PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

Again, people have had 17 years to get used to that. It still rates badly in current polls & ratings.

 

Except for they are not bad movies many fans enjoyed them when they were released and still enjoy them now. Also to learn the definition of "subjective" seems you can learn to understand that before making ridiculous claims.

 

That's why I said "most", not "everyone".

 

Get used to what? And polls don't speak for anything they are useless as critic reviews are. Judging by the Box office dvd sales and even the 3D release a lot of fans enjoy TPM much more than the internet will have you believe.

 

Get used to what? And polls don't speak for anything they are useless as critic reviews are. Judging by the Box office dvd sales and even the 3D release a lot of fans enjoy TPM much more than the internet will have you believe.

 

On paper The Phantom Menace should be the biggest hit movie of all time.

There is more in that one movie than the entire Original Trilogy with an immersive volume of effects and variety of characters used to create a complete world the likes of which had never happened before. It's the dawn of a huge bold new world of movie making. The production design is top notch. Jar Jar looks real. There are no limits on what spaceships look like and can do.

I personally really like the movie, but can understand why some people don't. I think the movie was made with a lot of thought and love to continue the story of Star Wars while being different from what we saw before in fresh new expanded ways.

It was planned to not be a disappointment, and I'm sure anyone who saw the pieces of it coming together from 1997 to 1999 would be sure it was going to be really amazing and every bit as good as the originals.

Unlike the previous Star Wars films, we got the movie the director wanted to make. And I'm sure the film itself is not a disappointment for him.

 

But as Lucas says, SW is not about spaceships & special effects. It's about people, characters & families. Too many people found the characters in TPM dull & unappealing. IMO that's the crux of the problem with the movie.

As Mark Hamill said, box office sales do not automatically indicate acclaim. See Transformers for example. On the other hand movies like TDK, The Avengers & TFA achieve massive commercial success AND very high ratings from fans & the public.

What's also odd is that you place a huge importance on individual opinion. Yet the average opinion of many thousands of people shown in a poll is "useless"

Anyway this thread is about how TPM could've disappointed fewer people. If you're one of the ones who wasn't disappointed then great. No point arguing that the film wasn't disappointing though. It was to an enormous number of people. Even alot of the cast felt that way.

 

No doubt - I think when they were making the movie - it was assumed that the characters were exciting and appealing - that was the easy part - and the new freedom of limitless special effects would only enhance them and wow audiences. So to answer the questions of the thread -

"should GL have done more to have ensured TPM wasnt a disappointment"


I think he did everything he could to ensure it. If the Phantom Menace does disappoint, maybe the correct questions should be
"Shoudl GL have done less to ensure TPM wasn't a disappointment."


Now that we are in the post George Lucas stage of Star Wars it will be interesting to see if history reassess the Prequels in some ways. I think TPM is pretty impressive on many levels the OT isn't.

P.S. - There is something amazing about the visual storytelling of Michael Bay films. In some ways I feel like he had more in common with directors like Wes Anderson, The Coen Brothers, and Quintin Tarintino than other big budget popcorn film directors. For better or worse his movies are ahead of what we saw in TDK and the Avengers in many ways.

The ending of the third Transformers is pretty much a scaled up version of the finale of the first Avengers but a year earlier. Of course all the robots look the same so I can't tell what going on half the time. In avengers it's super generic aliens against some of the most memorable and recognizable heros of all time. So not only do I know what's going on I care about the characters.

 

Ahhh the classic underestimate the box office like it doesn't matter but last I checked films are made for 2 purposes to entertain and make money. Anywho, yes I place a huge importance on individual opinion because that is all that truly matters. When you go see a film nothing matters other than that what you thought of the film. I don't subscribe to sheep like mentality that just because a vocal minority may scream the loudest that it speaks to the true experience of the film. It's just the nature of the beast with human nature. You just can't please everyone. So yes getting back to the point of this thread as I said before Lucas was doomed with the OT fans. The only way to make it less disappointing to them would be to go against his artistic intergrity which thankfully he didn't do.

