PT Padmé Amidala MEGAthread - Don't look at her that way. It makes her uncomfortable

I need to see the NEU explanation of why Han worked for Jabba. Since that will probably be what people accept.

In the EU, Han originally worked with the Hutts to get flight experience for the Imperial Academy.
After he saved Chewie, got blacklisted and was forced to Hutt space. It was one of the only choices he had left.

I'd ask my friend (if they worked for a slaver) for their side of the story before judging.
People on here are sympathetic to Anakin but won't let Han get an equal shot? Really?
How many people did Anakin/Vader kill, torture, enslave over the years yet gets a free pass?

 

Quite frankly, EU explanations (NEU or not) mean nothing to me personally. That's just my opinion.

And I brought up Han and his work for Jabba specifically because Darth Downunder was getting on Padmé's case for her reaction to the Tusken slaughter. I pointed out that I, personally, found it much more understandable that Padmé could forgive Anakin of that considering he admitted it was wrong, broke down crying, and clearly didn't plan it -- it was a heat of the moment, destabilized rage brought on by intense trauma of not only having his mother die in his arms but of having to watch her be tortured for a month in his dreams. He snapped, yes, but he admitted it was wrong and didn't need Padmé to tell him that. And he further told Palpatine who is, it should be pointed out, the Chancellor of the Republic or the highest authority in the land.

I brought up Han and slavery because at least by ROTJ, Leia MUST have realized what Han working for him means. But it's never addressed or acknowledged in any way shape or form by Leia or Han. Han never shows the slightest bit of regret for having worked for a slaver like Jabba. And people will say, of course, that Han got Leia off the Death Star, saved Luke twice, helped to destroy the Death Star, and then got Leia off Hoth. But Anakin has done at least as much to help Padmé: saving her planet, serving the Republic as a Jedi for 10 years, saving her life, saving Obi-Wan, going after Obi-Wan on Geonosis, and then fighting in the Clone Wars to defend the Republic. And Padmé never gets any slack. I bring up Han and Leia because I get so tired of Padmé taking heat for things Leia gets a pass on.

 

It's just double standards. Simple as that.

 

I don't think the timing has something to do with that. But the time of the story has. I mean, if there was some movement against the Emperor, why they had to wait almost 20 years ( I know there are series SW Rebels, but I'm talking about the movies). It seems like they are betraying the ideas of the Old Republic (including those of Padme) ad just waiting in the corner till the time is right.
Also it will diminish the sense of destruction and despair that comes with the beginning of the Imperial era. And the Imperial Era is a time of destruction and despair.

 

Everything is already there on Mustafar.

Anakin thought Padme betrayed him because she brought Obi-Wan to Mustafar.

The very fact that he considered that among everything else told her that he was lost to her.

In Star Wars it is! Surrounded by droid doctors and Jedi and giving birth to the twin children of the Chosen One.

Droid doctors say she has lost the will to live. They can't come up with anything else. We already know the limitations of droids as regards to AOTC.

DEXTER JETTSTER It's these funny little cuts on
the side give it away...
Those analysis droids you've got
over there only focus on symbols,
you know. I should think you Jedi
would have more respect for the
difference between knowledge and
wisdom.

OBI-WAN Well, Dex, if droids could think, we
wouldn't be here, would we?

Well that didn't happen here so there is nothing to talk about. All that happened is that Lucas wrote lines that are very specific that for some reason some fans draw the exact wrong conclusions from. He considered doing the standard thing here and rejected it and called out directly that rejection.

The whole underlying theme of the prequels is that things are not simple. Things are not as they seem on the surface. It's not about straight up good vs evil. So that Lucas has the heroine's passing be in line with that makes perfect sense.

 

Just as an observation: this is not the first thread that's gotten massively derailed by talks of the Tusken Raider scene recently in a very similar fashion. It would be nice to get back to the topic. I'm getting a lot of deja vu.

Tonyg: I don't really understand how including these scenes diminishes anything. We also have Star Wars Rebels, and other pieces that deal with this period. It could be that there's stuff in motion but it's dangerous. It also sets up Leia's involvement with Organa and also as a hereditary legacy.

Qui-Riv-Brid: I disagree. I don't think it's all on Mustafar. I mean it's what we have, but it's like settling for crumbs because the cake's under the table. Obviously if that scene were enough there would be popular consensus about being able to understand Padme and Anakin's motivation.

 

The way Star Wars movies work it is because that is the form that Lucas chose to use right from the start.

Lucas created Star Wars as 'silent films' ie the story is in the visuals and music. He used the old time serial form as the vehicle he created the movies around.

