ST Darth Plagueis is Snoke? (Episode VIII & IX)

Judging a film that Rian Johnson is directing based on a film that JJ Abrams directed, is indeed basing your opinion (that the whole ST is shaping up to be "horrid") on...nothing.

 

Disappointing for you, who is the most obsessed Luke fan on the biggest Star Wars community on the net. You're an outlier, most viewers found the ending very satisfying/tantalising, and felt it justified the decision

 

True this would create great drama and also explaining why Ben did fall as well. It would also create great drama for the whole Skywalker family. If there is Rey Doe having drama with Snoke Meier, there is nothing really interesting there.

clinteastwoodbradfield apart that the rules are not to discuss poster here, why does a cave exist for people who criticize TFA, if I'm the only person criticizing it?

 

I found the Emperor to be more compelling before we learned his backstory.

And "depth" is not the equivalent of "showing and telling everything." "Depth" can also simply be the mere hints at a layered universe, and a deeper history. The OT excelled at that (as did bits of the PT), and I think the ST is on the right track.

 

I'm basing it on the general story direction they seem to be taking. And the new characters introduced. But you have a point in that the film itself might be interesting. I just hated the story of TFA and don't like the direction it seems to be taking. Plus, as I said, I'm very worried our background on Snoke is just going to be equivalent to what we had on Palpatine in the OT. And that would be a horrid decision in my opinion.

Yeah I just didn't care for the OT's depiction of any of the villains. Palpatine was just a generic mustache twirling villain until we got his backstory. I hate the mystery element in terms of characters. Without their backstories, the villains are just boring to me. I want them to show and tell us his backstory. Where he was, who he was, why he chose that moment to emerge. Otherwise he's not a real threat. He's just a pretender to Sidious' throne.

 

I wasn't saying you're the only person criticising, I'm pointing out that saying "look how that turned out" about the end of TFA is something that for the majority of viewers would result in an answer that was very positive indeed. I wasn't being personal, but I was using my knowledge of your posting to inform my reply to you. With respect, if you don't want to be referred to as the person who is totally devoted to Luke, you might want to post about other aspects of Star Wars more

 

I think what we don't know is far more threatening.

 

nope not in this way, I can post about what I want and what interests me. I'm interested in Luke, Rey, Darth Plagueis, I liked Mara Jade, Ben Skywalker and Thrawn. But I got into Star Wars because of Luke, like many up to this point identify Star Wars still with Han Solo. This is simply preference and I don't let anyone tell me what I have to like.

 

Then we have a very serious difference of opinion. I don't find "what we don't know" more threatening at all. I find it boring.

Palpatine was cool because he could fire Force Lightning. He never seemed all that threatening to me in the OT, especially when I saw Vader just pick him up and chuck him down a reactor shaft. It was laughable and made his character a joke. But then seeing him manipulate the galaxy, orchestrate a massive war, dispatch 4 of the order's greatest masters in a lightsaber/force duel, and beat Yoda? Yeah, then when I rewatched RotJ, it made me realize the stakes and how threatening he actually was. Before that though? He was just an old man, just like Yoda was an old hermit. Without their backstories, both characters just seemed really dull to me.

 

Some of the PT contributed to making Palps even more terrifying, and the moment he pulled the hood over his disfigured face for the first time gives me chills, as does his brief appearance in AOTC and the way he says "Lord Tyranus"

But the PT did also give us the gurning during lightsaber fights, the Month Pythonesque "if only... Amidala were here" in AOTC and the bit where Yoda sends him tumbling over a chair...

What backstory giveth, it also taketh away

 

Like what you want. You're misunderstanding me. All I'm saying is that you need to be aware of other opinions too. I get and understand that you wanted more Luke, so,the end didn't work for you. But your post was phrased in a way that implied that your opinion was widely held. Which it isn't.

 

That is effectively the reason for the EU though. Some people are like you, who want a backstory and reason for everything. Some people just want a mustache twirling villain.


I don't personally see, just from a time perspective, that you're going to get a whole lot of story for Snoke. He's going to be the mustache twirling villain who wants to take over the world (or in this case galaxy), because...

 

Yeah I'll be honest, I never understood what was so cool about Han Solo. I just never really liked the whole "Space Cowboy" thing. Just doesn't appeal to me or even appear interesting. Probably the reason I never got into Firefly or Cowboy Bebop honestly.

Yeah I agree with you nightangel, the Force Users are what interest me in Star Wars. The thing that got me into Star Wars was the PT and EU. I understood the stakes and appreciated the struggle of the Alliance more after watching the PT. It didn't matter as much who or what Palpatine or Yoda were before I saw what they could actually do.

