PT What do people mean when they say the Prequels lack 'heart and soul'?

Damned masses. Too many simpletons among them.

Fools!

 

Now this is a more fair and reasonable statement to make. That it is their subjective opinion, which sometimes gets lost on people on both sides of the debate. The problem arises when somebody tries to state a subjective opinion as some sort of fact.

 

Correct. I personally love Anakin, Obi-Wan and Padme in the same way that I do Luke, Han and Leia and Rey, Finn and Poe, but I understand why many others don't.

 

Okay, I've read through all the various arguments and counter-arguments in this thread. I've gone through references to Freud, the definition of melancholy and both praise and damnation of Red Letter Media. And I'm willing to let all these opinions slide; I'm not going to get all hot and bothered. But I must respond to one unmistakable bit of slander.

It's this, in regard to "On Her Majesty's Secret Service":

In fact, among Bond fans, OHMSS is considered one of the top five Bond movies, if not one of the top three. And it's certainly the most underrated. It features a more vulnerable and human Bond, more than a decade before such an approach would be attempted in the Dalton films. It has a great musical score, top-notch action, a closer-than-usual adaptation of the Fleming book, a great villain and the absolute best Bond heroine. Plus an ending that is still powerfully emotional. Before the Daniel Craig "Casino Royale", the prevailing opinions re: OHMSS were split between "It would've been the best if Connery had been in it" and "It already is the best". And now, with the advent of home video, it's starting to get the respect it deserves. And Felix Leiter was mauled in "License to Kill", not "The Living Daylights".

Oh, and I thought the PT had plenty of heart and soul. Don't understand those who say it didn't.

 

You are a true believer.
Blessings of the state, blessings of the masses.
Thou art a subject of the divine,
Created in the image of man,
By the masses, for the masses.

 

Well in ANH she is coming from the same world they do not the one that Luke or Han do.

For one or two scenes which as she said was her trying to match PC's intonation or whatever.

The great thing is how Lucas then intentionally used that for Queen Amidala while Padme was "normal" (or about as much as SW gets!)

See ROTJ Luke, Obi-Wan and Yoda in the OT. They have a more formal presentation about them with a distance when necessary.

I would say for more than a bit with Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan but they are still Jedi. It's not like were are dealing with the average Jedi but the Council and Yoda and Mace in particular.

Which is the point being made. It is fairly minor. Obviously they do "care" but not in the way they some people wanted for some reason.

Well they did only send the two of them.

Not a Jedi then.

For the simplest of reasons. That is the way Lucas wanted it.If he had wanted it done another way then he would have done it. What is also true is that in the OT there is a very narrow focus on the trio as friends and the rest of the Alliance are strictly background.

Not for Anakin, Padme and Obi-Wan. In the PT what we get is a larger scope that the OT didn't do with more characters in more positions.

Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Was there some great despair on Leia and Han's part about Obi-Wan? Hardly.

To me in AOTC they loved each other like brothers but that doesn't mean that as master and apprentice they got on together every second. They could talk openly with each other on most everything. I find their entire time together until Anakin departs with Padme a great display of guys who are clearly friends who are all about protecting each other. That doesn't mean though that Anakin still isn't learning.

Kind of odd as of course they wouldn't. If Qui-Gon had lived Anakin would be with him and Obi-Wan would be off with some other apprentice and they would barely know each other. The point made in TPM is that he took Anakin on because of Qui-Gon. Then as time went by he believed in Anakin himself.

Because Lucas didn't want to do that in AOTC. One of the points was that Sidious was also teaching Anakin at the same time. He was the "Obi-Wan" to Anakin's "Luke". There is a difference in actually teaching someone for their betterment and what Sidious did with Anakin telling him everything he does is great all the time. The kind of friendship that some people wanted to see could only fully develop after Anakin was a Jedi Knight himself not a student (who was young Darth Vader).

/quote]
I think that Lucas realized that he had gone too far in creating conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan and tried to compensate. First, the elevator scene was part of the pickups and was added because Lucas realized there were not many scenes that showed a nicer side to their relationship. Second, in RotS he made Anakin more likeable and less grating. I also think that Lucas realized that he made Anakin too dark in AotC and so pulled back a little.[/quote]

I don't think so. The far safer assumption is that Lucas knows exactly what he is doing in his movies and does exactly that pretty much all the time. He spends years thinking about them and making them. For some reason some people want to believe that Lucas didn't do the "right thing" (meaning what they would have liked) and that when he doesn't then something was done "wrong".

In reshoots all sorts of small scenes are added or adjusted. That is simply part of the process. Anakin simply is not the hero version that is mentioned in ANH (neither does Obi-Wan mention that bit about him becoming Vader). That Anakin happens after AOTC and is seen in ROTS.

Again that is rather the point.

