PT Plot Holes and Inconsistencies in the Prequel Trilogy

Not necessarily, surely you'd want a ship that can best defend itself, as Obi-Wan's fighter can.

Can you imagine taking this to Geonosis?:

 

A medium sized ship can still defend itself pretty damned well. A hyperspace ring can't defend itself against anything.

& by the way, I do see merit in the hyperspace rings. As I see it, they're not only for the PT era. They'd be just as useful in the OT era. The Empire had a whole fleet of short range fighters without hyperdrives, just like the Jedi use in the PT. The rings would be handy to transport TIE's between Imperial bases, planets or capital ships. Between safe destinations. What you wouldn't see is a high ranking Imperial operative (Vader even) taking one on a dangerous mission to eliminate say a Rebel mercenary. Bcs he'd know the vulnerability of the hyperspace ring would mean he probably won't be able to get back.

 

Darth Downunder I agree that seeing Vader or someone using a ring on a mission would feel strange indeed. But remember, there was no war at all at the time the rings were originally designed, and there hadn't been a full-blown war in a thousand years. In the context of minor peacekeeping operations the rings are good enough to get the Jedi quickly from point A to point B. For what it's worth most of the time in The Clone Wars series the Jedi are flying out of Republic Cruisers, which are of course a much better choice in a war zone.

 

Wookieepedia mentions this:

This was seen as a vulnerability by some, for if the booster ring was destroyed, the starfighter would be stranded. Starfighters used by the Jedi Order were equipped with adaptable long-range communication relays, which allowed the pilot to contact the Jedi Temple for assistance in these instances. Some Jedi, like Anakin Skywalker, modified their ships to contain ultra miniaturized-hyperdrives, eliminating the vulnerability, at a cost to the hyperdrive's performance and range.

 

Stick em' with the pointy end?

 

I know the Hyperspace rings were destroyed once or twice in the old EU Clone Wars. Battle of Kamino.
Not that it mattered since a Venerator Star Destroyer showed up right after that iirc. Or the battle was over and aid could come in.

The hyperspace rings would have fit in real well with the hyperspace buoys of the Old Republic EU set tens thousands of years earlier.

The rings just seem way too primitive and a potential risk IU for the PT era.

I like new things but getting something new just to get something new isn't the best thing imo.
It never made sense to me imo.

 

Lucas was making an evolutionary point.







You can argue the logic and reasoning all you want, but that was what Lucas was going for. And since Obi-wan said that a fighter that small couldn't get all the way out there without a hyperdrive and the Republic becomes the Empire, so there you go.

 

Therefore it's not evolutionary. The PT had fighters with only sub-light drives. The OT had fighters with only sub-light drives. Both the Jedi fighters & the TIE's would find the rings very handy to travel vast distances. To & from relatively safe & secure areas where their rings aren't at any great risk. In-universe if we (or Lucas) really thought about it, I don't believe either the Jedi or the Empire or anyone else with an ounce of sense would send one of these ships & their giant detachable engine alone to the far reaches of space on a hostile mission. Surely that's not an outrageous point of view. Seems quite sensible.

 

I like the hyperspace rings. I think they are just genius because allow to little fast ship (i.e. fighter) to travel in long distances. Universal vehicle, I would like to have one of these.
About the problem that they should be left 'somewhere' in the space: well, is not somewhere. They are close enough to the respective planet; that means they are in orbit; that means that they move, i.e. travel around the planet. Actually for their users is a little bit uncomfortable to "find" their coordinates when they want to use them, because they move but after all, there are computers on the board and they should serve for something. Saying that , I think I answered the question why Jango couldn’t just blow up Obi's ring: he first had to find it and recognize it . I mean, the space is huge. If this ring is left on some passive status, on the radar it would looks like piece of space junk(one of may). And to see it (literally) he must pass very close to it. So, Jango just wasn't lucky enough, that's all.
Same with the size of the astromeh droids: who knows if they are not "flexible": I mean if they cannot reconstruct their forms to fit in smaller spaces? We saw in AOTC how R2D2 'reconstructed" its 'hands' to make it on motors to fly. It was awesome. So, let's accept that they fit in the fighters, is not impossible.