The "problem" I see over and again is that some fans actually think that Star Wars are far more driven by dialogue then they in reality are. The dialogue is there for support. Important support but support nevertheless. Now when doing the relatively simple good vs evil storyline of the OT with easily accessible characters it's of course far easier to read.

The prequels are not that. Lucas decided to use the same form as the OT for the entire saga so what was easy to read with simple characters with basic good and evil is not so easy with harder to read characters (in comparison to the OT) where the lines of good and evil and what is the right thing to do and the wrong is as I said before below the surface.

The music of the prequels is that much more important to the characters and understanding them. Lucas' collaboration with Williams on the music is the most important aspect of the entire trilogy other than Lucas' own detailed crafting of the visual storytelling. The dialogue as support is the just that. That is very specifically crafted by Lucas as well but in that serial style.

For whatever reason as a child I have a lot of the same influences in terms of movies, TV, radio, books, comics etc that Lucas did though he is decades older. I was drawn to older things probably due to ANH in the first place. So the style he is going for and which is the same as the OT in basic approach is something that I appreciate.

For some people they look at the dialogue above all and think of the visuals as support to that.

The dialogue is the crumbs while the visuals and music is the cake. For some they want the dialogue to be the cake and look at the visuals and music as crumbs.

The entire Mustafar sequence from Padme's arrival to Vader being taken away to Coruscant to me is likely the richest section in all of Star Wars and one of the richest in film history.

 

That talks about the elderly & people with a serious illness. Padme was a healthy uninjured young person.

Well now you've changed the story. You said earlier she chose to die. Now she died from a broken heart, essentially an injury. Was there a choice on her part or wasn't there?

Good point. What's also not established in the films is that Han knew about Jabba's slave girls or has even been to Jabba's palace. We see Jabba come to Mos Eisley & Han mentions that he should "come see me yourself" if he wants to talk to him. Where is it shown in the films that Han knew about the slave dancers at the palace? Pls adhere to your own standards about making assumptions.

Another good point. So if he's not sure that the women & children were involved you don't murder them right? You need to be sure before you administer a death sentence, yes? You might also recall there was a shot of a woman in the camp holding a tiny baby. If Anakin killed "every last one of them" then that includes that baby. Did Anakin think it was possible that the baby was involved in Shmi's capture?

"Blind with rage" is the lamest excuse for anyone who has ever perpetrated a massacre. It might wash for the Tusken warriors given Anakin's provocation, but not the innocents in the camp. Let's be clear, there had to be two distinct actions in this. The taking out in combat of the Tuskens who fought him, & then the murder of all those who didn't, ie some of the women & certainly the small children. It's the second action that's the heinous indefensible crime.

You seem to have trouble separating your knowledge as a viewer from the in-universe knowledge of the characters. Han probably never knew about the slave dancers. No evidence that he'd been to the palace.

Leia wouldn't get a pass either if she shrugged off Han slaughtering a bunch of kids.

Not really. You guys are equating the massacre of women & children with doing some jobs for a guy who owned slaves. When we have no evidence that Han even knew that.

 

I wasn't talking about the slaves or equating. I was mentioning something else in that comment.

 

While that would probably be true in our world, Lucas uses machines vs. man/nature as a thematic device. In his worldview, there is simply something more right about a more naturalistic approach. That's just something I think must be taken into account when reading that scene. Everyone always emphasis the 'lost the will to live' part of the dialogue, but for me the part that leaps out to me is 'we don't know why.' They can't understand, so they are conjecturing. If they did know, they'd say. But they don't. It baffles the droids. In a world where the Force exists and everything is symbolic, I can definitely buy this.

Also: not to get mystical, but... (though I think with Star Wars being a fantasy fairy tale in space, this is fully excused)... doctors, especially machine doctors, assess individual, demonstrable problems. That requires a focus. But what these doctors found with Padme is that there was no focused problem. For some reason, everything was just failing everywhere, almost as if her 'essence' were being destroyed, as if her life force were literally dying. So that's the 'lost the will to live' -- for some reason, things that should be working okay aren't working okay, they are dying. And I think in this film it is directly implied that that's a result of emotional stress and emotional heartbreak. It's a fantasy, a fairy tale, and so this sort of thematic device, which is very old, may not play well with sophisticated audiences today who are more accustomed to science fiction. However, Lucas is definitely in line with all the rest of great fantasy epics in introducing this thematic device, of the loss of 'essence' due to heartbreak. It's not meant to be explicitly realistic, it's all meant to be symbolic. It's best to interpret Padme's death like Luke staring off into the sunset -- it communicates an emotional truth that goes beyond the simple line-reading, it communicates something more powerful. Children, who are generally more open-minded than adults, can understand this with generally no problem. It's an emotional and symbolic truth. And I think that's the point of that. I can't speak for everyone, but for me and a few people I know, I think that point was delivered nicely and was liked well enough.

