ST Andy Serkis (Supreme Leader Snoke) in the ST

"tarkin."

 

Wookipedia doesn't sound nearly as definitive about it:

Believed to have been conceived by the Force, he was born to Shmi Skywalker into a life of slavery on the Outer Rim world of Tatooine

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Anakin_Skywalker

 

Plagueis works whether he created Anakin or prompted the Force to strike back by creating him. Either way, he is responsible for him and the Skywalker bloodline.

 

oh, its still very ambiguous. he AND sidious might be responsible, but that does not mean they 'created' him.. it still means the Force created him, Anakin (and the skywalker bloodline) are all descendants of the Force itself, basically. im sure eventually we'll get some more information, i mean, books like these are what fans really want tbh.

also, on the topic of Snoke needing to be more powerful than Palpatine, thats not really true imo. while Luke fans really expect him to be this over-powered hero of the Light, that may not be the case - and from prior canon (obi-wan, yoda) the Jedi are not as strong as they age.. this leaves room for... well any sort of 'powerful' (but not Sidious/Vader levels) to come in and take control, whether through tricks or some display of 'the ancient religion' to gain respect and lead the FO. i mean, this is all speculation at this point, but the idea the Story group need to 'raise the stakes' doesnt really make sense to me, as we havent seen anything that makes the new villains more threatening than the old. thoughts?

 

And yet Qui-Gon was still quite powerful (as powerful as Obi-Wan in RotS IMO) when he died in TPM. And wookipedia states that Qui-Gon was 60 when he died. So Luke should still be uber powerful in the Force. Because he and Anakin have the same Force potential and even Qui-Gon was powerful in TPM. Look at Dooku who was unambiguously older than Luke is now.

I agree that nothing we've seen so far shows that these villains are more powerful than Sidious/Vader. And that's whats so disappointing to me about them. They don't feel like actual individual threats. And that makes the stakes in this sequel trilogy less interesting to me. That's why Snoke needs to be more powerful. Because in a Saga, each villain always raises the stakes and is more powerful than the one who came before him. From Maul to Dooku to Vader to Sidious...each was more powerful than the last and Snoke needs to continue that trend to make it feel like an organic part of this Saga.

But hey, thats just my opinion.

 

Villains, like any character, need an interesting story and motivation. Then as long as they provide any kind of reasonable threat to the heroes, that's sufficient.

This idea that villains are good based off of increasing power level is video game-cartoon logic. It has nothing to do with storytelling.

 

Just throwing this out there, what if Snoke has a master and he is a puppet or if he is Plagueis and Snoke was the only body he could reside in and he is going to complete Kylos training by inhabiting his body.

 

That scenario would be fine as well (and honestly, the scenario I hope for the most). It would be a villain who ties the entire Saga together.

I'm just saying that if Snoke isn't Plagueis, he needs to be an incredibly powerful individual. And Luke does as well, judging by what we've seen of the older Jedi in the PT era. I mean it seems like the only reason Obi-Wan was weaker in ANH was because Lucas didn't have they mythology all worked out but with Qui-Gon as powerful as he was in TPM, I think there's little evidence that Jedi lose a lot of power as they age (and definitely not in their 50s). Look at how crazy powerful that Dooku was in TPM.

 

problem with that is, the dark side works differently to the light, evidenced throughout all of the Saga. so it might not be explicit, but i would not be surprised if the dark side was able to keep the individual alive for longer, maintaining power (but having to take that energy). its been done in the games/old EU, but theres enough there to suggest that, at least in terms of human characters. the dark side is for the individual, rather than the many, etc.
and while i do sort of agree with you - that qui-gonn was powerful (and by no means do i think Luke wont be powerful), he was still killed by Maul, who was beaten by a young obi-wan, keeping in with what i was saying about how age diminishes the way one can interact with the force, at least in terms of conflict (duels etc).
the dark side have not shown this though, hence why it may only apply to the light.

