ST Kylo Ren's Future/Fate. Death/Redemption/Other?

Thats actually pretty clear development in the next story..he'll begin to love anakin and not Vader

In my personal opinion, it makes no sense for us to see Ren as so dark at the start of the story, then show him begin to unravel, take his mask off and reveal himself to be to be a human and having light inside him, showing him be clearly tempted by a girl and even after he kills his dad, he wants to go against Snoke's orders and be her teacher, we then see a bunch of shots in the fight which suggest a redemption arc, most notably the blue saber up, the red one down, then they decide to turn him dark again at the end?. That never happens in story telling because it makes whatever we saw in the middle with that character redundant and a huge waste of screen time..I hope the writers are more competent than that..they should be, they are professionals. The ren we meet is as close to vader as anything, then he starts to change..you dont have: Ordinary world, disruption and then ordinary world again which is exactly the same as before...no a character you meet at the start, 99.9 percent of the time does not end up exactly the same as they were at the start.

 

Vader will be upset I guess

 

Vader is gone by the end of the original trilogy and Anakin is back..so Vader wont care because Vader doesnt exist anymore.

 

Yes I agree. I think for me it is alluding to that moment being too much to come back from. It was his final freeing of this pull to the light. This conflict in him. So now it was so heinous an act, that to be redeemed later seams a disservice to Han's character. Even Vader never killed Luke, despite his numerous atrocities.

So again, to see the poll so favoured for redemption of some sort, is confusing to me.

 

Ok so I guess thats why in the Novel they say that he comes back from it, and the script says he comes back from it...the film also suggests that he comes back from it. There is little to no textual evidence anywhere that Ren does not come back from killing his dad, where as there is a lot to back up that he does. Youre surprised that a lot of people see redemption after a film/novel and script clearly suggest one?

 

ok. then ANAKIN will look like this

 

So? I disagree. I don't agree with a redemption for Kylo.

Feel free to disagree.

 

I just think it's something that is taken for granted, given the history of the franchise. Idk that so many people think he's EARNED redemption, so much as they just assume it's going to happen. Also many think that the redemptive act will be a noble sacrifice of some sort, not necessarily Kylo riding happily into the sunset.

 

Yes ! And those of you wanting him to become even more "evil"...bear in mind that there is only one thing that is even more evil than killing your own father (or mother), which is killing your own son or daughter. Nothing else. Even if Kylo could kill the entire galaxy, the worst thing he had done would be killing his father. So, he is in his worst moment, it cannot be worst !

And because killing a son/daughter is the worst and evilness thing ever...that's why GL and LK did not go in that way in OT and decided that Vader will be "saved" at the last minute by his own son, while Palpatine was demanding Vader to kill him.

 

This tantrum interpretation makes no sense to me. A tantrum wasn't shown (and since the filmmakers clearly enjoyed showing Kylo's tantrums as comic moments, why would they hold back?).

Moreover, what Kylo actually did made sense in-film. He even explained what he wanted by the end of the scene! He tried to get the map, he failed, but he learned something new and extremely important about Rey--that she is incredibly strong in the force and yet untrained. After failing to get the map, he immediately went and reported that vital piece of information to his master. Secondarily, he (at the end of the scene) asked Snoke for guidance on getting the information he had failed to retrieve on his own.

Kylo's motivations and behavior in this sequence are probably his least opaque in the film, because he explains them and we are allowed to see his face throughout. He wasn't pleased to have Rey enter his mind and read his big secret, but if he'd been inclined to tantrums or revenge for the reversal, well, he had free range to take his ire out on Rey. She was tied to a table, and I doubt that she knew how to defend herself physically with the force yet.

All he did was hit a wall in his questioning then report the information he did manage to learn in the interrogation so far.

That's why I think that whatever redemption story Kylo has ultimately has to come from himself, his own decisions and actions. He has to recognize his hamartia* or "error" and then act on his own to address the wrong he has done.

(*In tragedy, Kylo's hamartia would be how he "missed the mark," like a poorly aimed arrow, at some point in the past. The ancient greek word is commonly translated as "tragic flaw" but that is wrong, because it implies a character flaw, when the actual word suggests a great "error" made at some point that puts a tragic character on the wrong path.)

Whether or not we believe his opinion, Kylo seems to think his parents abandoned him or betrayed him. They--or at least Han--are insuffiecnt to the task of redeeming him, though it looked to me (to me!) like Han came pretty close to "seducing" his son back home.

Since his family has failed every time in the past, Rey is the next best candidate to "seduce" Kylo to the light (not to romance, to light and redemption). If she does, hopefully it won't be a cop out storytelling shortcut like "through the power of her love she saves him." Instead, she'd serve as the example of the path Kylo did not take. An example of what might have been if it hadn't been for his "hamartia."

But in the end, it will come down to Kylo and Kylo's actions. He has to recognize he did wrong, choose to change direction, and begin to make amends. What form those amends take will depend heavily on the genre of the next few films.