[And I think it's great that it conveys the point of loss of 'essence' but does not directly point to the Force choke as the cause, but rather the whole holistic transformation to evil as the probable cause. In other words, Padme didn't die because Anakin Force choked her. That was a contributing reason, probably a strong one, but Padme died because Anakin became Darth Vader and the Republic became the Empire. Everything she worked for and the people she trusted fell apart. Stress & loss that high has been known to kill people. Padme is no different.]

 

BTW the implication is that with these droid doctors that to keep her secret it makes sense to believe that similar droids have also been attending her during her pregnancy. Droids that can't tell he she is having twins.

She has droid doctors. Anakin has droid doctors.

Another perplexing thing and one I can't ever quite wrap my head around is that we have some fans complain about the demystification of the Force in the prequels who INSIST that the midichlorians are the explanation for the Force (which they clearly are not) and despite the introduction of all sorts of mystical elements connected to the Force chief among then Anakin and the prophecy they reject that mysticism. Here we have a clear case of machines not knowing why Padme is dying.

MEDICAL DROID: Medically, she is completely healthy. For reasons we can't explain, we are losing her.

OBI-WAN: She's dying?

MEDICAL DROID: We don't know why. She has lost the will to live. We need to operate quickly if we are to save the babies.

BAIL ORGANA: Babies??!!

We can't explain so here is our explanation!!

The prequels are full of mythological mystic symbolism. Remember that Lucas didn't meet Campbell until after the OT. Campbell then became as Lucas said his last mentor. JC's impact on the PT is likely actually the impact that he didn't really have on the OT but is talked about to the extent that many people probably think he was involved somehow when it really was simply one of the many books Lucas read.

 

In AotC, Padme was trying to cover up her feelings for Anakin.
In RotS, she was married to him and was deeply worried for his mental health as he was active in a long and grueling war. I don't see how Padme could've acted any different than she did. She did seem weak and not as strong-willed as she was in TPM and AotC but she was pregnant in RotS.

 

My point was if they show these scenes, I would have the feeling the reign of the Empire will not last too long, because still in its beginning many people (who are close to the events and the means of power) will resist, realizing what is going on. But in the SW movies (in that moments there were no SW rebels) we see all the opposite: the triumph of the Empire and almost 20 years latter, a real, big and significant rebellion (no matter that Episode 7 practically confirm the statement of the Emperor that this rebellion is insignificant, but anyway). Yes, the Sith win that round, the Clone Wars and the power in the Galaxy. Is awful, but I think it is better for the pace of the movie to show that this awful thing is happening and all the characters (except Palpatine) feel like Threepio, well, helpless to change the events. Padme is helpless to change the evens, no matter that she tried. But in that moment she still doesn't know exactly what is going on. She sees in the Senate that the Republic is gone, but why she didn’t react then? Well, she is not happy with the formation of the Empire but even she have no motives (except the abstract motive of the democracy) to oppose the Chancellor. In that moment she knows that Jedi are traitors (Anakin told her so, why not believe him), that the Chancellor obviously is using this situation, but what to do? Also, her suspicions that Republic has become the evil that they should fight against came true. So she practically doesn't know what to do in that moment. This doesn't make her character weaker, all the opposite, it shows that she will never adapt to the new dark era.

Practically, 'the good guys' are absolutely helpless in that moment. Senator Organa didn't react either and he knows that the Jedi aren't traitors. But he also doesn't know what to do except to save the rest of the Jedi, so in the end he retires in Alderaan. Obi Wan and Yoda couldn’t defeat the Sith and retire in exile. Padme passes on, metaphorically Anakin also dies. This is the culmination of the tragedy in ROTS. The only glimpses of hope are the children of the biggest and tragic love in the Galaxy but it is the hope of the future, not of the moment.

So if you ask me that I would like more scenes with Padme: absolutely yes, she is one of my favorite characters in the cinema in general. But I understand why they didn't include those scenes in ROTS.