Someone said something about Anakin converting in pile of ash. Wrong. First, we are not flammable as wooden stick. Is not that the human body is fire resistible, but again that doesn't mean automatically flammable. Also, the flames could be relatively easy extinguished even in Anakin position, by rolling on the ground. Because Mustafar is a volcanic planet, not 100% lava planet, it has higher grounds, after all. Well, with all this injuries Anakin should be dead, but as we know he is the chosen one, his abilities are beyond normal (is not sarcastic, is in-universe fact).
But actually, the ground is not the real problem, is the air. They all should be dead of all these poisonous gases that in Mustafar should be in immerse concentration but even the pregnant Padme was physically ok. So, the problem of the air is hugely underestimated in sci fi and fantasy movies and I understand why: it cannot be seen=is not a problem. But actually , if we insist to be realistic (for me this is strange, but anyway) the air should be a problem. Then you must say: ah, but in OT they had in mind the air, as in TESB they were wearing masks in the asteroid (that resulted to be some cosmic slug). Well, is not enough. If this is an asteroid (as they thought it is ) then most surely it has no atmosphere. If it has no atmosphere, the temperature would be close to the temperature in the open cosmic space, that is zero degree according to Kelvin scale (i.e. -273 Celsius and − 459 Fahrenheit) so they should freeze to death in. .I don't know, 30 seconds? Not to mention the gravity problem...
But anyway, extrapolating literal phenomena of the real world in a fantasy movie is risky. As Force Smuggler said: in the end we wouldn't like anything (not particularly in SW but in general).

 

I try not to sweat the little details and whatnot.
I have a pretty good suspension of belief but am not able to suspend every little thing I see, read or hear about.
That's why I try to bring it up here to see what other people say about the issue and adjust my view accordingly if I like the explanation.

 

... Wrong thread...

 

Temperature isn't a huge issue (Space Is Cold is a common myth in space fiction) - if Hoth is in the Mars-type zone and the Asteroid Belt is fairly close by) - pressure is. While people don't actually explode when exposed to hard vacuum, they would get decompression injuries even while wearing a mask - and embolisms.

If the Falcon was projecting a force-field around it, holding in atmosphere dense enough for it not to be an issue - then they wouldn't need to be wearing masks in the first place. And we know the slug's mouth is wide open - since they flew in and out.

 

Yes, you are right, if the asteroid is “orbital“, of course. But don‘t get me wrong: I‘m not insisting that every little detail of this kind should be elaborated, for me it works if it looks logical in this universe, as Cryogenic mentioned. And this is a special universe where a green little thing with the size of a big Teddy bear can elevate a ship with a size, well of a small airplane.

 

The Empire has abandoned the hyperspace rings in favor of just having TIE's aboard Star Destroyers and in orbit around the Death Star. But as we saw in the PT, the Jedi were still using the hyperspace rings even in the heat of battle. But more and more, they were coming in from Republic Cruisers. We see Obi-wan and Anakin use hyperspace rings in ROTS, because they're going by themselves to another world regardless of hostile situations. Yes, the rings could be destroyed. Fortunately, Jedi have long range transmitters to call for back-up. In Obi-wan's case, he found another ship that he could use.

Lucas's evolution was more about stylistic appeal, over anything else. He was showing us the beginning of the Empire. Hence the Jedi Fighters in AOTC being triangular and the Republic Cruisers looking like Star Destroyers.

 

Source?

I find that very unlikely. What if a TIE pilot or other Imperial personnel want to travel from one starbase to another in a different system? Or from one Imperial planet to another? They need to get one of the far more rare Imperial shuttles? Or bother a Star Destroyer to take them all the way there? The rings would seem ideal for this purpose.

That can be easily damaged in a hostile situation. As Obi-Wan found in AotC. Also there's no proof that the rings are evolutionary at all. Like I said, the PT had small fighters with no hyperdrive. So did the OT. We can conclude that fighters that small can't take a hyperdrive. The rings would be useful in both time frames to get those small fighters between safe & secure positions. Or at least to & from non-hostile environments. Far too dangerous to take them on a hostile mission alone.