 

Whether a character can be redeemed in a fictional universe depends on the rules established by the creators of that universe. In Harry Potter, the most important quality of all, established over and over, is a capacity for love. Love was the defining factor in redemption and salvation in that story: Lily's love for Harry, Snape's love for Lily, and ultimately Harry's love for his friends which allowed him to choose to die willingly to save them. The central characteristic of Voldemort--his defining quality--was an incapacity to feel love. By the rules of Rowling's universe, he cannot be redeemed.

It seems like in Star Wars it has been established that even a very evil character can be redeemed by a single act + death. Whether Kylo will be redeemed will depend on the world that the creators of this new trilogy have developed. What are their rules?

In Christianity, Christ died on the cross so that his Father's people could be redeemed. His death offers redemption, a gift that makes it possible for people to be born anew. Really, Han's death serves a similar purpose. It is just dripping with religious implications. This time, the father dies (willingly!) for his son (thus the reason Han offers to do "anything" to help Ben). Han dies on a cross(guard saber), even! And the last thing he does is touch his child's face, granting forgiveness. That is the most important moment in the movie. And that death both establishes Kylo as a bonafide villain and plants the seed for his redemption. Han's death and forgiveness will gnaw away on Kylo like a termite, undermining the structure he built up over time. It is the turning point for his character, and will not be wasted for making Kylo a worse and worse villain.

Looking boyish and handsome is not a reason to feel sympathy for the character. The fact that the creators of the movie made a huge, huge deal out of revealing that the character was young and handsome (right down to Pantene perfect hair and flattering lighting that makes AD almost not look like himself anymore) should tell the audience that there is a significant point being made.

I don't think that "handsome" is really the point, and many viewers don't perceive AD as handsome after all. But "not as expected," "young," "unfinished," "ambiguous." Those all open the door for a "will he or won't he" dynamic.

This
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/86/d6/69/86d669d7366e12f6451d36aa6d7fd98a.jpg

and this:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/e9/cb/1a/e9cb1aa71e7a6e948156459f77054210.jpg

Is the same character in two different versions of his story. It is made perfectly clear which one is set up for a sympathetic portrayal, and which one is not. People are visual. Artists use that to tell stories.

 

I don't see Kylo to be redeemed, we had this before in the OT and I doubt he will be more conflicted in the upcoming 2 movies. Who else would be the strong villain that the heroes have to fight? I think Kylo/Ben is simply mentally sick and damaged and it will get worse.

 

I think there are other candidates to be the ultimate villain, Snoke being the primary one. There is more to learn about him, and Pablo has indicated that he and Leia were personally acquainted.

This thread is titled "Should Kylo Ren be killed or redeemed?" which ultimately will always bring posters back to personal opinion (ETA to clarify: personal opinion about whether it is right or wrong for the character to be redeemed). And that's OK. And the story is, in fact, still unfinished, so there remains the possibility that they could go "darker and darker." But my professional opinion, based on over a decade helping write, produce and analyze stories of this sort, is that redemption is almost certain to happen. The first third of the story (TFA) sets up a redemption arc and positions all three members of the trio to be essential to it. Finn is the positive example, what Kylo should have done, and he provokes intense jealousy and rage in Kylo. Rey is the guiding light, and whatever kind of connection she has with Kylo will probably be a major influence on his future course. And Kylo is the prodigal son.

It will be interesting to see how the question of Rey's parentage is solved. Should she not be related to the Skywalker family, the redemption arc will be well nigh unavoidable, because Kylo will be the only remaining member of the family. I guess that's why they are keeping her family under a hat.

 

Once more:

The polls (whether in favour or opposed to any particular viewpoint I endorse) on this site are utterly unscientific and just for fun (and perhaps should be abolished given how much angst they cause) since ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE EXCITED ABOUT: 1. STAR WARS AND 2.THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC sufficient enough to register on this site and vote, will have their votes registered. The poll mean diddly squat in view of the GA, storytellers or how the film might end up.

End rant.

 

For me 'killing his father' is the point of no return. Some people may forgive him, but he is really never redeemed in my opinion. He may die saving someone, but he still has killed his father, which for me is unforgiveable. He also showed a lot of signs of mental issues and sick (psychopatic) behavior. If they try to go a redemption route, it will be seen extremely controversial, because like me, I would never see him as redeemed or have symathy for him. If they want to keep him alive, a very long imprisonment should be his fate.

 

nightangel I do not doubt that a redemption story will be controversial among some fans and some segment of the GA. However, I suspect that the vast majority will just accept the story that is told to them (unless it's done extremely poorly) and fork over their money to be entertained. The prediction of mass anger if the story goes this way or that way is probably based on our own strong feelings about the story--which, given that we spend so much time on message boards discussing the story, are atypically intense.

The general viewer will react the way the filmmakers want them to. They will hate Kylo for killing Han after TFA, but by the time the story is finished, most will have gone along with the premise of the (hypothetical) redemption story.