 

Very well said. I also very much like the explanation of xezene of the man/machine opposition.
But here you mentioned something that I have always wondered. If Padme is hiding her pregnancy (OK, it is impossible to hide it completely, especially in the last months, but yes, she tried) maybe she was going to some standard medical centre, full of droids, to stay anonymous, and not to emphasize on the fact of the pregnancy, because even in that she was more concerned what would happen with the love of her life, not with her, no matter that maybe for her it would be scandalous also. Maybe in the end she knows that she will have twins, but she didn't have the possibility to tell Anakin about that (we don't know exactly how much time passed between the kidnapping of the Chancellor and triumph of the Sith, could be even months, I don't know). So if they have included few scenes about that, it wouldn't demystify the movie, it will just explain the simple fact why in this highly developed Galaxy almost none don’t know that she was pregnant with twins, also would show again that she is selfless and always care about the others, not for her own good and also would show more of her most feminine side, if I could say so.
Generally, I think that PT are very strong in showing the feminine side of things (a difference from OT), but here, about the pregnancy is the moment when many male writes fail a bit, and I think Lucas did it too; I mean the pregnancy of Padme is always in the shadows and many people even forget about it till the moment of the childbirth, so again, Sepra if you ask me what kind of additional scenes I would like to see in the movie, the scenes are that: what Padme feels and thinks about the children she cares. We see that only in one scene, in her apartment. Maybe if we have more of it, few people will think that she abandoned them (I strongly disagree with that, but more people would disagree if there were more scenes about the pregnancy).

 

I'll leave whether Padme was handled right for now, but part of the problem is simply that she wasn't as important to the story in R.O.T.S. because of the events the films were framed around:

1. T.P.M.: She is the ruler of the planet at the centre of most of the overarching setting of the film (i.e., the film is backgrounded by the Naboo crisis). Much of the film concentrates on the concerns of her planet.
2. A.O.T.C.: She is (as senator) effectively a high-ranking government employee of a planet that is now no longer the centre of the setting/backgrounding (moving to the Republic vs. Separatists thing). However, the events of the film are still launched by concerns about her (the assassination attempts), but move to a point where her interests (stemming from her position) are no longer the primary concern.
3. R.O.T.S.: The setting and events have moved away from her; the concern is now the war and Palpatine's machinations.

This is reflected in how she declines in position in her home planet: the Queen is more important than the Senator which is more important than the housewife she kind of becomes because, you know, she's pregnant. In the last film, her only important function, really, is to give birth to Anakin Skywalker's children; as she is no longer at the centre of the big events, you have to figure out how to place her in a bit more carefully.

 

This trilogy is primarily Anakin's story. The closer we get to the end of it, the more it focuses on his point of view. In ROTS, there are very few scenes that aren't directly related to him and that was a deliberate choice on GL's part because he felt that it made for a stronger movie.

I am totally fine with that.

 

By the way -- I just wanted to add this to this thread because it perfectly lays out my thoughts on this and Padme's end. Very well worth reading. From user yoshifett in a thread on here in 2005, he wrote:

Along with the fact that, for the duration of ROTS, Padme is out of her element. She is not in the lush and fertile world of Naboo, which is symbolically linked to her. Instead, she is in the machine-industrial city-world of Coruscant, and the lava fire-world of Mustafar. Finally, she gives birth and dies on an empty rock out in the middle of nowhere. This is symbolic. Padme's increasingly being thrust into a world where, symbolically and even literally, there's no place for her. There's no place for Padme in the world of the Empire.

 

You are correct here. In the novel there is an expanded exchange between her and Bail Organa after the "liberty dies" line. She says something like she probably won't be alive much longer so he must carry forwards the [secret] rebellion to Palpatine's Empire.

Thematically, she (and Anakin) are doomed at the end of AOTC when they marry and turn their backs to the camera. She is "dying" from the moment we meet up with her at the start of ROTS as is Anakin (he's "dying" from the moment he takes off Dooku's head)

As far as whether she was handeled correctly on ROTS, I'd say I would have liked at least one more scene with her (probably the first Padme/Obi-Wan scene before he goes off to find Grevious - I always found it strange that this scene wasn't even released as as an extra because it seems so important and wonderfully written in the script).

I've never really wanted the "birth of the rebellion" scenes to be included as her line "this is how liberty dies" says it all really.

I adore the symbolism and mythic nature of her death though.

 

I enjoy the symbolic aspect of Padme's arc as has already been discussed, and it certainly works emotionally from a male perspective, but I can see why a bigger fan of the character would be disappointed with ROTS. As has been said, with Anakin clearly the focus and the galaxy "turning" with him, Padme is, perhaps intentionally from a thematic perspective, pushed to the side-lines.

Additionally, I noticed a while back many links/opposites between Queen Amidala - a leader who voluntarily gives up power over the course of the trilogy, and Palpatine - a leader who does everything in his power to secure control of the galaxy.