 

The source is Episodes IV-VII and "Rebels". The TIE Fighters that attack the Falcon when it takes off are the same ones that are flying around the Death Star. The ones that engage Red and Gold Squadrons are from the DS. The ones that pursue the Falcon are from the Executor and the other Star Destroyers that come to Hoth. The ones at Endor are the ones that were in orbit around the Death Star II and later are seen coming from the Imperial fleet. There is no ring seen inside the Star Destroyer when Finn and Poe escape. Nor do they talk about using the hyperdrive to escape Jakku. The TIEs that attack Maz's place come from the Star Destroyer. The ones that engage Black Squadron are from Starkiller Base. In the cartoon, they either come from Lothal or from the Star Destroyers. They never once go into hyperspace with a ring.

You're misunderstanding me. I'm not talking about the rings being evolutionary. I'm talking about the Jedi Fighters evolving into TIE Fighters. Just like the ARC-170's evolving into the X-Wings. Both lines of ships are from the same manufacturer that was established as making those other ships. Sinear made the former, Incom made the latter. The former followed the earlier design which negated the use of a built-in hyperdrive, the latter had one like its predecessor.

Any and all ships can be damaged based on the plot. TESB required the Millennium Falcon's hyperdrive to be constantly broken down, in order for the Empire to chase it like they do. AOTC required Obi-wan's long range comlink to be damaged so that he had to call Anakin in order to relay his report to Coruscant. The ship that Finn and Rey were running to is blown up, requiring them to take the Falcon anyway.

 

I'm going to have to wheel out one of my favorite lines again. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. Just bcs we don't see hyperspace rings in the OT or Rebels doesn't mean they don't exist. It doesn't mean they aren't used for some purposes. The Empire has an entire fleet of TIE fighters & other TIE variants, all without hyperdrives. Of course they're often transported around on capital ships. Just as Jedi fighters were at times. However there would also be instances when some fighters or a fighter needs to travel between Imperial starbases or installations. Rather than calling up a SD for a ride, a hyperspace ring would be perfect in that situation. It's a no brainer that they'd be useful at times. Exactly as they were in the PT era.

How am I misunderstanding you? The Jedi fighters & the TIE's both are unable to travel interstellar distances on their own. They both need a lift in a capital ship or need to use a hyperspace ring. Clearly there would be situations where one or the other of those methods would be preferable. If technology had evolved in the OT era where all fighters no matter how small had hyperdrives then the rings would be obsolete. That's not the case. We see the same situation still in the OT. Very small fighters like TIE's still don't have hyperdrives. Therefore the rings would be just as useful.

Correct but in-universe you try to minimize the risks as much as possible. Of course anything could happen. You could get killed yourself & not even need a ship to get home. Going alone to an unknown part of the galaxy on a hostile mission & leaving your only means of getting home floating out there like target practice is a reckless & extreme risk. One that makes even less sense given you need a bigger ship to bring back your target criminal. Saying that anything could happen so what does it matter is like a soldier saying "why bother wearing this protective body armor, I could get shot in the head". The answer is you wear it to reduce your risk.

 

I didn't say that the rings were discontinued. Just that the Empire abandoned using them. In the era of the Empire and probably the First Order, Imperials relied more on personal shuttles than TIE fighters to go somewhere without needing to use a capital ship. Vader is the only one who had a hyperdrive in his TIE Advance. At least, according to the old EU. I think even the official publication materials state that the Empire abandoned hyperspace rings once the TIE line of fighters began rolling out.

Except that the Empire and the First Order chooses not to employ hyperdrives in their fighters, compared to the Alliance. Just because it is preferable doesn't mean that either government is interested in using them. Especially if the Empire doesn't want desertion to take place.

And yet, Jango didn't even bother to go and destroy it. Instead, he opts to make the jump to Geonosis as soon as he got clear of the planet. Hell, he doesn't even go around and destroy the Jedi Fighter as it sitting there on the landing pad. He wouldn't even need to worry about a hyperspace ring. Kinda makes him the dumbass in this situation. Instead, he assumes that Obi-wan is dead and takes off.

 

& I'm saying that's an assumption based simply on the fact that we haven't seen them. Don't make me roll out that evidence quote again

Which makes no sense. "We're hereby abandoning hyperspace rings...now that we have a new line of fighters still without hyperdrives" .
& yes I know the Empire used shuttles & other craft. The Republic did too, like at the start of TPM. There would still be times where the rings would be handy for TIE's, just as they were for small fighters in the PT era.

