PT Should Lucas Have Done More to Ensure TPM Didn't Disappoint Some Fans?

I agree that something like the Matrix was more successful at capturing the zeitgeist of the time (well, in adult nerd culture anyway). In contrast TPM was the most child friendly Star Wars, and that's not what the adult Star Wars fans wanted. They thought the movie would be targeted for them, and, well, it wasn't.

In retrospect it's probably for the best that Lucas did things the way he did. He may have lost some old fans but he gained a lot more young ones. And anyway, if he had made something more in the vein of what the old fans were expecting, it probably wouldn't have aged as well - compare how poorly the Matrix has aged compared to TPM, for example.

Having Kasdan involved with the script might have made it feel closer to ESB and RotJ, but whether that's a good thing or not is a matter of opinion - I sometimes feel that those movies suffer from too many cooks syndrome. Anyway I think Lucas' style works well for depicting the "more civilized" world of the prequels. I would agree that the same approach wouldn't have been as good if he had been making the sequels instead of the prequels. Anyway I'd rather have gotten the beautiful, interesting, unique movies we did rather than ones that simply felt like OT 2.0, which I think is what everyone was expecting in 1999.

 

So let me get this straight DD you say box office doesn't matter yet you take stock into fans polls? Doesn't make much sense there DD sorry . Personally I think the box office is a good indicator of quality because it shows what the general public (you know the ones that pay their hard earned money to see films) are into. Anyhow we seem to be going in circles well just have to agree to disagree on this.

 

Star Wars is always going to sell, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will always be well-received. Not everyone likes Coco Pops, and even if they do they might not like cheaper brand versions, but when they see a clone of Coco pops with Star Wars emblazoned across the box, probably they would buy it anyway, and then complain about how gross the cereal was... And they could discuss about what they think could have been improved to make that cereal better lol

 

I saw that you quoted me but it's been edited - if there's anything that you think was interesting to read in that post that you don't mind typing out again, feel free to PM.

 

Studios as a whole don't always care about what the fans want, but about what they think will make money. Remember that when Lucas was trying to pitch ANH, nobody understood it and if anyone other than Fox took the film, they would have put their hands in it too much to make it something else. And if he hadn't fought for control, TESB and ROTJ would have been far different from what we got. And then we come to TFA, which is focused more on nostalgia than stronger storytelling and you get this film. Lucas even said in his interview, that this was going to be the film that the fans wanted and he said it with disdain because it was going against what he felt was the important principles of the Saga.

 

It already was excuted in a far superior way. Anyone else's dialogue would just get in the way and the way they want performances would likely be exactly what the story doesn't need.

If you think the PT is stiff and dull that is what it is for you. For me it's not that at all. The emotional resonance of the prequels I find is far deeper and more emotional than the other movies overall.

The PT characters were never supposed to be as "likeable" as the OT characters. Actually I find the ST characters far more "likeable" than the OT (but they aren't near as interesting and not even in the same league with the PT characters).

 

Same. I find the ST more likable and entertaining

That's not a BAD thing. But it doesn't bring me into their character more. The characters from the PT, had lots of depth to it.

 

I am excited to see what I guy like Rian Johnson does with those characters in the future, but I think this is a main point of difference between TFA and the preceding Star Wars films as a whole. In that, whilst don't get me wrong I think the actors do a good job, they feel more specifically designed/calculated to be likable than being as dynamic as the ones who came before. Really coming off in just how spontaneously everybody's friendships started. (Poe and Finn out the game in spite of big reasons to distrust each other having all that "bro" talk in the TIE fighter with the "it' s nice to meet you" exchange being the most glaring example, Finn and Rey with in particularly him immediately falling in love with her to the point he's able to get over his self-preservation mentality, after fifteen minutes of screen time knowing each other Han offering Rey a permanent job and she coming to see him as the father she never had, etc) It feels as if they wanted to have the friendships that developed in the OT out the gate without earning it like they did.

