ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

My point exactly. I find it silly to be arguing about whether or not Kylo pushed someone when he just committed murder of the highest degree. Come on guys, we've got more important things to discuss.

 

I just feel like amid all the discussion of small details, vague expressions, pushing /not pushing fathers into bottomless chasms and whatnot, we're kind of losing sight of the broader strokes in relation to Kylo's mindset. The guy is an unbalanced, cruel, capricious mess of a person, and for the average moviegoer who doesn't go to forums to parse these things out in micro-detail, I'd have to assume the GENERAL impression at this point is that onscreen, at least, Kylo's even more of a monster than Vader was. Vader, after all, was never shown personally torturing people in the OT. In ROTJ he also was given the chance to watch his son die (not personally end his life, even) and chose instead to deadlift Sheev down a reactor shaft. Point being, it's gonna take some serious effort to get most people to a place where he can even be sympathized with, let alone forgiven.

 

That's only because the door got shut on us right before he started torturing Leia. Just because we didn't actually see it doesn't mean it actually happened.

 

It was implied to have happened, not shown in that case. Hence less impact. Same reason why, in many PG-13 films, certain scenes of violence are edited to imply something brutal, rather than being shown in explicit detail.

 

But if we're free to speculate on something that happened then present that as what happened, what's to stop anyone from saying, "Well on the way to Snoke he went on a detour to Vader's helmet (who is his real confidante, by the way) and cried like a baby asking for help, to which the helmet replied, 'Go to Snoke and ask for more training.'" I'd say your interpretation is actually inconsistent because Kylo goes out of his way to HIDE his thoughts and emotions from Snoke (out of fear?). Does one really run off to the person from whom he hides his emotions at the moment those emotions are strong? He flat out denies any show of weakness on his part to Snoke. It's inconsistent with his behavior. He runs to Vader's helmet when overcome by emotion, not Snoke.

But that's really not the point I'm trying to make. Creating a scene in one's imagination (even if you think you had enough basis) then passing that off as what actually happened (which is what you did that I reacted to) is the stuff of disingenuous debate. Nothing of the sort was shown to have happened, so no conclusion could and should be drawn from an imagined scene. That's a version of begging the question which can be summed up to saying, "Kylo is childish, so in my mind he did X. And because Kylo did X it is further proof he is childish."

OTOH, plenty of saber-wielding temper tantrums were actually shown resulting from OTHER stimuli. Lots of conclusions can reasonably be made there.

 

Since we're only one movie in the trilogy let's compare ANH Vader 2 Kylo. (All evil things)

Vader chokes an disarmed Rebel 2 death. Vader covers up the Tantive 4 attack by making it look like an accident. We dont know the fate of the Rebel prisoners. Vader then unleashed the Stormtroopers on Tatooine killing Jawas (who were armed) and burning Owen & Beru. However we are not shown if Vader ordered this or if it was Imperial Doctrine. Then Leia is "mind probed" but we are not shown the procedure. Vader attacks Motti but spares his life. Vader fights Obi-Wan honorably how ever he slices him when his guard is down. This could be explained in a heat of the moment battle decision.

Now Kylo.

Kylo orders an attack on a Jakku Village (the village had weapons). Kylo cuts down the old frail LST. He then orders the now surrendered people killed & the village burned Poe is tortured 4 information then mind probed. Nima Outpost is bombed. (Possible First Order Doctrine, but most likely ordered by Kylo). Maz's Pleasure Palace Bar And Casino (open 26 hours! Best odds in the sector!) Is ordered attacked. Kylo coldly stalks sweet baby Rey. Teases her with her saber. Mind probes Rey on SKB. Stabs his Father and mildly pushed him down a void. Stalks Rey & Finn. First fights Finn disarms him then slices his back open. (Possible heat of the moment battle decision)

Who's more evil into his first movie? Who's less worthy of redemption?

 

neither are worthy of redemption. Vader isn't worthy of redemption until the very end of ROTJ.

 

I am very surprised at the redeemed votes.

After killing Han, Kylo now must be killed.

