ST Are there too many implausible coincidences in TFA?

^^ Ditto.

 

Dagobah Dragonsnake wrote

Strangely, Lucas made the ANH first act even more of a coincidence by later deciding that Leia would be Luke's sister, and thus Vader the father of both.

and

Well, I understand the connection since I actually have seen the movies a lot more than once. A lot. The point is that Lucas himself, in trying to rectify certain things, or explain backstories, both solved and created coincidences and he did that without apology.

I still don't see the retroactive ANH coincidence you think you observed.

- Leia, daughter of Bail Organa, is sent to Tatooine to recruit Ben Kenobi > turns out later she is just the foster child of Bail Organa.

- Ben Kenobi, neighbor to the Lars family, recruits Luke Skywalker > turns out later Kenobi watched over him and Luke is the son of Vader

Leia is a rebel spy and Vader is hunting rebel spies. Inevitable that father and daughter meet in this context sooner or later. Leia is sent to recruit the man who watches over her brother and who himself recruits Luke. What looks like coincidence is the culmination of events, an effect whose cause is the relationship between Bail Organa (foster father of Leia) and Obi-Wan Kenobi (guardian angel of Luke Skywalker).

"Coincidence" would have been had Leia been sent to a planet to pick up somebody who had no relationship whatsoever with Luke, who had been on the same planet but making a living as - let's say - a taxi cab driver but was picked from hundred others to choose from and eventually got stuck.with the guy Leia had come for.

 

Some thoughts on Maz Kanata, and the apparent "coincidence" of Maz's Lightsabre stewardship and force knowledge:

First of all, we need to look at the character of Maz, and her role in the film. TFA initially positions Maz as a sort of ancient, legendary pirate, with the smuggling skills to match. Her castle is also positioned as a sort of way station and "safe haven" for a variety of colourful creatures and characters, which is something we are witness to in the film. The atmosphere is fundamentally distinct from the Mos Eisley Cantina, and we can see how.

The castle itself is isolated in a tranquil setting (the mythic resonances of this setting I'll go into a bit later). The multitudes of flags adorning the entrance provide an open invitation to a broad range of species and cultures. Maz, hilariously, has a giant statue of herself above the entrance, which suggests either ego or divinity (more on this later too.) Inside of course we have said colourful characters (not forgetting the wonderful Miyazaki - esquire droid outside) with games and joyful, lighthearted music.

And then we have Maz. On the hand, Han identifies her as the best possible individual to get "bb8 to the resistance," and I believe the film successfully sells us on this aspect of her character. But she is also described in "legendary" terms; she's "run this watering hole for a thousand years". Now whilst I don't think Maz is a Yoda "rip off" (I know some have expressed this opinion) I do think that if we look at the fact that she is at least 1000 years old (Han's dialogue suggests she is somewhat older) and then her appearance in a broad sense (small, eccentric alien) then we can at least see a Yoda influence on her character. So we should not be in the least bit surprised that she turns out to also be "no Jedi", but who also "knows the force."

A recent piece that I've read on TFA by Glen Robert Gill (linked to a little earlier in the thread) posits Maz as "Siduri" form the Gilgamesh myth. He writes,

"like Siduri, Maz Kanata is an example of the initiating maternal-figure, sometimes called the wine-maid or the alewife, of which Queen Whealpeow of Beowulf is another famous example.. in addition to providing hospitality, gifts and parental advice, the alewife's initiating function extends from her association with fermentation and inebriation, which are traditional metaphors of spiritual transcendence/and or unconscious descent."

Siduri is also fundamentally a "wise female divinity" - which also relates a little bit to something I said in a previous post, that Maz was reminiscent of the "Shiva" bartender from Neil Gaiman's World's End Sandman book. But the association with the divine relates both to Maz's statue (the statue of a divine God, as we might see with the statutes of Ancient Greece or Rome), but also to her castle and the Takodana environment itself. As has been mentioned several times already, she is also a "lady of the lake" who presents the sword/sabre to the "chosen one". The medieval fantasy elements of the castle, the lake itself, and the Arthurian Puzzlewood forest all add to this. The mythological lady herself is also a "divine" of sorts, or magical being (she derives her magical power from Merlin).

