ST That's Not How The Force Works... (or is it?)

The Force does make anything possible, but you'll need an insane attunement to it in order to do those kinds of things. Who knows what Kylo will be able to do once Snoke has completed his training, though?

 

I think it expands, while also staying within what we've been shown. Like TFA as a whole, it's fresh yet familiar. It can be used to hold a blaster bolt in midair, or push back a mind probe (and a mind trick gleaned as a similar concept). A lightsaber can trigger a vision, and an untrained Force user can* best a partially-trained one. The presentation makes me feel like this is how the Force has always worked, but not previously explored like this. To me, it's much the same thinking that aerial battles can take place within a planet's atmosphere.

*Yes, there's a lack of precedent here, but let's take the baseball analogy used earlier. Prior to 2004, no Major League team had overcome a three-game deficit to win a best-of-seven series. But nothing within the rules/mechanics of baseball made that impossible. In a way, though, Rey besting Kylo does have precedent, in that the partially-trained Force user loses. Even aside from the cirumstances of the duel, think of someone telling Kylo: "This is a dangerous time for you, when you will be tempted by the light."

The Force (and the use of it) seems more prominent in TFA than in ANH or TPM, in general as well as in proportion to what the young protagonist is told about it. But I don't think that makes it overpowered. It's given space to be the "energy" that "moves through and surrounds every living thing." It's in line with Qui-Gon's advice to Anakin: "Feel, don't think. Use your instincts." In TFA, it manifests in someone who's had plenty of time to explore independent thoughts and feelings, who has many sensory/atmospheric moments in the film, whose musical theme ends up combined with the Force theme, etc.

 

That's it, exactly. It has ever since Yoda's speech in ESB.

 

Right. Wu wei in Taoism.

 

It's more than attunement - it's control. But, the same man that has sufficient control to stop a blaster bolt midair also exhibits the self-control of a spoilt 3 year old. Odd, that is.

In any classical representation of good and evil, light and dark, one can not be tempted by the light for the light is nothing more than the absence of the dark. Evil/dark is seductive, easy, the path of least resistance for our easily corrupted selves. Resisting temptation pulls us from the dark and into the light.

However, I do agree with the observation that the Force is much more prominent in TFA (it's right there in the title). Its prominence makes TFA significantly unlike the other six movies.

As was pointed out earlier in the quotes from Lucas, the Force was a background item. A prompt to youngsters to think of the larger world around them. The Force enabled "simple tricks and nonsense" and required an inordinate amount of control (attained via training) for most to be able to do even those. Also, he explicitly did not want to found a religion.

Yet, right there in first few minutes of TFA is the Church of the Force! That is the first hint that the story writers egos are writing checks their intellects will not be able to cash.

Their lack of humility will lead to an ever increasing progression in the power of the Force. Post-Lucas Star Wars will become like Superman who once could only leap tall buildings in a single bound, then could fly, then could fly in space, fly through stars, reverse the flow of time by flying faster than light, etc. He went from being a super man to being a quasi-god.

If the path in TFA is continued, Star Wars will become another super hero franchise with TFA being Rey's origin story. Each movie will bring a super villain who will prompt Rey to realize she has yet another new ability. One that she can attain by doing not much more than believing in herself and letting the Force do its thing.

Where then will be the Lucasian Star Wars ideals of hard work, discipline and self control?

 

Philosophically, if you yourself seek to purge yourself of the good in you, (and literally if you are a fly for example) of course you can be lured to the light.

Also, I think you'll find that Tarkin and Solo both link the Force with religion back in 1977. It would be weird if there wasn't some kind of church of the force. In real life people (I'm not judging here) treat the Force as a religion for crying out loud. People in the Uk list Jedi as their religious belief.

Anyone who thinks Rey and future Jedi won't have to train and apply discipline and undergo struggles on the Jedi path is being wilfully obtuse.

 

It's not odd at all. The light side is about self-control--to let go of the demands of the ego and tune into the will of the Force. The dark side is about external control--bending the Force to your will. Kylo Ren exhibits the latter but not the former.

 

I couldn't agree more, TFA is following story writing trappings I've seen common in Japanese media since the 80's at least. I would post more to explain but will do so later.

You have no reason to see others opinions on future media as such until proven correct because at the rate the story is headed now the above mentioned fears could very well manifest themselves. Also yes the comparison to religion is there but has little to do with the way the story might be executed. It's certainly no shield against criticism that the force is slowly going from abstract concept to deus ex machina.

 

Yeah - that's pretty basic Force 101 really.

 

It would be if it were written poorly , fortunately I have found that to rarely be the case.

 

You mean like it wasn't a Deus Ex Machina in TPM?

We can discuss whether or not Rey and others struggle/ need training etc after episode 8. The idea she'll breeze through everything for the next film is ludicrous. Not going to happen. The ending is all about her going off for further training. She still has plenty of journey to get through in terms of growth.

 

And we've been over this before. The Force in TFA is as much a Deus Ex Machina as it is in ANH, i.e. not at all.

 

Exactly. I can appreciate why some might think Rey's skills are too strong too quick though I don't have a problem with it. The idea TFA is way out of step with the rest of the films (in a way that that's different from previous developments) I cannot understand at all.

 

This thread is both enlightening and confusing. Addressing the main question, my thoughts and opinions are thus....

