (now he has transformed into Vader/death God)...Now Vader looms large in the middle of the background..... Mace Windu has taken the place of the guardian holding up the lightsaber... he tried to stand up to Darth Sidious but failed. The Goddess has transitioned into the crone/waning moon....she is also dead as can be seen from her egyptian funerary looking attire...in another poster, she wears a veil on her head....this signifies her death in either case.




Now Episodes 4-6.... (God's time in the Underworld)

Episode 4: The God (Osiris) is still in the underworld, but his son Luke (let us call him Horus for convenience) has been hidden away just like in the myth. Horus has one golden eye representing the sun and one silver for the moon (Now Luke and Leia are twins so kind of like the sun and the moon.... of course, Luke will end up using his force powers while Leia will largely avoid it).....here Leia is the Goddess and the maiden (remember the cute girly bun hairdo)...Han is the guardian here with his blaster in one poster and Luke in the other...but in this episode itself you can see that Han is meant to be Leia's love interest because they're always looking in the same direction here and in all subsequent posters (barring one where he is doing the now notorious "bridal carry" pose and they're looking at each other)....Luke sometimes looks in the same direction as them but not always.... Vader still looms large back and center. Now Obiwan has taken Qui Gon Jinn's place in one poster (and we know what happens to him)

Episode 5: The Goddess (now moving into bride with her hair loose) has chosen a love but he is mortal (no mortal and Goddess pairing ends well.....look at Venus and Adonis, Selene and Endymion etc......it never ends well.....death, eternal sleep....carbonite....all the same....frankly, this should have clued us to the fact Han Solo would not live very long). ...Luke is the guardian in this case (upright lightsaber).

Episode 6: Vader still looms large as God (Osiris) is still in the underworld and he is still bad...but if you look in the older version of the poster, the death star is looming behind him which shows that the Empire is the main bad character and he is moving towards redemption....In one poster, Luke is the large figure in the middle with the deathstar in the background....but I believe it adds up as even Luke almost joined the dark side but finally chose not to in this episode.....Lando and his blaster take the place of the guardian (remember how he led the resistance planes to destroy the deathstar?) Leia has moved to the right but hasn't fully turned away like Padme....I think the burden of divinity has now fallen on the shoulders of Luke (one Gold and one silver eye, remember?) and like Horus, he defeats Osiris's enemy Set so that Osiris can return... (Annakin can see his son's face a final time)... now the story should end here...but the God hasn't left the underworld... so the arc isn't complete yet....



And now we have Episode 7- 9 (Re-emergence of God)

Episode 7: To me, this was one extremely powerful poster......first, there are two triangles in the picture (in previous posters, there are triangles formed by characters but not as blatantly as this one)....triangles, especially upright ones depict the fire element....so within this "Fire", we have Han and Leia (estranged but looking in the same direction so still attached to one another).....we have Finn in the guardian place (but his light saber points downwards unlike others....I think it might means the lightsaber being with him is a red herring....as we now know, it went to Rey...or that Rey really didn't want a guardian)... The starkiller base looms in the background centre...I don't see a Goddess in her usual position (maybe Leia would have qualified if she stood alone but she is positioned behind Han so wont qualify)....now for my favourite part..... Rey and Kylo Ren.....

First Kylo seems to have taken the position of the big bad...but he is not exactly in the center and facing forward like the previous bad characters....he is to the side and looking sideways... I think (now that Vader is dead and can't exactly emerge from the underworld) Kylo has donned the death mask and taken up the role of the underworld God (he wants to be Vader).....he is bad but not quite there yet....Now for Rey..... she is mirroring his pose exactly and they're facing the same direction (still too early to call it a romance but there is definitely something there).... their dress and weapons colour scheme is reddish-yellow, white and black....now in alchemy, the philosophers stone is made in 4 stages (sometimes considered 3)- black stage, white stage and yellow-red stage)... in alchemy, the sun and moon (actual terms) must unite and go through all three stages to attain perfection....it is equated with a journey through the underworld.....the black stage means there will be shadows, monsters, facing dangerous initiation tests (sounds familiar?), inner chaos and doubt.... the white stage is the arrival of white light, it makes one aware of one's lower nature and can even bring fear with the aim to improve (maybe something we'll see in Episode 8?)...and finally, the (yellow) red stage where the underworld is left behind and a pure form emerges..... or to put it simply.... Rey and Kylo are meant to take this journey together...they are both essential to this process....like Yin and Yang....both have light (more in Rey's case) and dark (more in Kylo's case)...and I feel these alchemy colours foreshadow Kylo's return from the underworld and Rey will be an integral part of this journey... and like the myth, he will not return in his original form (maybe grey jedi?)....but it will be a purer state (balance to the force?)....now again, I have to say this journey might not necessarily be a romance but I definitely feel it will be an extremely intense unbreakable bond.