Yes alot of scenarios in AotC (& TPM) make fools out of quite a few characters. In this case though I guess Jango didn't think of a homing beacon being placed on his ship. That's not unreasonable. Still doesn't change the fact that he could've easily fired a missile at the hyperspace ring as he left the planet. All Obi-Wan could do is hope that he didn't. He was completely at the mercy of whether Jango thought to do it. Jango didn't bcs the story required Obi-Wan to still have a ship.

 

Empire, yes. First Order's Special Forces TIE (the ones with red stripes and two seats) come with a hyperdrive though. Possibly they trust their Special Forces more than their ordinary pilots - and having a hyperdrive makes deployment for a covert operation easier.

 

how would he find it ? and how long would that take ? plus - what's the point ? the Kaminoans have ships .

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I just don't explain the plot of AOTC to people. I just say it's the one where SLJ kicks butt.

 

Obi-Wan parked his fighter on a Kamino platform for all to see. A fighter that would be well known to the Jedi's enemies to require a hyperspace ring. Jango could've easily known about it & taken it out while leaving the planet.
Who cares if the Kaminoans have ships? They're not after Jango. You're assuming they'd give Obi-Wan a ship. How long would all of that take to arrange, even if they'd give him one? Either way, Jango may as well fire one missile on his way out & take out that ring. That's the absurdity of using one on this type of hostile solo mission.

 

Space is big - Jango may have simply, when leaving, not been in a position to take out the ring, because it was on the other side of the planet, the missiles have a limited range, or a combination of the above.

That said, Jango finds out about the ship before even meeting Obi-Wan, in the novel:



"Wow!" Boba Fett exclaimed, rushing across the landing pad to view the sleek starfighter up close.
"Beautiful ship," Jango agreed, strolling to catch up to his son, studying the craft with every stride. He noted the markings and design, the extra firepower, and, particularly, the astromech droid hardwired into the left wing, tootling happily.
"This is a Delta-Seven," the excited Boba announced, pointing out the rear-cockpit position. Jango nodded, glad that his son had been taking his lessons seriously. These were new ships- so new that they hadn't yet been fitted with hyperdrive engines, Jango realized, and he inadvertently glanced up at the cloudy sky, wondering if parent ships were up there. He shook the thought away, turning back to Boba.
"And what of the droid?" he asked. "Can you identify the unit?" Boba climbed up the side of the fighter and studied the markings for a moment, then turned back to his father, finger to pursed lips, an intense expression on his face. "It's an Arfour-Pea," he said. "And is that a common droid for this type of starfighter?"
"No," Boba answered without hesitation. "A Delta-Seven pilot would usually use an Arthree-Dee. It's better at keeping the guns targeted, and the fighter is so maneuverable that handling the laser cannons is tricky. I read that some pilots wind up shooting their own nose cones off in this fighter! They do a snap-roll, coming out over and around, but they haven't compensated the manual swivel..." As he spoke, he moved his arms over each other and about, tangling them up in front of him.
Jango was hardly listening to the details, though he was thrilled that Boba had taken to his lessons with such energy. "Suppose the pilot didn't need the extra gunnery skills of an Arthree-Dee?" he asked.
Boba looked at him curiously, as if he didn't understand.
"Would the Arfour-Pea then be a better choice?"
"Yes," came the halting response.
"And what pilot wouldn't need the extra droid gunnery skills?" Boba stared blankly, but then a smile spread on his face. "You!" he blurted, seeming quite pleased with himself.
Jango took the compliment with an appreciative smile - and it was true enough. Jango could wheel any fighter, and if he ever had the opportunity to fly in a Delta-7, he'd likely choose an R4-P over the R3-D. But that wasn't what he had in mind right now, for he knew of one other type of pilot, pilots with heightened senses, who would similarly choose the better nav, but less weapon-oriented droid.

 

so he's gonna fly round and round the planet looking for this thing ?, what the. . .? why bother ? as far as Jango's concerned as soon as he hits hyperspace he's rid of that jedi , but no you'd have him flying around searching the orbital space of an entire planet . good thinking DD !

"on his way out " LOL! it's not outside the front door you know , it's in space !

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