 

If you think it's only "OT fans" who dislike TPM you're dead wrong. There are countless younger fans who grew up with the PT who now on reflection think TPM is a mediocre film. Then there are all of the casual moviegoers & critics who weren't even SW fans at all. Who simply evaluated TPM as a movie & felt that it wasn't very good. Writing off the issue as just an "OT fan thing" is incorrect & a gross simplification.

As I've said, to answer this thread question I think we can get the answers from Lucas himself. He's said that he hates directing & he's a poor writer. So he should've had other people do both of those jobs. He tried to arrange this. He should've tried harder.

 

To be fair - there are countless younger fans who grew up with the PT who now on reflection think TPM is nerfing awesome. I'd say let's count the ones who think it's nerfing awesome and those who think it's mediocre to see which group is larger.... But alas as you said - it's countless. That means too many to be counted; very many.


Frowny Face

I like Phantom Menace. Other people love Willow, Labyrinth, Neverending Story, Dark Crystal, or Clash of the Titans. And those people are passionately passionate about that love. No doubt such love exists for TPM. I'd argue all of those films were made with the highest of hopes and strongest of sincere commitments.

Surely you see that there are redeeming qualities in TPM. And sure George Lucas says he hates the pressure of directing and who likes sitting for the long hours it takes to write a script - but part of life is doing what we don't want to. When is not being the best at something or liking it a good reason not to do it. (It's not like it was open heart surgery. It's movie making - with his own money.) In a way George Lucas doing a job he didn't want to do makes it more admirable.

And in 1997 no one else was willing to do that job. He had to do it, and the entire world wanted him to do it.

Darth Downunder it's fair for you to say the final movie is not something you like, or in your opinion not a success. But George Lucas seems to have tried as hard as he could with the time and money available.

With those limitations he made the movie he wanted to make. Unfortunately that's just not the movie you wanted.

 

In this particular discussion I don't think it matters what I wanted or what you wanted. The questions is, what could've been done to make TPM a highly acclaimed, award winning, well received movie across a far larger section of the audience. For it to've reached The Matrix or TDK levels of acclaim. Instead of receiving such a mixed reception, Razzie awards, constant ridicule, & even having its own cast bagging it. It's a simple question that even fans of the movie should be able to discuss logically without going into PT Defender Mode.

Like I said, alot of the criticism from those who don't like it seemed to center around the flat performances (that even the cast acknowledge) & bad dialogue. So having a director who loved directing & who is a great director of actors would've gone a long way to improving one of those areas. Having multiple script writers to draft & re-draft the script would've helped the other. Those two factors would've made a huge difference IMO.

 

From "The Making of Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith":

"If I'd taken the prequel trilogy to a marketing company, Episode I would have started here [with Episode III] - and Episodes II and III would've been about Darth Vader killing people. But in the end, I wouldn't be able to write movies like that."

IOW, if his goal had been to avoid disappointing the fans, that's what would've happened. He would've made a movie that he did not want to make.

So, no.

 

I always disagreed with that quote from Lucas cause that is a such a generalization that doesn't jive with what most fans wanted about the Prequels. I'm sure there are a small base of fans that wanted to see Darth Vader killing people for 3 movies, but most fans wanted to see HOW he turned to the darkside.

My only beef with Episode 1 is we don't see enough Anakin & Kenobi in the movie as they are essentially bit players in the movie. The whole Prequels is about their friendship along with Anakin's/Padme's marriage and his eventual turn to the darkside. By having QuiGon the main player in Episode 1 along with a 10 year old Anakin, it sort of wasted chance to establish all of the relationships that then had to take place in Episode 2.