Which as I said before is just like Vader in the OT. He's very different in each movie. So now he is consistent across all 6 movies in being different. How much fan reaction actually meant to Lucas I don't know. The only one we really know is Vader in ANH was a Bond thug and then Lucas became fascinated with him once he was so popular and merged him with Anakin.

If Lucas reacted to fans THAT much then he would have given them a ROTS style in AOTC and have armored Vader early in ROTS. As he said many times he could have done the easy thing and do as TFA did "something for the fans" which he didn't.

We had never seen a master/apprentice relationship before so there was nothing typical about it. The bond between them is quite evident.

Which is unfortunate for you. Anakin is in love with Padme. It's not about "hots" This is all gone over in the movie. If it was just about "hots" then it's totally different. They are a pair made for each other because she knows as little about one to one relationships as he does. It's odd that some people find it "creepy" yet Han's pursuit of Leia is all OK. That is the actual creepy stalker story because he actually knows her and has been hanging around her for years pressing himself on her despite her objections. Anakin makes his pleas and moves but when Padme says to back off he does and it's over. Until she says so.

They do though but obviously not the proportions that you would like.

Again that is unfortunate for you.

I really can't relate as the tragedy of the PT is easily the most powerful thing I have ever seen on film. It totally speaks to me over and over again. If anything over the years it's reinforced and has become even stronger than it was initially. This kind of drama doesn't really happen in fantasy film because it's usually about the good guys winning. Well we saw the good guys win already in the second half of the story. This is about the losing.

The PT characters to me are simply far richer, fuller realized characters. Both the good and evil.

 

Obi-Wan is also my favorite character in the entire saga, thanks to the prequels (and also The Clone Wars series). I could identify myself with him.

 

Just want to commend you on an awesome post!

I want to build off one aspect of your take here, and that's the nostalgia angle. You are correct, people wanted duplication, or nostalgia. So now, some people, equate nostalgia to heart and soul...

We see what nostalgia does for a movie... to the tune of 2 billion dollars.

How important nostalgia has become to society the last few years has been becoming more and more noticeable. Not sure how many people here watch South Park, I know it's a bit on the low-brow side of humor, however, it parodies on social, racial, economic, etc etc issues is very funny. South park recently started it's 20th season, and one of the things it has decided to do is parody societies need for nostalgia, and how it's possibly unhealthy.

In the show, the citizens have discovered a new fruit called "Member Berries". These berries, upon being consumed, make the person drunk with nostalgia, as the berries themselves reminisce about things of the past. "Member Stormtroopers", "Member Chewbacca", "Member Tatooine", "Member the Trash Compactor", "Member Star Destroyers" etc etc etc..

However, what the show starts to get across is that when people live in nostalgia, it prevents any real movement forward... First we see how the U.S. Government turns to JJ Abrams to solve an important Social issue, because he saved Star Wars, and the government wants Abrams' "Member Berries" in order to make something new that reminds us of the old. Basically nostalgia has invaded even decision making in the policital system which lifts Abrams up to almost like a Pope like person. Than even further, one citizen has his "Member Berries" start to try and turn him nostalgic towards the good ole days of when there was less Mexicans and when marriage was between and a man and a woman..

I put together a video of the relevant scenes, be warned though... The last 20 seconds have vulgar language, however I thought it was important to include so that the artists context could seen as a whole.



It's a great take on how when people want to live in the past, there are dangers of not moving forward...

So I agree, that it seems some peoples need to want nostalgia, or characters like Luke, Han, and Leia, etc etc have seemed to confuse nostalgia with "Heart and Soul"

 

Obi-Wan is also from that world and he doesn't have this weird, stilted way of talking.

And it was a bad acting choice either on her part or Lucas. It made her sound unnatural and didn't work that well.

Ehhh, no. It was a bad acting choice in ANH and it was a bad acting choice in TPM. At least to me.
It didn't make the queen work better, it just made her sound weird and stilted and awkward.
Now if the goal was to make people think the queen is a robot, then it works. Otherwise not so much.

Obi-Wan in ANH showed considerable warmth and personal charm. He was not an uncaring pillar of ice. And he didn't scold Luke for his feelings/insight in RotJ, he said that they did him credit but warned him that the emperor could use them.
And Yoda never told Luke to be happy if his friends died. He again just warned Luke that he could save them but at a price.

I didn't get much if any sense that they cared at all.
When questioning Anakin in TPM, the council is rather cold and uncaring. Anakin even says that he is feeling cold. I think he sensed their coldness. They are dealing with a scared nine year old kid that misses his mother and they show little to no understanding of that.

Which is why I like the Qui-Gon/Shmi goodbye scene.
He realized that Anakin would feel better if his mother was free as well and he seemed a bit sad that he couldn't free her at this time. And he asked if she would be all right. In short, he cared.
And I think that had Qui-Gon not died, he would have done something to free her.
The rest of the Jedi, not so much.
Which is shown by them letting her rot as a slave without a care in the world. And ignoring how it obviously bothered Anakin.