From the films... with guidance and practice, the Force does give sensitives abilities. Some abilities are much easier to grasp than others. But I don't remember the Force ever infusing anyone with the knowledge or skill to automatically do something.

"If you'd spend as much time working on your saber skills as you do on your wit, young Padawn, you would rival Master Yoda as a swordsman."
"It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force... but by our skills with a lightsaber."
"You have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it as I have."

Knowledge, practice, training. Learning in order to attain, practicing in order to improve.

Here's a short list of what Rey expertly did without training or experience:

*- Flew a YT-1300 freighter (even without a co-pilot) better than Han Solo.
*- Used a blaster pistol with the marksmanship of a sniper.
*- Fixed the hyperdrive on the Falcon before it went boom ##
*- Resisted a Force mind probe
*- Administered a Force mind probe
*- Force persuaded
*- Force pulled
*- Fought with a lightsaber skillfully against another lightsaber wielder

## She has shown mechanical knowledge before, but I added it because after she bypassed the compressor to save the day, she gave that bewildered 'how did I do that?' look, which she gives a few times in this film.

She initially failed at everything on that list, which makes it fair to say that she had no experience. Then moments later, she was suddenly great at everything on that list. As if the Force downloaded the knowledge and skill set into her. No learning, no practice. The Force has never worked like that.

I've said it elsewhere, but the Force in TFA is more Matrix-like, then SW lore-like. All in my humble opinion, of course.

 

I think it simply comes down to: Luke was trained (albeit very briefly), while Rey was not. And Luke used what's perceived by fans as a very basic ability in ANH (allowing the force to guide his aim), while Rey used force abilities that are deemed "advanced" by Star Wars fans (namely, a Jedi mind trick, and defeating an experienced force user in a lightsaber duel). I personally reject the distinction, but I understand why it's being made.

Did we watch the same film? Let's take each of your assertions apart.

1. *- Flew a YT-1300 freighter (even without a co-pilot) better than Han Solo. No way. Rey did not fly the Falcon "better than Han Solo." Did you not notice her terrible takeoff where she smashed into a bunch of structures, and at least three moments where she scraped the Falcon along the ground?

2. *- Used a blaster pistol with the marksmanship of a sniper. Are you serious? Rey missed the stormtrooper on her first shot, and then hit him the second time, but she was hardly at a distance that suggested sniper-like marksmanship.

3. *- Fixed the hyperdrive on the Falcon before it went boom ##. Wow. The film makes it abundantly clear that Rey is VERY familiar with the Falcon, and the modifications that Unkar Plutt had made to it, including reference to the "compressor" twice before this moment. She then "bypasses the compressor" to fix the hyperdrive. No training needed.

4. *- Resisted a Force mind probe: Sure. But I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that she's simply a very strong-minded person, who is at that point learning to embrace the force, and not so susceptible for such things.

5. *- Administered a Force mind probe: Perhaps she learned this from Kylo himself?

6. *- Force persuaded: True. I personally would have left this out, as it's far too specific a force trick. But I can see how it can be perceived as intuitive for someone who just experienced a force mind probe, re-directed it at Kylo.

7. *- Fought with a lightsaber skillfully against another lightsaber wielder: Sure. But it was already established that Rey was excellent at hand to hand combat, and had been growing in her force sensitivity since the mind probe. Add to that the obvious fact that Kylo was severely wounded, agitated, and not trying to kill Rey (as he offered to teach her), and I think it's a fairly acceptable outcome.

 

I think it will turn out that Kylo is in fact speaking to someone/something in the form of spirit, only it isn't visible to other charactersor the audience

 

To me the movie strongly implies that she's a former youngling pupil of Luke. Either her memory has been tampered with or she has some kind of PTSD memory block due to witnessing the temple massacre as a child. The novel further hints at this kind of history with Kylo's line to her "it is you". I'm sure this will be confirmed in VIII.

So I'm almost certain she has received training. During the film she's "remembering" more & more of it. In addition, she's been living on Jakku fighting off scumbags for years with her staff. So I have no problem with her lightsaber abilities. Then there's her probing of Kylo's mind. The movie shows Kylo extracting information from her. Her dreams, feelings & memories. When she reverses it towards him it stands to reason that she gained knowledge & information from him. In fact we know she does. She learns his feelings about Vader. Who knows what else she gained. It's no coincidence that her use of the mind trick was her very next scene.

So, what we have with Rey is a powerful Force prodigy. Let's say she has 70 or 80% of the potential of Anakin. Now imagine that Anakin received a few years of training as a young child, then was raised on Tatooine. By the time he got to 20 years old imagine all of the things he could do! He'd be very powerful, more-so than Rey even. Esp if he'd grown up constantly fighting & protecting himself. He wouldn't be fully trained like we saw in the PT but he'd be formidable to say the least.
Without yet being told about his early training we'd probably be calling him a...whatever the male equivalent of a Mary-Sue is.

 

Since at least ROTJ, however, there's been a suggestion that people naturally attuned to the Force exhibit surprising talents as it is. Anakin in particular can "see things before they happen", bestowing him with superhuman reflexes. Rey is no different in that regard.

 

I must admit, that was my interpretation initially, too. We'll see.

 

That would be really stupid if it turned out to be the case because it would be completely inconsistent with Return of The Jedi.