There is next to none of the tension previous relationships in the saga had at times between its heroic characters. I cannot help but wonder if it is a direct response to the complaining from a number of people that Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship did not feel friendly. But even then it seems people miss things like Han and Chewy's condescending attitudes towards both Luke and Obi-Wan for much of the original film, Leia treating all of her rescuers with some level of snark during the escape from the Death Star, or even the bickering between the droids that gets them to split-up until they're essentially forced back together.

Character-flaw wise you had Luke and Anakin who could both be whiny, self-important, cocky, and brash at points. Anakin also had problems with him dealing with his sense of a lack of control which becomes central to his fall to the Dark Side and Luke could be a pushover as shown in his relationship with Owen who he lets control his life in spite of his complaining which plays well into when a bunch of people with authority over him try to push him to do things he thinks are wrong in ROTJ. (even Han could be greedy and condescending or Obi-Wan pompous and dogmatic while we're at it) Rey, again likable and provided with a good performance, feels a lot safer by comparison. The worst is, she has trouble letting go of waiting for her family on Jakku. In all fairness Anakin's flaws might not come off as prominent until AOTC, though his fear of loss and cockiness are still given their introduction/foundation in TPM, given that they were portraying him as still having his childhood innocence. But Rey's being "left behind" issues are seemingly arced through in TFA with her finally excepting her destiny to become a Jedi when using the Force to take up the lightsaber and defeat Kylo Ren which makes me think it isn't something that will be expanded into something bigger in the following movies. The lightsaber being what Maz had offered her earlier as a symbol of her moving on with her life, thus is why afterward she's willing to go seek out Luke at the very end. (I guess Finn's cowardice I suppose came the closest to feeling like a flaw from the preceding films maybe.) I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Who knows, maybe they'll surprise me. We've got two more movies to play with them. But I will still stand by that it did feel like character-wise in this particularly the film the bigger concern was making them and their relationships with each other as broadly likable as possible than making them compelling in the same way I felt preceding Star Wars protagonists and theirs were. Though of course as usual that is just me speaking for my own opinion, not trying to bash or belittle anyone else's.

 

He definitely said it with disdain, yes. There was a rather involved discussion between a few of us about the meaning of Lucas' remark -- "The fans will love it" -- at the beginning of the year; and his attitude to the film generally. Starts somewhere around here:

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/...-plotlines-spoilers-allowed.50035228/page-125

Subsequent to that discussion, I found a video clip, a few weeks ago, in which Lucas makes plain what he meant by "the fans will love it". If his contempt for the normative Star Wars fanbase isn't obvious in this clip, I charge that a viewer/listener is wearing durasteel blinders:



His response is brilliant, and for posterity, I will type it out below:

(From the European Premiere in London, England)

("What do you hope the fans will take away from seeing The Force Awakens?")

Uh, I don't know, it's hard to say what fans take away, uh, y'know, from the films, and sometimes they see the films very differently than you do" (simpering smile) "So, it's, uh, y'know, I learned that when I added seven frames to show that Han didn't just shoot somebody in cold blood" (big simpering smile) "ha-ha-ha-ha" (George turns away)



Incidentally, that's the same premiere where Lucas was asked, on stage, in front of x number of patrons, what he thought of TFA, and of handing Star Wars over to, let us say, interested outsiders. It is fascinating to revisit this clip (especially in light of the above) and parse his response:






"You're passing the baton of Star Wars onto J.J. It must make you very happy having someone like J.J. taking the reins of something you created."

(I can't help but cringe at the interviewer's extremely simplistic question, but maybe that's just me)

"Ya, it's great, you know, it's, uh... I felt that I had to, uh, pass it on, before I passed on. And, uh, that it would be an easier thing to do, and uh, y'know, at the same time, uh, y'know, J.J. took one tour and said, 'I'm out of here,' so now we have other great directors coming in, and so I have an idea of what they're gonna do, so at least I have an idea what's going on."

That response registers as another big "ouch"-attack (to me). From Lucas' hauntingly ambiguous, "(I felt) that it would be an easier thing to do", to him seemingly having a stab at Abrams for taking "one tour", as if Lucas is accusing Abrams of treating Star Wars like a fairground ride, and not the serious "marriage" that Lucas analogized the making of each movie to be (see his "60 Minutes" interview with Lesley Stahl: the key extract appears as a preface in "The Beginning" documentary for TPM), to Lucas halting more than usual, as if straining to make the answer sound pleasant, and not an outright condemnation (but oh so close to one -- in my opinion).