Yoda basically says that if your best friends dies, be happy about it and then forget that he/she ever existed.
I can sort of see what he was trying to say but they way he said it was bad.

And?
M is a character that is reserved and distant and one that has to make harsh choices. But she isn't shown to be an uncaring robot. She does have feelings, she can send Bond off to die if she needs to but she won't do so on a whim and she wants him to come back alive.
In all, it shows that reserved characters or head of organizations don't have to be played as cold and unemotional. They can have feelings.

You conflate two different arguments. You argued that the PT Jedi HAD to be a certain way due to the story or setting. But now you are falling back on just "Lucas wanted it that way".
So if Lucas wanted the Jedi done in a different way, being warmer, more caring, more full of emotions etc. That would now be how it HAD to be done?
Lucas can choose what he wants. But don't pretend that his choice is anything but that, his choice.

As I've said, Anakin and Obi-Wan in TPM don't really know each other. They have met but I doubt there is much in the way of caring. In AoTc they seemed to despise each other. The only film that showed any hint of them caring was Rot, which is too little, too late.

Did Obi-Wan and Padme have much interaction in TPM?
And they didn't have all that much time together in AotC either.
And in RotS, two, three scenes is that it?

And as I've said above, I don't see much if anything of that. I saw two guys who don't want to be together and would never be together if they hadn't been forced to.

Again falling back on "Lucas did it this way".
Lucas is capable of having them act as friends but by holding that back and instead having them act as people that can't stand each other, it weakened the drama. At least to me.
I disliked Anakin a lot in AotC, which I doubt is what Lucas wanted.
It made his mothers death much less tragic. The only tragedy in it was me caring about her, not him.

Establish, build and show the friendship and then begin to break it apart.
Don't start them being almost enemies.

And your argument that friendship can't be shown until after Anakin becomes a knight.
I say, nonsense.
Harry Potter cared for and liked Dumbeldore and he liked Lupin. He was capable of friendship even when they were his teachers.

You could do the story like this, Anakin and Obi-Wan meets and becomes friends. Then Obi-Wan takes it upon himself to train Anakin, over Yoda's objections.
So he trains Anakin but his friendship with Anakin makes him less strict than he should have been. He overlooks warning signs because he is friends with Anakin. And this plays a part in Anakin's fall.

Given all the things that Lucas changed at the last minute or things he clearly didn't plan out ahead, I don't think so.
Qui-Gon's role was originally quite small and Obi-Wans bigger. He didn't plan for Dooku until way into writing AotC. Sifo-Dyas was Sido-Dyas and Lucas planned to have more about this in RotS but didn't. He filmed but cut some scenes with the seeds of the rebellion. Anakin's turn was changed quite late in the game.

He had some ideas yes but he also changes things based on feedback on the films, good or bad.

If the point was to have jerky and inconsistent character arc as opposed to a more natural and sensible one, good job. But I don't think that is what Lucas wanted.

I don't agree. vader in ANH and Vader in ESB follow naturally from the other. His part is bigger yes but he still has much of the same character and personality. He doesn't take lip from imperial officers and doesn't forgive mistakes.
Vader in RotJ is more broken and more hesitant. Gone is his lust for power and now he seems resigned to his fate. But there is some set up for this in ESB when Vader does not kill Piett when the MF escapes. Vader acts different because Luke didn't do what he thought he would, join him.
He now has things to ponder.
In the PT, Anakin changes wildly from movie to movie, so much so that he seems like a totally different character at times.

Given how much he reduced Jar Jar's role and added fan-favorite Boba Fett and had a darker Anakin in response to "Anakin was too nice" complaints. I think Lucas does listen to reactions.
And by Lucas own words, the only reason he changed the Han/Greedo scene was due to what he had heard from fans. That they though that Han was a cold-blooded killer etc.

Master/apprentice relationships are in many films and the one in TPM follows much the same generic formula.

And I didn't see love, I saw lust. Or perhaps obsession.
Adult Anakin doesn't really know her. They haven't seen or spoken to each other for ten years.
He liked her as a little boy and he hasn't stopped thinking about her for ten years.
A boy that has a crush on his teacher or a classmate and then doesn't see her for then years and yet he has never stopped thinking about her. That isn't quite normal to me.
And Anakin acts creepily around Padme. So much so that she shuts of the cameras that is there for her protection. Why? Because she doesn't like Anakin looking at her.
If a woman risk her life rather than having a guy look at her. I would say that is a bit uncomfortable.

[/QUOTE]

Well good for you.
To me, the at times uneven acting, the flat or wooden line delivery, awkward lines, forced humor and contrived story made it a missed opportunity to me.
I can see the potential there but also be slightly frustrated at the poor execution.