At the end of episode 9 mind you. Because he is an awesome character and I want to see his full story arc.

 

I've never really understood this. I mean..I do and I don't. I guess I just want other people's perspective on this.

He decided to save Luke the one time, does that get rid of everything else Anakin ever did? The Jedi? Obi Wan? Padme?

It's like if Voldemort decided to let Harry live- does that make the thousands he killed okay? How can you ever really be redeemed from that?

 

We are free to do whatever we want. If you think he detoured on the way to Snoke and you have some reason from watching to think that, I'd read it and process it.

Kylo did hide some stuff from Snoke, but in that moment after Rey pulled the Vader line, he came across totally thrown to me. We just watched the movie again in my house and if I could screen cap the moment before Hux came in, I would. Kylo looked really upset. Then Hux came in and he was caught without his helmet and he looked even more flustered. Then the next shot he has his helmet back on and he's marching back to Rey all determined.

At no point in TFA did he "run" to Vader's helmet. He talked to Vader's helmet once, and he was calm and collected, and they couldn't decide where to put the scene in the movie.

If you think the scene I "created" is false, disagree with it. If you think I'm being disingenuous, stop debating with me. That'd be perfectly cool with me, frankly.

 

I think most of you are making a mistake.

George Lucas said some time ago, on camera, probably around the Special Edition or prequel era, that Vader was not "redeemed" or "absolved". There was no way he could ever pay for the sins he committed against the galaxy. BUT, Lucas DID say that it was possible for Vader to choose to STOP committing evil. By stopping the evil, he could bring about the end of the Empire. I don't have the exact quote, but this what he stated very clearly. The word "redeemed" is probably being used improperly here, for Kylo. So, I think we should stop using that.

For Kylo, I think the proper word would be "saved". Can HE be saved from the deception and delusion he is under, via Snoke?

If Kylo can be saved, then MANY MORE can also be saved, just as Vader saved the galaxy from any further turmoil.

 

Hi there !

agree on "stay on topic" thing. And topic is Redemption or not for Kylo.
OK, From my pov the redemption is a MUST. Please think about bastard disgusting villains in other movies, including SW as well: Darth Maul, Palpatine, Joker from Batman, etc, etc...did we know something about their families, their past ? maybe some of you find this argument weak but the fact that this guy is up to now the only legacy for Skywalker family makes me feel redemption is on the way. AND, I would love Rey not to be a Skywalker at all, but not because the "Reylo topic", JUST because I am a bit fed up that all this SW universe is always depending on Skywalkers being turned to the dark side or not. I hope the screenwritters will give us these two things:

1. Kylo to be redeemed and "balance" Skywalkers fault's on the Light side Force. Keeping him in gray.
2. New FS generation started by Rey and who knows if also by Finn, no related at all with Skywalkers.

 

I listen to alot of SW related podcasts and other media at work, and I will tell you, this line of sentiment is common, much more so than some on this thread want to believe. People underestimate how beloved Han was, and he was killed BRUTALLY.

 

Yeah, that's what I thought and was trying to get across! George is a little conflicting tho- because he leaves it kinda open to interpretation if YOU believe Anakin's been redeemed. Here's some quotes:

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love - primarily the Emperor - and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

But he's also said this: "And obviously there are two sides to the redeemer motif in the Star Wars films. Ultimately Vader is redeemed by his children."

Which is why I think redemption just has a different meaning to everyone. I tend to agree with Leia, and what she's said to Anakin:
"Maybe Vader had died heroically, but ten minutes of contrition did not make up for years of atrocities."

 

Keep in mind, however, two things. In the movie, I think it is clear that although Han seems perhaps surprised by what has happened, he still loves his son. He holds his face as his final gesture.

Additionally, if you did not know, the junior novelization of TFA says plainly that Han forgave his son, and he hoped that his son would forgive him. That's nearly an exact quote.

So the "redemption" route is not only definitely possible, I think it is clearly probable. Even his mother says she KNOWS there isi still light in him. Luke said the SAME thing to Vader upon his capture on the forest moon...and Luke was right.