So essentially in Maz we have a figure who, IMO successfully incorporates both aspects (smuggler pirate/sage or "divine" being) into one character in a coherent fashion - her characterisation and environment all blend together wonderfully, with plenty of mythic resonance. Furthermore, for the reasons above, I would say that the film also successfully sells us that Maz Kanata is the type of character who would have acquired the long lost Bespin sabre. Before Rey even touches the lightsabre, we see that she is already a hoarder of mystical trinkets and ancient artefacts. So to put it another way, if anyone in the Galaxy is to have acquired the sabre, it would be Maz. IMO, the film sells us on this successfully.

Now let's look at the plot progression in getting to Maz. I know that there has been debate about whether Han really knows who Rey is (and that she's really FS) - there might be something in that, but let's leave it aside here. The film has IMO convinced us that Maz Kanata is the best option possible for smuggling bb8 to the resistance. I also believe it successfully sells us that Maz Kanata is a "divine" of some sorts, and/or someone who fits into the archetypal "sage" role too. And it makes all of this explicable, so that it is logical and coherent that her character would fulfill both roles.

Therefore, even if Han is only taking Rey to Maz so that they can deliver bb8, and that he doesn't know that that Rey is FS, or that Maz has the sabre, it is not, in terms of plotting, a lazy coincidence that Rey also meets her "Obi Wan" at Takodana. At best, you could ascribe to it just a very slight "will of the force" or invisible guiding hand, but you don't really even have to do that IMO. There is a clear and logical reason for visiting Maz, (getting bb8 to the resistance) and Maz's character essentially takes care of the rest.

 

It reminds me of what Obi-Wan says to Han, "In my experience, there's no such thing as coincidence."

 

the answer to the original question is no. it is all the will of the force.

 

To me the choice of BB-8 having the map was a classic example of Abrams looking to reference the OT with R2 having the DS plans when really it wasn't the best way to advance the plot. Surely it would make far more sense for the key to finding Luke being some kind of link Rey has to him(either a supressed memory or some kind of force ability) or failing that just have the map left with her.

Firstly that removed the coincidence of her being on the same planet as Lor San Tekka and BB-8 happening to find her. I think it also makes a lot more sense for her to either have the ability to find Luke or the map than it does for the map to exist otherwise, if Luke has deliberately removed himself from the current situation why would he leave a map? its much easier to believe though that he'd leave a map with her hoping for her specifically to find him for some reason or indeed that her link to him is unplanned or something he can't stop.

Kylo ends up kidnapping Rey to get the map from her mind anyway so why not have it there from the start and make him look slightly less incompetent? plus if Rey has unkowlingly had the map it removes the need for it to just be a piece of it(since unlike Lor San Tekka she wouldn't have previously been able to find Luke) and so removes the need for R2 conveniently waking up and providing the rest of the map.

Beyond all of that I just think its good film making to have your lead character more involved with the plot.

 

I don't exactly see any shortage of unrealistic coincidences in either movie. While your above statement gives a logical explanation regarding why the droids were on Tatooine, it sure was one helluva coincidence that after "kidnapping" C-3PO and R2-D2, the jawas decide next stop is the Lars Moisture Farm, where Uncle Owen quite conveniently needed a protocol droid and an astro droid. And then, after picking the wrong astro droid, that droid conveniently breaks down. (And yes I know that some former-EU stories explained it as a voluntary self destruction on R5-D4's part, or perhaps deliberate sabotage by R2-D2, but the movie itself implies absolutely none of that and I am talking about the movie here)

I am not criticizing any of the above; you need these sorts of things in a fantasy adventure. I am just saying there are lots of these types of coincidences throughout the entire saga.

 

Are there too many implausible coincidences in TFA?

I am conflicted on this, as the answer is, frag, yes!

But anyone coming to the SW Saga and EU from the outside, as Disney and Abrams have done, would probably see that a whole lot of the Expanded Universe novels consisted of this trope - or certainly the stuff that I used to read, with Luke, Lando, and someone else, coincidentally meeting up on the same world by random accident.

I could see them coming to the conclusion that the fan base accept this, and use it for TFA.

I just let it go, because that is what I think happened.

 

Are we really still debating about coincidences in a movie about an all powerful force and prophecies and a "chosen one."

It's the will of the force, plain and simple. Fate. Don't make this more complicated than it has to be.

 

Rey, Poe, the Falcon, the map to luke all being on Jakku is a bit much. Should have just made it Tatoonie.

supposedly the Lightsaber was originally on Jakku too.

 

Maybe there is a reason for all of this coincidence and we just don't know it yet. This is part 1 of a 3 part act.