so you're only disappointed because of power levels? thats rough, man. the setting is what i was alluding to before, how the setting is much different in comparison to the other two trilogies. counter to the name - "the force awakens" we havent seen that happen in terms of larger scale. we've seen it happen in Rey, heard about it with the attempted new academy, and of course Ren. what im saying is that theres been a power vacuum. Luke is gone, so there is not one person who could stand up to someone like Ren or Snoke. they dont have to even be THAT strong to fill this void, let alone as strong as Palpatine and Vader, because they are already the strongest in the galaxy (that we know of).
this is because of Palpatine and Vader - their actions have changed the GFFA, i think thats something really cool, because just upping the ante only diminishes the previous villains actions (if repeated over and over) and inevitably the stories overall.
its like Dra--- said, it'd be like a cartoon - one im thinking of is DBZ - Frieza literally looks like a joke compared to Cell, Buu, etc etc and this is because every season, another stronger being just comes out of nowhere. its not great storytelling, its just a reason to a) increase the stakes (inorganically) b) flashy new powers and c) draw out unnecessary stories (which ironically get stale and boring).
i wouldnt like to see Vader, Dooku, Palpatine /etc/ become a joke just because Disney decided to say "you know what, lets 'increase the stakes' and create some godly dark sider".

 

But again it also risked going too far in the other direction. "Reducing" the new heroes in relation to the old, because they merely had to deal with the "weak wannabes" whereas the old heroes got to deal with the actual powerful villains.

I personal wouldn't like to see Disney say "well the new heroes get stuck with these underwhelming weaklings" just because some fans feel like Vader, Dooku, Sheev, etc would suddenly become "jokes" just because it turned out that their was another guy out there who was on their level power-wise, or a bit stronger. Because I find that notion to be absurd and it again reeks of just pure nostalgia.

 

My guess is he will be Palpatine level basically.

Didn't Lucas say in an interview that age does affect reflexes etc like it normally would so lightsaber fighting could suffer some but that pure force power really isn't affected by that. I thought I remember him saying something like that when quizzed about how Mace Windu was able to overcome Sidious. I think he also said the most powerful guy isnt always the winner in every fight or something similar.

 

Yeah honestly I wasn't too thrilled with what I saw from the villains in TFA. There was no real scale of threat there. And as to your DBZ point, I actually really liked that. I'm really hoping that this trilogy is the complete and definitive end of the Skywalker Saga. So I want the stakes raised and the power levels raised for the villains. Bring it to an end and move on far into the future or far into the past. I want Snoke to be an uber powerful ancient dark sider that menaced the ancient Jedi (if he isn't Plagueis). I want him to be more powerful than Sidious and for Luke to have to throw down like Yoda did against Sidious in RotS. It'll be a pretty big disappointment for me if we don't get to see a knock-down drag out fight between the two of them with lightsabers blazing and incredible feats of the Force.

Snoke should be the ultimate test of Luke and Rey's abilities with the Force.

Or as lawton said, at least make Snoke as powerful as Sidious.

Then let Rey handle Ben.

 

See ending the Skywalker saga removes one of the most interesting elements of this franchise for me. So that'd be disappointing. And there's even less reason to do it now imo since the anthology films have already been set up to do that anyway.

 

I can agree that ending it would remove a very personal and interesting element for me as well. But I really like my stories to have an ending to them too. So that's a real struggle for me as well.

I just find it hard to believe that any potential future trilogy will feature Luke and Leia in a meaningful way. It really seems that Disney is using this as their last hurrah. So in that way, this would be the end of the Skywalker Saga regardless (unless Rey is a Skywalker or Luke has a child sometime in the future). Snoke would be the ultimate culmination of the Skywalker journey so he should be the apex of the dark side powers that the family has been fighting against for the entire 9 movie Saga.

Even if Luke or Leia were to appear in X-XII, they would likely be relegated to a role like Grand Master Yoda in the PT. And while he did some incredible things there, no one would sit there and call the PT the Yoda Saga.

 

the most powerful doesnt always win, thats for sure, otherwise Luke would never have won against the two Sith lords.
well, Lucas can say whatever he wants but it doesnt necessarily mean its canon. Obi-Wan said in ANH that he isnt the same as he used to be and that he's too old for it now. it does look like that when you go back to Obi-Wans feats in the PT - over to his demonstration in the OT. thats canon, so logically he's weaker due to age. but i also agree with your statement about the force vs reflexes, that makes sense to me.

yeh, the opposite is just as bad, which is why im personally looking for something in between. its just that what has been presented seems to fit with one of the earlier comments i made about how theres basically a power vacuum and anyone could step in to take it, they just have to be powerful, in a relative way, to how the heroes of this generation are (including old Luke, who may still indeed be what fans hope, a crazy powerful Grand Master, who knows at this point). which means Snoke may only need to be as powerful as Palpatine, which is what im hoping for, since he is really the only one we have to compare against.. in terms of Sith Lords (who arent Dooku/Vader level).

basically something that just makes sense with what we've been shown over the course of the two trilogies... something CRAZY just wouldnt really sit right. Plagueis would be okay, considering he was powerful with the Force, but wasnt that great with weapons/fighting (from memory?), which is why Palps could kill him.