 

If you look at TFA and the ST as both a continuation of the SW story, AND as a way to "make things right" with the franchise, Kylo Ren, Rey and their relationship with each other and the Force with accomplish this goal. They will be able to finish what Anakin Skywalker started in the sense that they will bring balance to the Force. This was a great idea that like so many things in the PT, did not get developed to it's full potential IMO.

If you only focus on Kylo Ren's actions in TFA, and assume that this character will remain static for the next two movies, OF COURSE he'd be completely unsuitable for any kind of relationship, much less anything with Rey. However, I don't see TPTB, given the lengths we saw them go to in TFA to make Ren a very conflicted characters, as interested in keeping him as a Snidely Whiplash villain. Just as DV changed from ANH to ROTJ, so will Ren.
DV went from ruthless enforcer (ANH) to obsessed pursuer (ESB) to eventual (kind of ) hero (ROTJ).

That progression of character is what gives me hope for Ren and Rey. If his redemption path does not end in death, they will be the "older generation" of the next trilogy (). TFA has given me enough confidence in the storytelling to hope for something along this line.

@anakinfansince1983

I don't even think my reaction at this point is one of "sympathy" for Kylo Ren. I am interested very much in what brought the character to the point we saw in TFA. I want to know if he can change from where he is in that movie. Don't know if it will happen, but I am interested.

 

THEY AREN"T FORCE BONDED! Where in the hell are you guys reading this stuff? Fan-fiction?

Mindless drivel it seems to me. Dark sides appeal isn't just power, He idolizes his grandfather to the point of worship of a God. He constantly compares himself to Vader and demeans himself, That is most likely harming his growth as a dark side user. He can still idolize his grandfather but without delving into the deeper mysteries like he did, why even compare yourself to him.

He needs to be his own damn villian and hopefully killing his father put him on that path.We do not need another villian redeemed in Star Wars We have had 6 movies about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker. We deserve another villian on that level. And we dont get that if people keep putting him in the In sappy 'dark romances' just to feel like he his a good person and you can feel good about wanting bang you after all the horrible things he has done to people and the horrible things he has been complacent in.

Let him delve deeper in the dark side in the next movie and have him come back more confident and more powerful cause lets be serious here. He was already powerful but he had no confidence in himself after Rey called him out on his biggest fear, in never being able to match up To Vader.

You know why Rey gets shipped? Because the girl wants attatchments and has a pretty pure heart in terms of how she deals with people, If you are good and kind to her she will be your friend and cherish ypu and If you are bad to her she will despise you. Han and Finn were great to her and she adored the both of them and both of them were struck down by Kylo Ren, One killed the other wounded heavily.

Kylo Ren did nothing positive to her at all, all he did was stalk and menace her, tortue her as she lay down helpless on a table until she turned the force against him in the middle of him digging through her mind and taunting her about her feeling about Finn and Han.

He isn't a good person and She doesn't think of him as anything good at all, even if he is han and Leia's son. Maybe she hates him more because he had people who loved him and was around him when he was younger but his narcacism burned down so much that his family built up after the war for his own selfish gains. I really don't understand how people can want him redeemed and in a happy relationship after all the crap he has done.

 

panki What an excellent analysis! Hats off!

 

So I see people are still on this Force Bonded kick. Man People need to stop going so wild in their imaginations sometimes.


THEY AREN"T FORCE BONDED! Where in the hell are you guys reading this stuff? Fan-fiction?

Mindless drivel it seems to me. Dark sides appeal isn't just power, He idolizes his grandfather to the point of worship of a God. He constantly compares himself to Vader and demeans himself, That is most likely harming his growth as a dark side user. He can still idolize his grandfather but without delving into the deeper mysteries like he did, why even compare yourself to him.

He needs to be his own damn villian and hopefully killing his father put him on that path.We do not need another villian redeemed in Star Wars We have had 6 movies about the rise and fall of Anakin Skywalker. We deserve another villian on that level. And we dont get that if people keep putting him in the In sappy 'dark romances' just to feel like he his a good person and you can feel good about wanting bang you after all the horrible things he has done to people and the horrible things he has been complacent in.