Episode 1 should have been Obiwan finding Anakin, and the whole movie shows the start of their friendship and it develops it so we care about both of them. Then by Episode 3 when they fight on Mustafar it is much more tragic, but I just never felt Lucas developed their friendship enough for me to care and a big part is wasting Episode 1 on QuiGon.

 

No need to shuffle the story around & start with Vader. The same basic story as told in the PT could've been executed in a far superior way. With improved dialogue & far more convincing performances for starters.

 

He could have hired people to direct and help out with the script. Should he have, though?
That depends entirely on whether or not he would have. AFAIK, Kasdan and Darabont were both asked to write the script and turned down the offer. George was encouraged to write it himself, so he did.
(IOW, some fans who are of the opinion that he should've been less self-reliant and listened to people around him actually ended up disappointed because he listened )
As far as directing goes, his original plan was to direct TPM himself and hand over the reins for the other two.

So, the answer to whether or not he would have is yes and no. Since Star Wars was entirely his thing, that means that it could definitely be said that he should have hired someone to write the script for him.

I still feel that he should not have done more to please people, though. Especially considering the fact that whenever I watch TPM, I am beyond pleased.

 

Sorry for the late reply.
Actaully I was meaning the initial reception. Refering to the fact that people were setting their expectations so high at the time, that no matter what it would disappoint some. I do agree that if this was a Blade Runner situation TPM would be more fondly remembered by now. I still like the film and no poles or reviews will change that. Now the rest of what I'm going to say is just my opinion and nothing more then that. But one thing that could have softened the backlash, as well as one of my main problems not just with TPM but with the whole PT is characters. They didn't seem that memorable to me, nor was there much character development in my oponion. What's so great about the OT were that the characters were so memorable, and where the story wasn't that complex the characters had depth to them. One of the main draws of star wars are the characters and where I feel the film succeeded in the visuals and world building, I wasn't as impressed by the characters. Just my opinion, I still like the PT but it doesn't mean I wouldn't have done some things different.

 

Completely agree. They're memorable bcs they were passionate & charismatic. Not stiff & dull. Their friendships were obvious & seemed genuine. The characters in the PT often just seemed like actors put in the same room together. Their caring for each other wasn't at all convincing. The OT characters are just far more likeable, & that's also a strength of the ST so far.

 

DD your problem is you take much stock in the vocal haters. I stand by that many enjoyed TPM a lot more than the internet will have you believe. Of course haters are more vocal but it is no way speak to the quality of the film itself. Plenty of people enjoy TPM till this day I bet if it was re released in theaters next week it would still do good. There is a strong myth that the PT is overwhelming hated and that is simply not true.

As far as issues with bad dialogue etc that is entirely subjective though if OT purists were being honest with themselves the OT is filled with cheesy dialogue as well. What makes OT fans lose even more credibility is they judge the PT but don't use those so called same standards with OT. But to me its their loss I have seven films to enjoy while they only have 4 sucks for them.

 

Bah. This thread turned for the worse.

I blame DD and his record deal with Donny Osmand...

 

What......

 

I like the way you think Darth Downunder, the thread is based on a rather simple premise and no doubt most members here are clearly intelligent people (far more than I am) but it's strange that most just use this as a "TPM is perfect in every way, from the camel-creature farting, to Darth Maul having almost no lines, to Jar Jar shouting "my give up!" after having dropped a load of CGI bomb balls that just happened to destroy a butt-load of tanks, it was perfect, and it's not GL's fault that lots of OT fans didn't like it!" thread.