Small digression:

I just want to flesh out that interesting side remark of Lucas':

- "J.J. took one tour and said, 'I'm out of here'"

versus...



- "The auteur theory of film actually is very true if you know directors, because they are very much like their movies. And in the case of somebody who writes and directs, y'know, it is my life. I mean, everything I write is my life. I'm not writing some sort of hypothetical thesis on something, I'm writing a story that I have to get extremely emotionally involved in 'cos it's gonna take two or three years of my life to do it. So I can't just sort of say, 'Oh, this will be fun', and knock off in a week. I have to, this is like a marriage. This goes on, you have to be in love with this thing for at least four or five years, and probably for the rest of your life."

Not to mention:

- "I asked questions like “How do we make this movie delightful?” That was really the only requirement Larry and I imposed on each other: The movie needed to be delightful" (J.J. Abrams)
Source: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/star-wars-force-awakens-jj-abrams-interview/

- "We had only one goal, which was to delight, to have as much delight in the movie as possible" (Lawrence Kasdan)
Source: http://www.wired.com/2015/11/lawrence-kasdan-qa/

- "We were aware, we were respectful of the canon, but we really wanted to do a story that interested us and delighted us, and didn’t really want any rules and parameters" (Kasdan)
Source: http://variety.com/2015/film/news/s...-post-credits-scene-jar-jar-ewoks-1201655531/

- "The one mandate we had, [Kasdan] said, was that it needed to delight us. And I thought, that sounds good, you know? Delight" (Abrams)
Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-ot-how-the-new-star-wars-begins/



---------------------------------------------------


Anyway, digression aside...


The interviewer talks a little about the setting of the premiere itself, then segues onto this:

"Now, you've seen the movie, and you've seen the new cast. What was your reaction seeing these hugely-talented new faces running with these roles on screen?"

(Again, a brief personal interjection, but I find it interesting how the interviewer front-loads the question and essentially answers for Lucas in advance)

"Great actors, y'know, they're, they did a terrific job, and, y'know, I think it's a movie that the fans will really love."

Lucas, at that point, gives a drawn-out, tight smile, as if waiting for the interviewer to rescue him and bring the interview to a close. It's old ground, but as I said previously when this was discussed, Lucas says nothing about the story, the visuals, the filmmaking. He merely commends the actors after the interviewer already stacked the deck and finishes with a pointed seal of (dis)approval.



And now, the bombshell:

"And that's the most important thing, after all, isn't it?"

(Idiotic question is idiotic)

"Ya."

Mega ouch.

For George and all the fans he quite obviously despises.

And that is why I love Lucas!

Exactly.

Lucas made the films his way, his rules -- without the hindrance of focus groups, fans, and idiot money-lenders.

He created something supremely artistic for an un-artistic culture.

And then the anti-intellectual amoeba reacted as only anti-intellectual amoeba can.

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
- Jonathan Swift, "Thoughts on Various Subjects, Moral And Diverting"

 

More spin Darth Sinister of assuming what fans wanted who liked TFA.

I hated that JJ focused every trailer on Rey, Finn, and Poe as I wanted more Luke, Leia and Han. I hated when I read the spoiler that Luke was only in the movie for 30 seconds. I hated when I read a spoiler that Han & Leia were split up. I was ready to hate TFA.

But I loved it cause Rey carries the movie, and Finn and Poe are great too. I had to eat crow as the OT characters should have had a lesser role. TFA was not what I was expecting so that's another quote by Lucas that is generalizing and isn't true.

The reason I can't wait for Episode 8? Rey vs Kylo Ren part 2. This wasnt even on my radar when the ST was announced so Lucas is wrong that this is a movie made for the OT fans.

 

Doesn't sound like you have much input on how TPM could've been a far better received acclaimed movie then QRB. Not sure why people are using this thread as a TPM defense platform.

See previous comment.