Let him delve deeper in the dark side in the next movie and have him come back more confident and more powerful cause lets be serious here. He was already powerful but he had no confidence in himself after Rey called him out on his biggest fear, in never being able to match up To Vader.

You know why Rey gets shipped? Because the girl wants attatchments and has a pretty pure heart in terms of how she deals with people, If you are good and kind to her she will be your friend and cherish ypu and If you are bad to her she will despise you. Han and Finn were great to her and she adored the both of them and both of them were struck down by Kylo Ren, One killed the other wounded heavily.

Kylo Ren did nothing positive to her at all, all he did was stalk and menace her, tortue her as she lay down helpless on a table until she turned the force against him in the middle of him digging through her mind and taunting her about her feeling about Finn and Han.

He isn't a good person and She doesn't think of him as anything good at all, even if he is han and Leia's son. Maybe she hates him more because he had people who loved him and was around him when he was younger but his narcacism burned down so much that his family built up after the war for his own selfish gains. I really don't understand how people can want him redeemed and in a happy relationship after all the crap he has done.

His actions have led to the Death of his Father, His Uncles students, the break down of his parents marriage, the destruction of the New Galactic Senate, the Reformation of the Galactic Remnants Into the First Order, The deaths of Trillions across worlds in his support of this Military power under the control of his Dark side master.

Vader barely got a happy ending and that was only a private happy ending between him and his son. Other than Luke, Han, and Leia everyone things of Vader as a monster and their is no redemption for him in their eyes.

I hope kylo Gets in even less than that, maybe he comes to terms with himself as he dies but he has to not get any semblance of a happy ending with any of the main cast. It would ruin the movies for alot of people if they have to bend over backwards in two movies to try to explain away his crimes because all he needed was the love of a good women. That is such an aweful sentiment. Sometimes People are just bad, even if they had good parents they choose to do bad things.

 

I hope for something like that too. The only thing that concerns me is that Kylo Ren's story is just beginning and he is 'developing into a villian.' This can mean many things, but many people are interpreting it to mean Kylo will become even more Vader-like as the story progresses. Also, adding in the fact Rey beat him so completely, there's an expectation that he better beat her in the next movie.

I just wonder how to reconcile the attitude that he will sink more to the dark side (which the movie has hinted at) with his conflict and his possibility for redemption (which the movie has also hinted at). I want to give the storytellers the benefit of the doubt and hope it's not as clean cut a journey as he starts out conflicted and then goes completely dark and is killed.

However, there is a part of me that believes he will have to get worse (more evil) in the next movie so as to be credible as a villian, but I just hope the story isn't so transparent as to continue in a straight line, in that direction. I don't know, maybe my concern comes from hearing about how he wasn't badass enough and how he needs to go full Vader and shouldn't be redeemed because Vader already was...

 

You're absolutely right sir, we're reading this stuff in fanfictions.
Revan & Bastila Shan are also fanfic characters btw, in case you didn't know


(THE SCRIPT)

 

Whoa...who said anything about erasing his past evils?? A person who wants redemption will not possibly see that they can get away with their past crimes. You should look at my post just a few posts above on criminals who change. It's very enlightening. Not everything's so black and white.

 

i think he is all these things, a wildfire, a crarefully contained volcano. i see him as an angry deity sometimes. his desire drives him completely, like a wounded animal. it's all about his ego.

i think he has those attributes as well, the emo teenager, the fanatic. i think all of these are there.

i'm in awe of the creation from a critic's point of view. i think he is a bold creation. and i love that there is no glossing over him. he is there in his raw shape throughout the film like a dark diamond. that is awe-inspiring.

but there is a certain type of person/poster who will see everything as a weakness, the tears and the mood swings and the confusion. and they are. but they make him interesting. so, sod the XP points and the power, he is vastly interesting.

 

regardless, i love benicio del toro. i can see him add a real edge to proceedings.

i that he will have a good part and not disappear behind a costume.