Kylo will be "redeemed" (I think a more proper word is "saved", or perhaps "forgiven").

 

Vader's redemption does not absolve him of his past. Thats why he only got redemption in sacrificing his life to save his son.

 

Yes, I google what I could, and in fact he actually said what I mentioned more than once, but then also said just the opposite a few times too. I think thep roblem is pretty clear: Lucas did not have all the answers. He created a story with mostly broad strokes, created a universe, but many of the details are open to interpretation because he was not quite prepared to see all the possible angles others might see. But I think if we look at the classical meaning of "redeemed", then Kylo (and Vader) cannot really fit that idea very well. "Saved" or "forgiven" is a much better word for these two (and still very good).

 

The thing that's different here though, is that Kylo has no children to redeem him. He had his parents, one of whom he's murdered, the other may or may not think he's beyond saving. There's Luke, I suppose, but Kylo apparently murdered all of his students, so does HE still believe he can be turned? Then there's Rey, but he tortured her, and nearly killed her only friend, the only one she's known that put himself in danger for her. And if there's no relation there, I'm not sure why she would feel any inclination to help him. Help him into a trash compactor maybe

The common theme here, is that everytime his family believed he could be turned back to the light, he's failed them spectacularly, and caused them incredible pain and loss. At what point is a limit in compassion reached? We will see I guess..

 

Does Vader or Kylo "deserve" to be "redeemed, after all the killing and destruction they have committed?

The answer is clearly "No", but the reason we cheer someone like Vader is two fold: He has fulfilled his destiny as the chosen one, and he is a picture of every sinner. Star Wars borrows heavily from eastern and western philosophies and religions. A primary one is the Christian idea of salvation: That although we are sinners in the eyes of God, mere worms and unworthy of His love, He can still justly redeem us, and give us all riches and everlasting life, despite the fact that as a race, we spat in his eye, cursed his name, and crucified His Son. It is one of the most beautiful and hopeful things in all the galaxy. That even a truly horrible person can be forgiven for their evil ways.

 

In some religions, compassion has no real "limit". It can be given at any time. For Kylo, he has no son to save him, but we do not yet know the relationship between him and Rey, and we don't know what will happen with Leia.

 

In OT, when in ANH we were introduced to Vader we in fact knew nothing about "his past", we only saw an evil "creature", not even knew he was a human being, and of couse we did not know he was Luke's father. In fact I was 8 at that time and I was convinced he was a robot, not human.

BUT, in TFA we do know from the very beginning who this masked creature is: Han and Leia's son, and if this is not enough..-he unmasked quite early to show us that he is a young human being (not deformed monster)...mmmm, why the screenwritters doing so if they do not really want us to be conflicted about if the guy should be destroyed as the evil he is, or start feeling compassion for his fate and wonder if a "redemption" or "save" is possible for him.

 

Im sure Han would want that to happen to his son, especially after he caressed his face like that...what he really meant was...someone stab him in the eye for me.

what I think must happen is that Hans death shouldnt be in vain, if Ren truly turns dark and does not come home...then it means Han died in vain and his overall story in the saga was a failure.


Can I ask a question. This is important to the answer of this thread. Someone said somewhere on this forum that Ren will be wearing a gray cloak in the next film? Does anyone know where that post is?

If he is wearing that cloak, it means he's moving away from the dark side to a more gray area..like Rey is moving from the light to a more gray area after what happened on the base...if anyone has the quote/info about where that was said, can someone direct me towards it?

 

So looking boyish and handsome is the reason we should feel sympathy for Kylo? That seems.. wrong. Evil people come in all forms, as do decent people.

I personally don't feel it's enough that hes Han and Leia's son. He certainly didn't give much of a damn that Han was his father. He ran him through, and caused considerable pain to Leia in the process (especially since she sent Han to retrieve him in the first place). Why is he owed compassion when he has demonstrated it to exactly zero people?

 

Doubtful development for ep8&9.

I think he will be the example of the saga that some guys are just bad monsters without hope