The greatest characters in Star Wars for me are Luke and Vader/Anakin, Sidious and Plagueis, Padme and Mara Jade. Those are the characters that I find compelling. The reason I have to watch the ST now is to see Luke show off some incredible Force powers, for Rey to be a Skywalker or another chosen one (not some random girl with a destiny), to find out who and what Snoke is and where he came from, and why Sidious didn't hunt him to extermination. I want to see a Snoke that makes Sidious look like a weak and misguided fool in comparison.

clinteastwoodbradfield See I agree with the things you liked with Sidious but I loved his lightsaber fights. It showed just how terrifying and powerful the Dark Lord of the Sith truly was. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your criticism there?

weezer I shouldn't have to read the EU backstory to understand what's going on with the villains though. That's my whole point. It should be presented in the film's narrative. That would be like having Voldemort just be some guy who keeps attacking Harry in Harry Potter but we never learn the reason behind it. The story is incomplete without it. The PT worked well because it gave us that backstory for Sidious. We don't need every detail on Snoke's rise to power but we need to know why he was able to realize that Ben was special and what his ultimate plan for him is. We need to know what he is beyond "Supreme Leader" otherwise he's just a poor clone of Palpatine.

 

Let's get back on topic which is Plagueis not Luke. And please remember to play nice and discuss the post not the poster. Thanks.

 

"See I agree with the things you liked with Sidious but I loved his lightsaber fights. It showed just how terrifying and powerful the Dark Lord of the Sith truly was. But maybe I'm misunderstanding your criticism there?"

On the page, I'd agree with you. But on screen, McDiarmid was out of his comfort zone swordfighting, and it showed. And was exacerbated by the awkward segues into digital double athletics - I didn't buy it, and it's one of the few Palps scenes where I'm like "uh, this bit is a bit off"

He would have been better served by being too powerful to bother with a lightsaber.

Edit. Back on topic with Plagueis. I think that at this stage, until we know
A: a definitive backstory for Snoke, or
B: get a Darth name for Snoke that isn't Plagueis, or
C: get official confirmation that Snoke has never been a Sith,

then it really would take a completely unambiguous, not at all open to interpretation shut down for this theory to be killed

 

as I said before Darth Plagueis is the most satisfying villain to be faced in this trilogy and it would tie together the OT and the PT in a perfect way.

 

Ultimately, the point is that they need to give a backstory on who and what Snoke is, regardless if he's Plagueis or not. Everybody criticizes Marvel for their character and motivationally lacking villains. That is literally the single biggest critique that I've seen, across the board, directed at that entire film universe. Movie watchers now want these explanations in the movie. They want to know why the villains are planning their attacks, where they came from, and where they are ultimately going. Mustache-twirling just doesn't work anymore.

Plagueis is a rather simple explanation for who Snoke is. They have two films to explain all these things about Snoke while dealing with Finn and Poe subplots and the military aspect of the FO.

 

Yeah, you got Sidious's backstory in the PT. Otherwise you were just left with the Emperor that shot force lighting and fell down a hole that you dislike so much. I don't see how it could be much different for Snoke. You can't get six movies worth of narrative out of two. Kylo is the story that they're inevitably going to follow, undoubtedly it is going to tie with Snoke's story, but unless he lays on the exposition even heavier than Sidious had to, I don't think you're going to hear the full story on him in the next two movies.

 

True and Snoke/Plagueis may not even be the strait ultimate evil villain and more a complex villain with his own agenda. He was called 'Plagueis the Wise' who saved people from dying, this doesn't sound ultimately evil, so there are plenty of possibilities to go.

 

See we got nothing on Sidious in the OT though. He was really only present in one film. We have the opportunity for much more with these last two films and Snoke can have a presence equal to what Sidious had (in terms of exposition) in RotS. I'm hoping they explore the relationship between Ben and Snoke to that degree over the next two films. If he has to lay on the exposition, then I would be thrilled to hear it. That could easily come about as he's finishing Ben's training.

nightangel Even in the old EU Plagueis novel, he never seemed truly "evil" to the degree we got with Sidious. Not even close. The Jedi were to be driven to extinction because they would stand in his way, not because of the pure hatred and revulsion that Sidious felt towards them. Plagueis wanted to impose his will on the Force, to test his own limits.

 

Re: Snoke not having a compelling backstory ... Remember how we were introduced to Palpatine in ESB? One brief, throwaway exchange about him in ANH and a brief mention in the prologue to the ANH novel were all the set-up he got before his brief appearance in ESB, right? And that turned out OK, didn't it?

 

The fact that we didn't get some context for Snoke adds weight to the idea that there's a revelation coming. TFA didn't feature any context from which that character could have emerged. And there will need to be a shorthand explanation.

 

I really don't think it worked at all.

I found him to be pretty boring (though the whole Force Lightning thing was awesome). It wasn't until his story was shown and he was established as an actual threat in the PT that I actually came to love his character. I hate villains that are just "there." It detracts from the story in my opinion.

 

and this seems to be close to Snoke in TFA who also only wants Luke to stay away and not ultimately goes on a mission to destroy him. Only Kylo has his personal mission.

 

In truth, I think they intentionally kept Snoke a blank slate so as not to paint themselves into a corner right out of the gate. They can still go anywhere with Snoke after TFA.

One of these days, long after Episode IX has come and gone, I hope to find out how much of the story was fleshed out when JJ Abrams first came on board TFA and how much left open for the creative teams behind VIII and IX.