 

my friend was telling me she thought of kylo ren's sword as a broadsword or longsword (not sure what the difference is) and as i was watching the duel gifs, i thought, yeah, that's exactly how he uses it. he even uses it for stabbing.anyway, it made me think of the crusades and how i'm now officially adding knight of the round table (that stuff is vaguely related, is it not?) to the list of visual attributes. i just thought i'd let you know

 

if you go into more detail regarding violent offenders, they are mostly failed by the prison system. ... there is a whole world of argument out there for prisons being places of very little help in terms rehabilitation, which should possibly be the aim of imprisoning someone in the first place.

but, it's all very real world stuff.

personally i believe that we all have the potential to change. we can learn. but we need help. the human experience is a together-thing, alone we aren't all that great, especially regarding social learning. we need to know that we can make mistakes.

re: kylo ren, he is in a powerful position, his mistakes are on a sort of cosmic scale. if he screws up, he's gonna screw up big time. i find that fascinating. he isn't some common garden variety of an out-of-control psycho, he has the command over people and he personally has the power to kill without any consequence. it is a right granted by snoke. how do you judge this? it's a mythological conundrum, he is not privvy to human law in that sense but then of course he can be judged by the force maybe? i don't know.

again, personally, this is my interpretation of what sin is (i don't think this is canonical catholic thing), it's an act of moving away from your true self. it's essentially between yourself and god, worldly law is a different thing. anyway, in my eyes he is fulfilling that aspect of sin but it's not for anyone to judge. it's for him to make right and be true.

 

I don't know if any of you watch Nostalgia Chick videos, but she has this video called "top 10 hottest animated guys" or something like that that gives an interesting perspective. She had her fans vote for the most attractive and most (not all) were damaged guys in some way. Batman, Goliath, the Beast..and here's the weird one...Frollo.

But when you compare it to Nostalgia Critic's list of the hottest animated women voted by fans, there's a big difference. His list contains just what you'd expect. A whole list full of characters who resemble Jessica Rabbit. Need I say more? Nostalgia Chick even talks about this in her video.

Obviously these characters aren't who EVERYONE prefers, but it provides some interesting groundwork.

(I would link the video but I'm on mobile).

 

The novelization makes it clear Snoke was in Rey's head when she slashed Kylo across the face. Snoke told Rey to kill Kylo. It would seem Snoke will look to seduce Rey to the darkside, since he may see more potential in her than Kylo.

 

this was my favourite bit.

could we perhaps pin bad weather on him as well? his power is so limitless and unprecedented, he has also retroactively destroyed his parents' marriage? wow.

do you have any idea how damaging quarrelling parents are to children? do you understand that even kylo ren, even the clearly damaged kylo ren was once a child? that he didn't come out of nowhere?

i know i'm wasting my typing skills and it is unfair to pick up one single thing from a long post. but, good lord, this character is inspiring so much misunderstanding.

 

ReyKenobi there you go

 

I remember seeing some psychologist's video on youtube (I think someone posted something similar in this thread) where they discussed the psychology of Kylo Ren and they actually had the complete opposite view....that it was the problems between the parents that led to his being vulnerable to Snoke and the FO, not the other way around.....I'll find the video again and post the link...

 

panki its this one

 

darth_frared....Thanks for posting it....

 

darth_frared
Thanks for sharing the video! I rewatch it every now and then because I think it's a really good, simple analysis of people's preferences.

 

That seems like a big thing to omit from the film. There was no evidence of Snoke interfering in the fight at all. I mean it makes sense for villains to look for the most powerful student possible but it just wasn't clear in the film that he was in her mind at all.

 

panki
Wow, you've made a thorough analysis of the posters! I love how passionate is this fandom about Kylo&Rey. You make a lot of sense in regards of Kylo&Rey bond. I'd love it ended up being romantic but even if it is not, there will be a link between them that will make them interact a great deal and, hopefully it will redirect Kylo towards Ben... or so I hope!

 

the nostalgia chick video was really fun actually. thanks for pointing it out.

i love the psychology in seattle thing. because they are fans and because they make some good points that are obviously inferred from the movie but i think they work, for ma anyway.
i thought it was especially good how they think vader is being triangulated into the elationship to provide some stability. and it really ties in with how vader is not actually there. he's almost purely a projection surface. i really don't want to change that. i really don't want a bunch of force ghosts to turn up and explain everything and undo it all. that'd be a major crisis and in narrative terms simply problematic (i think). show us stuff, don't have force ghosts explain the plot.

 

It's one of those things that a novel can do that a film maybe cannot not, due to a third-person narration. Basically in the movie, a lot of the evidence for Rey's Dark Side comes from Daisy Ridley's performance in that scene for many people.