PlagueisWise was hoping you'd get the DBZ thing, but i was also hoping you wouldnt have liked how that went (Frieza and Cell > Buu / onwards).
i do understand the want for stronger villains and all that, im just trying to make sense of whats been presented - Snoke doesnt look formidable and almost all FS individuals are seemingly gone. even less than in the OT, which was supposed to be the Dark Times (that we know of so far). we had Obi-wan, Yoda, Luke, Vader and Sidious, with Leia later finding out she was too. thats 6, we have Luke, Rey, Ren and Snoke. so 4. it just doesnt seem like its going to go the route of upping the stakes with this setting. i mean, it very well (and easily) could, starting with VIII - but they would really need to make Luke and Snoke FORMIDABLE.

as for the Skywalker thing - its unfortunate to hear this from SW fans. i mean, i would love to see a SW trilogy based on KOTOR or some other setting - thatd be really great. but its been confirmed already that Saga films are the Skywalker movies (in a narrative sense). and im not pissed about this either, but i do find that with TFA and certain creative choices they went with, they did make it hard for themselves to continue these Saga films beyond IX (if that is an intention). unless Rey is Luke's daughter its really hard to see it continue, in which case i would be happy with a Plagueis is Snoke reveal to connect everything together. i just dont see it happening though, but hey, its been done before (and VERY recently with a certain TV show) where execs/actors lie about certain things to keep everyone guessing, until the reveal.

 

According to the Legends novel, Plagueis was actually a pretty powerful fighter. It's honestly debatable whether Sidious would have been able to defeat him in a straight on fight (at least at the time when Sidious became the Dark Lord). He was definitely very skilled in lightsaber combat, at least according to his own Master, but Plagueis preferred the more nuanced uses of the Force.

In the end, Sidious killed Plagueis (in Legends) the night of his election to the office of Supreme Chancellor. They were celebrating, Plagueis got drunk and fell asleep, and Sidious struck. Plagueis prepared himself to fight back but in the end held off, preferring to use the attack as a way of fully testing his powers over the midichlorians on himself.

 

kinda glad thats not the version that would end up in the Saga tbh. seems... idk... i dont wana insult or bash people that do like it, so yeh.

but a new take on how those events went down would be cool to see/hear about in the ST.

Snoke is one of the characters that im most excited about to get some info on. i want to see/hear where he's been and how he's been around for so long without having to get involved, even though he's obviously quite powerful/manipulative to get to his current position (while having a Skywalker descendant as a pawn).

for some reason however, i just feel like he's going to be killed by Kylo in this trilogy. i dont know how/why, but thats what i foresee happening.

 

Yeah I think the only reason Obi-Wan wasn't as powerful is because Lucas didn't have the technology available to have he and Vader spinning and flying all over the place. It'll be interesting to see if Luke has "learned" these lightsabre battle techniques over the past 30 years.

 

not sidious, plagueis. and sidious says plagueis was afraid that the force struck back against his meddling by creating anakin. if plagueis was afraid of that, that's probably what happened.

 

I'm sure if Luke has spent time searching for ancient Jedi lore, he's probably at least picked up information regarding lightsaber forms. I mean, even the Sith utilized the same techniques in that department as the Jedi (though choosing different ones of course).

 

Luke most likely has been using the force in a more active way than Obi-Wan was in the OT. Luke is on a personal mission that involves ancient Jedi, Obi-Wan became a hermit and was trying to blend in for his personal mission to watch over Luke. This is why I believe Obi-Wan's powers to have diminished in the OT

 

What if Snoke was the Mace Windu to Luke's Yoda? Maybe Luke trusted Snoke to keep thr Chancellor of the New Republic in check because of Mace Windu's effort to stop Palpatine.

 

Palps could have been lying about Plagueis. That story in ROTS? It's possible that Palps made it up, that Plaguie Von Plaguie never ever existed.

 

Plagueis has been confirmed canon as Sidious' Sith Master in the Tarkin novel. Confirmed beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Sidious, in his inner monologue in Tarkin, reflects back on his master Plagueis and remembers Plagueis' theory that "the Force could strike back" at them for Plagueis and Sidious' unnatural meddling with the dark side.

 

then theres the Beyond theory as well, which would need a whole lot of explaining (but could be really interesting and add a mysterious to this section of the galaxy)