Allow me to explain then PD. For one thing I didn't say that box office returns don't matter. They are however not a direct indicator of whether the audience liked the movie. It just means people purchased a ticket to see it. If anything it reflects the strength & popularity of the brand & the effectiveness of the marketing as much as the reception of the movie itself. Simple question, if you buy a ticket to see a movie does that automatically mean you like it? No it doesn't. But if you rate a movie 5/5 years after you've seen it, then it absolutely does. A poll like that is specifically about your thoughts on the movie. As Mark Hamill said, tonnes of people see Transformers films yet he continually hears that they're not considered particularly good movies. So a huge b.o doesn't automatically equate to public acclaim. On the other hand films like TDK, Avengers & TFA have the combination of huge returns AND very high ratings from fans, critics & the public. It's that combination that is crucial.

Whenever you guys say things like this, I can't help thinking of a farting Eopie & JarJar standing in ****

 

You can cavil and jeer about those moments all you like, but I think that says more about you than it does us.

Something about one's focus determining one's reality?

 

What is a filmmaker's reality when he focuses on fart & poop jokes?

Regardless of people's personal feelings about TPM, we were trying to discuss what could've elevated TPM into being a widely acclaimed, award winning movie. One that won Oscars not Razzies. One that found itself at or near the top of polls asking for the best ever SW movie, instead of always at the bottom of such polls. You should be able to discuss that even if you loved the movie. Instead all some people want to contribute is saying "TPM is awesome"

 

Cryogenic

Wonderful and exquisite. That post, had so much meat and weight, I started to overindulge myself.

Every time I watch that interview, I cringe so much it hurts.

Fans...The most important thing huh....

Quite sad..

 

I must admit I'm a bit confused why people always point to the Avengers as an example of a so-called "objectively good" movie that had both high box office returns and a good metacritic/rotten tomato rating. That movie is so entirely forgettable (in my opinion of course) that all it really seems to show to me is how meaningless it is to point to critic rankings as a measure of a movie's worth.

 

DD....A car dealing, auto ensuring salesman. Yet, why do you sell bad cars? You don't even have to do that. There are good cars, but you keep selling the bad ones.

Think about your family!

 

Bcs we're talking about broad public opinion, not one person's individual opinion. I don't particularly rate the film either.

Really not sure about your recent move into comedy EP

 

The Eopie Anakins!

 

I've just decided to be myself more


Salesman DD: Here, we have a TFA chevy, it comes with great gas mileage, new engine and much better steering and handling than the past 3 car manufactures!

Mr Ezon Pin: Hmm...Car looks good sir, but I have to ask, why so similar to the Hope Honda?

Mrs Cryo Pin: I agree, it seems so...Similar... What happened to the original creator? He was so innovative, created cars like art! The cars he made were all similar, yet, had this poetic nature to it!

 

This oil bath is going to feel soooooo good!

 

Oil? Careful there. Oil tends to have a itching effect on others skin...

 

In case you missed it the topic is:

Should GL have done more...

The topic itself opens the discussion to yes or no answers, and not just a one-sided conversation about what fans wanted to see in TPM to make it better.

 

I love TPM. Saw it 4 times in the theater. Bought the vhs tape. Then the dvd. Then the SW saga blu ray set and watched Episode I first.
I was never disappointed by TPM.
It's a beautiful film!

 

Well the answer is either no or yes. If it's no then that's that. If it's yes then what could have been done?

The OP says: "The question is distinctly what he should have done to prevent disappointment, rather than what he should have done to make what you think would have been a better movie, although your answer might be the same for either, depending on your opinion.". So I believe, & Darth DoJ has said this himself, the point isn't to talk about our personal preferences but rather how TPM could've been a highly acclaimed movie rather than one with a decidedly mixed reception. Even if someone thinks the movie is a masterpiece they're not blind. They can see that it's not rated very highly by fans & the public compared to say ESB, TFA or RotS.

 

How the movie could have been highly acclaimed is subjective, thus any "fixes" are going to be based on personal preferences.

As much as you might want it to be, this thread is not a haters cave where opposing opinions or "defenses" are not allowed. Whether yes or no, people are allowed to expand on their opinion, especially when their opinion is challenged!