Trust me, the Star Wars writers are aware that Jakku is the equivalent of a small subdivision in Idaho. I think for these particular coincidences, they will tie it all together.

 

Lor San Tekka is there. He knows Kylo and Kylo knows him. He knows Kylo's family. Poe is there because of the map and Lor San Tekka. Lor San Tekka came into possession of the map in a manner we have not yet learned. Finn is on Jakku because of Kylo going to Jakku to get the map. It also appears that the Resistance and the First Order learned almost simultaneously that Lor San Tekka had the map.

The Falcon could be a coincidence ... or not. Rey ... well that is a whole different thread, but it could possibly have something to do with Lor San Tekka also. And when all else fails its the workings and will of the Force.

 

So who stole the Falcon and placed in on Jakku in the exact same township as Rey lives nearby?

Or is there only one settlement on Jakku?

 

"The Falcon could be a coincidence... Or not". We don't know.

 

1.) Rey, Fin and BB8 have a map to Luke Skywalker, and the three of them happen to accidentally stumble on the Millennium Falcon, the very same ship which was so instrumental to the very same Luke Skywalker whose map resides in BB8. What are the chances? it's sw and/or the force.

2.) Rey is captured and it taken to the StarKiller Base planet. Remember this is a PLANET sized facility. Han points out to Finn that he sees Rey. They found her! Phew! What were the chances of that? How in the hell is it realistically possible to find someone on a planet[/b] when you don't know where they are or where to start looking? it's sw and/or the force.

3.) Maz has Luke's lightsaber. When I first saw the movie, I though that this wasn't a coincidence, because I thought that was why Han took Rey and Finn to see her. But, upon second viewing, Han didn't know Maz had the lightsaber. Han even says, "where did you get that?" So incredibly, Rey and Finn are looking for Luke Skywalker, and Han takes them to see an old friend, who, UNBEKNOWNST TO HAN has the lightsaber of the very same Luke Skywalker that Finn and Rey were looking for. it's sw and/or the force.

4.) The ground opens up between Rey and Kylo Ren just when the story decides it is convenient to do so. it's sw and/or the force.

5.) By pure coincidence, the one stromtrooper in the whole galaxy who doesn't have a gun,
(when all that was needed to kill Finn was a gun) happens to come across Finn, and two two engage in a "sword vs sword duel, when a "gun vs sword" duel, (which would be the case with 99.999% of the other stormtroopers) would end in death for Finn? What were the chances? the trooper threw his weapons away because he wanted to kick finn's ass. there's also backstory between them.

 

Are there too many implausible coincidences in TFA?

NO

No more than any other SW movie, btw.

 

Thanks for that input. Concise and to the point. Full of information discounting all of the coincidences that occur.

 

Which means its horrible storytelling as we shouldn't have to wait for a mystery box with a fricken movie.

 

Why not? I have zero problem whatsoever with a movie keeping some secrets for later on. We all knew this was the first part of a trilogy when we went to see it.

 

lol.

 

If minor plot points like why the Falcon was on Jakku in the exact same town that Rey frequents is going to be explained in either of the next two movies, we will spend the entire time learning all the plot holes of TFA rather than progress the story. It is a simple plot contrivance to get Han into the story.

 

we already know why the falcon was on jakku!

 

Lucas used coincidence with abandon, and also said many times not to let details get in the way of the story. If the coincidence and unexplained parts of TFA are upsetting to anyone, I wonder how they plowed through the other six episodes which are rife with holes, unanswered backstories and coincidences. Personally, I just accepted some of that, got some of it from the ancillary material, and focused on enjoying to stories and characters.

 

mythology doesn't have to be plausible. people keep forgetting. MYTH-O-LOGY.

 

What we know -

- Rey was left on Jakku by someone she cares about

- The Falcon was stolen from Han at some point

- Unkar Plutt is the person that appears to have taken custody of Rey when left on Jakku

- The Falcon was in possession of Unkar Plutt


Who knows? Perhaps the person that stole the Falcon is the same person that left Rey on Jakku with Unkar Plutt and they worked out some sort of trade to give Plutt the piece of junk Falcon and a slave/scavenger asset in exchange for a newer ship?

Heck, maybe it was Kylo Ren that dropped Rey off and that's what prompted his "What girl?!" rant when he found out a girl from Jakku was involved with the stolen map.

Let the story play out. There is still a ton of mystery to uncover.