 

Redemption of some of the FO guys but something fresh for Kylo. A bad guy till the end who only has some feelings left for his mother but besides that has become a merciless killer, so Rey has to kill him or we get something fresh - but no simple redemption ending, that would be so lame (we already had the on-your-nose repeated elements of ANH in TFA, that should be enough).
It would work if Leia/Rey would forgive Ren, though. It's important to be able to forgive for personal freedom and to avoid the vicious circle of violence. But Kylo should face some serious consequences, though. So a lot would work for me, just not a repetition of ROTJ (despite the fact that it's my favorite besides ROTS).

Edit: Especially since Kylo puts a lot of effort into doing bad things and preventing being tempted by what we would consider positive thoughts and feelings, a mere redemption would be the absolute worst case. It would make no sense in and out of universe. Star Wars has some beats of wisdom and morality here and there - one of its inspirations is Buddhism (hence attachment is regarded as a potential threat, a possible path to the dark side). Kylo needs to face consequences for his permanent conscious, cruel choices/deeds.

 

he's posing as this badass villain and when he murders han i think that is when his persona and his person actually merge. i think it's possibly the one time he allows himself to feel the weight of his own actions.

we don't know why he's posing so hard, why this is so important to him. that's the interesting question.

my thinking is that once the reason for poser-dom is removed, once he understands that he doesn't need to pretend to be a badass vader clone and needs anger to fuel his false self, he can just be himself and learn who that person is. murdering anyone is going to make that harder but to say that i can't be done... nah. it's only a story, we don't need to sit in judgement of a fictional character and create all these laws and rules around when redemption is acceptable and when it isn't. perhaps my generosity is misguided, but it seems strange to me to deny the potential epic-ness of that story.

a lot of the suggestions that are being made seem bent on a story that ends in a lot of death and sadness, which isn't star wars, really.we already have a tragic arc with him, within that one film, not sure we need any more of it. i think the way it could become sadder is when we learn what happened with him in the past.

doesn't excuse anything, i just get the impression that kylo ren didn't come out of a vacuum.

 

Fair enough.

 

Again, Kylo's redemption wouldn't be "something fresh." It's THE MOST predictable/obvious route that they could possibly go, and the fact that so many people are just, assuming that it MUST happen, is proof of this fact. Frankly NOT redeeming the "Skywalker goes bad" villain would be more "fresh.'

And as for "well the audience will go for it," there have been PLENTY of films where the audience has flat-out rejected the story/theme that the filmmaker was trying to convey, heck that's part of why the PT is so controversial. So assuming that the audience will just buy whatever the fillmmaker is selling, just is premature. And yes, people underestimate what KILLING HAN SOLO, especially the way that it was done, will affect how many in the audience view him. And iconic/beloved (maybe the second most beloved SW character behind Darth Vader even) character for almost 40 years.

 

Thrawn082 Part of the tension, I think, is that TFA opened the door to a whole new demographic (or two) of fans, who may not be as invested in the previous episodes as the longtime Star Wars fandom. It appears to me that this trilogy is actively courting women who may not have been very interested in past installments, and certainly the very large Asian market. Expectations among those viewers are different than the expectations of the longtime fans. Each side is reading the story in a different way, and it's going to be hard to reconcile the two halves.

New fans may not find Han's death anywhere near as unforgivable. Older fans may not be willing to forgive at all. I'm not sure how they will resolve this problem. It may end up being a gamble about which story will secure more sales for the next five movies in their opinion. And there is a lot of new money to be made in these demographics, which largely favor the redemption narrative and a protagonist/antagonist romantic dynamic (not convinced they'll go that way, but I am sure they are going to dangle the possibility of it for as long as possible).

 

"Longtime Star Wars fans" = the masses. These movies have always been mega-hits. Disney/LF have never been courting the hardcore SW fandom that attend comicon and read the EU and discuss SW online. Disney already has a winning formula, and TFA continued exactly on that path. They may be trying to court more of the female audience, but not as aggressively as some make them out to be. There's a void in the toy aisle where Rey and Ahsoka should be.

If LF wanted a romance angle between their protagonist and antagonist, they could have started down that path in TFA (by that I mean obviously, not so subtly few even noticed it). They didn't, and I'm not surprised because they are still recovering from the rejection and mockery of the last "epic romance" in SW that did nothing to bring women to the table. If anything, I'd say women were largely disgusted by Padme's portrayal, specifically after Anakin did awful, villain things. It stretches logic to think they're anxious to write another strong female character weak at the knees for a mass murderer that hurt her.

 

And saying that these new demographics "largely favor redemption/creepy romance" is another assumption. And Disney themselves is keen on Rey being a role model for women/girls, having her fall for the murderer who did such awful things to her and her loved ones, would be themselves shooting them in the foot.

"Hey women, have you ever been in an abusive relationship, or know another woman who has? Well just keep at it and eventually you'll redeem the abusive a-hole through the sheer power of your goody goodness. And young girls, it's totally ok if the man physically assaults you and treats you like crap, just as long as he gives really vague hints that he MIGHT be attracted to you, so you should totally date him."

Yeah, I'm sure that that's the message that Disney wants to send, and risk a backlash.