 

I'm bored, thought I'd clarify some of those links between Queen Amidala (symbolic "ruler" in TPM) and The Emperor (Galactic ruler from ROTS-ROTJ)...

- Both a Senator from Naboo.

- Start with the same letters; PAdme vs PAlpatine.

- Both have red royal guards (This particularly fits in with the speculated saga "ring-theory" - Ep1 compared to Ep6).

- Trivially, both have pale complexion (Amidala royal makeup vs Palpatine appearance after his transformation), at times against black clothing.

- Both have a secret identity - Sidious hides behind Palpatine /vs/ Amidala hides behind Padme. The difference is Padme's innocent alter-ego is the real deal.

- Ep1 starts with two Jedi secretly sent by the current Chancellor, and the Jedi end up rescuing Amidala from the TF. /vs/ Ep3 starts with two Jedi sent for the current Chancellor, who has secretly arranged his own kidnapping, and Palpatine is rescued from the Separatists by the Jedi, just like Amidala.

- Anakin has a bond with both characters, and ultimately chooses the two of them over the whole Jedi Order.

- Anakin states "I will do you anything that you ask" to Padme in AOTC, in regards to her wishes for him to back-off from pursuing her. A stark contrast in ROTS; Anakin repeats the same words "I will do whatever you ask" to Palpatine when submitting to the dark side, and ultimately fuses his destiny to Palpatine's in attempt to hold onto to Padme at any cost. Demonstrates a dangerous shift in Anakin's loyalties and actions.

- ROTS: Vader "kills" Anakin, becomes Palpatine's servant, and loses Padme /vs/ ROTJ: Anakin sacrifices his life and returns as a Jedi, ending Palpatine's reign, and saving Luke.

 

Damn bro, amazing observations as always! I would never have thought of this parallel between Padme and Palpatine of all people, haha. But your points make it clear as day! Thanks for sharing them!

 

Thanks for your compliments again man. I really enjoy this stuff. The visual cues, symmetry and irony of some of these observations are part of what made me a hardcore fan on ROTS's release.

 

I think the subtext here is that Palpatine siphoned her lifeforce into the dying Skywalker. The medical droids wouldn't know what was happening, and we assume that Obiwan and Yoda had never heard of Darth Plagueis, and we know that Sidious learnt everything that he could from Pagueis before killing him, and that he could save people from death, but he never states how or whether or not there's a cost. It looks like she dies at the same time as Vader breathes his first artificial breath, her death brought him new life. "In your haste, you killed her" - of course he wasn't going to admit killing her, and in making Vader hate himself he made him A stronger in the dark side and B even more his slave. The broken heart and losing will to live rubbish is way too cheesy to be real, even for the PT which has more cheese than a pizza factory, so I think there is more to it than that. Siri on your iPhone can't understand the concept of a human holding their breath, feeling air on their skin, burning their elbow or the embarrassment of burping in a business meeting, and the droids have no understanding of the emperor/sith draining the life force using the dark side of the force in order to preserve Vader's life long enough to insert him into a portable iron lung and medical body suit.Losing the will to live is the best they can do with their medical understanding and rudimentary understanding of human emotion.

 

There is nothing cheesy to die or worse, become mad (as happens in real life) when someone understands is involved in the biggest plot of conquering the Galaxy, the husband of this someone become a monster, that this new turned monster because of this someone (i.e. Padme) and even killed younglings, chokes her with the Force and she even has to be strong enough to give a birth... And the worst thing (and in the same time the best thing) is that Padme still loves Anakin. If Lucas wanted to show that Palpatine killed Padme, he would give us enough clues, as he always does. But this will diminish her tragedy and the tragedy of Anakin Skywalker later ( 20 years he felt the guilt of killing her in his anger, but in fact, he didn't and that suffering was his punishment). Many people watching ROTS feel like her role was not important, i.e. she wasn't handled well, but not, all this was intentional. Padme has no place in the new dark era. She feel helpless in the Senate (in desperation she even ask Anakin to beg the Chancellor to stop the war, because she felt that the role of the Senate itself become unimportant). As someone here said, she even has no place to give a birth (and in the end, to die). She gives a birth in a nameless, lifeless rock and it is amazing how in this empty dead pile of stones the new hope for the Galaxy appeared. Yes, she died, because she couldn't survive all this, but let not forget that Anakin also died. In his case not physically but he wasn't the same person after all those event: with or without burning. Actually those who survived the triumph of the Sith, should go outside (in exile).

 

She still had every reason to want to live, she just had two children, the love of a mother would mean she would want to protect her two babies, not leave them orphaned.