I absolutely love the greater parts of this movie, I've been watching it over and over with different commentaries and such this week, and Qui-Gonns scenes get better and better with each viewing, Obiwan is off the hook awesome, and even some Anakin, Watto and Padme scenes are beginning to feel like they really contribute to the SW universe more than they ever used to, but that doesn't make up for the obvious flaws in the movie - and I am going to retract a lot of my apologetic posts regarding the OP, I was completely right to say "YOU HAVE TO ADMIT THAT THERE ARE SOME UNFORGIVABLE FLAWS" or whatever I said - they are considered unforgivable by the majority of the people who were and continue today to be disappointed with the film, which makes them flaws IN REGARD TO THE RECEPTION OF THE FILM regardless of whether many of us hardcore fans ignore them, forgive them or even actually love them, the thread isn't about YOUR OPINION OF THE FINAL FILM, it's about what could/should have been done to ensure that, in 1999, when everyone walked out of the cinema, they were shouting "WOW, Star Wars is back and better than ever!" rather than "well, that's ruined my childhood!" as the majority were.

I truly love this film but I cannot help but see the potential for it to have been a masterpiece and to have hit every note for the majority of the fan-base, new and old alike, to have been the best SW movie at the time, totally surpassing the OT, it really did/does have that potential, Darth Maul is one of the most badass villains of all time besides Vader (not just in SW but EVER), Qui-Gon is immense, wise and truly unlocks the deeper understanding of the force that Alec's Obiwan only ever really touched upon, but without destroying the wonder of it (midichlorians aside - which aren't a bad thing but I understand why people don't like that idea and I think it should have been presented as a theory rather than a fact in-universe, the presence of more midichlorians in force sensitives could be a result rather than a cause of the force sensitivity, in all fairness,unless it was proven to be the cause, in-universe), and even added new wonders to it - the force has a will now, meaning that the force could well be related to a sentient being, the one we call "God" in our galaxy/IRL, and the dark side could be related to what/who we call "Satan" in Judeo-Christian faiths, there is even a mention of angels, which is interesting... Not to mention that a lot of themes, words and names are biblical (as well as extracted from other religions and from many mythologies), so making the force something that we can believe in as something that maybe a lot of us really believe in, viewed from a different point of view is great, a seed was planted there, and wasn't really expanded upon, but Qui-gon added a lot with his exposition on the force throughout the movie. More focus on this would have been great.

Instead we get far too much that is there mainly to appeal to young children and show off now-outdated, then-amazing special effects that really didn't add anything to the film, in some cases. On the other hand, some of the worlds, scenery and characters that they did create were amazing, and really fleshed out the universe. What we ended up with is a case of compromise, taking the good with the bad, but with the right focus from GL, it could have been one hell of a monster of a movie and ticked enough boxes to live up to the hype and slam everyone in the face, to high critical acclaim and to be regarded as a classic movie in its own right. IMO.


Also, it isn't a discussion about whether GL should have told the story how he wanted or told a different story to appease us, it's about what he should have done (if anything, IYO or IMO) to avoid the huge disappointment in its reception.
There is a huge difference in saying that certain scenes might have been done differently, added, removed, extended, shortened, see more of certain characters, see less of others, etc, and totally changing the premise of the movie. MAYBE some feel that the movie could have been made to tell a different story, but that's not what the thread is about, though if anyone feels that way about the movie, that's their prerogative, I like the story being told, I just don't like a lot (or maybe a few but it feels like a lot) of the decisions that were made and the scenes that resulted from making those decisions, but I wouldn't want a totally different movie. I'm not saying that The Ritz should be demolished and replaced with The Shard, I'm saying that the paintwork, decorations and perhaps some of the interior layout could have been better and would attract more guests, it's not really that hard to understand lol

 

You're just trying to use exaggerated terms to refute the main point. It may not be "overwhelmingly hated" but then who said that it was? Of course "many" enjoyed it. We're talking about why it's poorly regarded compared to the other movies. Why it's always at the bottom of SW movie polls, even those conducted here on the JCF. If you want to handwave all of that away as a myth that's up to you. An image of an ostrich sticking its head in the sand does spring to mind though

 

For him to avoid everything, he should have gotten a new director, made the characters like the OT, used technology like the OT, and make the story about hotshot Anakin...

So many more but thats just it right there...

 

Let's tone it down a bit, please.