I think that this might be why some keep coming here and talking about what they didn't like or didn't think worked. They saw the potential there but felt that it didn't quite reach it.
If you see a film that is just bad or mediocre in every way, then you might dislike it and then not think about it much.
But if a film has parts that are good and also parts that are really bad but you can see that it might be really good but isn't quite. That can make you come back and talk about it.

@mikeximus
RE: nostalgia

Nostalgia is a double edged sword.
You can get the reaction you talk about, that people only dislike something because it isn't exactly as they remember it.
But you can just as likely get the opposite reaction, that people only like something because it is about something they already like.
If you are a fan of something then it can make you overly critical but it can also make you overly forgiving.

So the argument "Some people only dislike the PT due to nostalgia." can easily be flipped around to "Some people only like the PT due to nostalgia."

But both are rather dismissive arguments and only serve to invalidate opinions.

And suppose that some saw the PT first and OT second and still find the OT better. Nostalgia doesn't explain that. Or they saw the OT first and PT second but over a very short period of time.
Like my cousins kids, they saw the OT first, PT second and now TFA. They like all of them but like the OT and TFA better than the PT.



Bye for now.
Blackboard Monitor

 

I think you nailed that perfectly.

 

About as well as Luke nails Vader in the Dagobah cave...

 

A mercifully short & concise post Cryo. Far more simpleton-friendly.

 

So I opened my ROTS DVD and all I saw the soulless black case staring at me. Made me numb and sad. Then I opened my ROTJ DVD and WOWEE!!!, blood was leaking from it and what do ya know? I saw a beautiful heart inside full of love and masterpiece. Then I opened the Star Trek VII The Force Awakens Into Darkness Beyond and I saw JJ's soul inside. So pure so full of life. It finally made me realize I just need my Chewie teddy bear and my Star Destroyer blanket, and those prequels that haunt my nightmares will go away.

 

Y'know the thing about a prequel dvd.... he's got... lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes.

 

It was terrible. All I need is my 1977-1983 and 2015- SW and I know we will make it through the devastation that ruined my life known as the 2000s.

 

I agree. I also don't buy the argument that this was done as part of the Queen's decoy strategy. A strategy that didn't make alot of sense. We know that Padme's real name is...Padme. So when for her own protection she went into handmaiden mode with a decoy taking her place you'd think they'd give her a different name. Especially since as a handmaiden she looked uncannily like the Queen. But no, they call her "Padme the handmaiden"! Not too bright those Naboo.

 

I've been giving it some thought, and I think there's a lot of soul to be found. Talk of Freudian psychologists, the discussions on the range of emotions, and I realized that Lucas' intent was right there in front of us the whole time. Anakin was destined to fall to the Dark Side because of his hatred of sand.

And you might ask, how could sand be the enemy? Well it's not. Sometimes a cigar is not just a cigar, and the sand represents the desolation of his own mental fortitude. See, Anakin clearly must have had a major Oedipal complex. Very severe. So terrible. The problem is, there was no father figure to kill and supplant so he could claim his mother for himself, because there was no father involved in his conception. The sand was everywhere, it got everywhere... like the Force... and the Force, really, was his father. Even Qui-Gon, who almost became a surrogate father to him, was killed prematurely. So, that hate turned to midichlorians, and midichlorians lead to sand, and sand leads to irritation, and irritation leads to control issues. Padme was his replacement mother, hence his obsession and love for her, and when Obi-Wan tried to turn her against him, telling Padme, "Dude, he wants to replace his mum with you." Well, we all know it went to Mustafar from there. Terrible, deep Greek tragedy storytelling, all because Anakin never got the chance to shag Shmi!

Some moviegoers just aren't into that whole Freudian thing. It made them sick to their stomachs, a bit uncomfortable, perhaps. So they stuck to their OT VHS and DVD copies, because at least wanting to bang your sister isn't as bad as wanting to bang your mom. Not that it stopped Luke from confronting his own father. I mean, Natalie Portman, right?!

 

I think you're onto something here. Maybe the heart & soul of the PT was just too rough & course for some people. They wanted something softer & smoother.

Btw, when Anakin had to bury his mother in sand that must've been the ultimate insult. Then when he's grieving at her grave what does he do? Grabs another handful of sand! It's as if he was stoking his anger even then. Then just as he calms down he goes to rescue Obi-Wan & where does the signal lead him? Another freakin sand planet! Poor guy never stood a chance.

 

Kinda like how Luke's whole journey in the OT was just so he could pick up power converters

 

This is an interesting detail that I think points to a subtle difference between the myth and history-infused world of Star Wars and that of our own mass-media saturated 21st century earth. We take it for granted that almost any piece of information about any public figure is available right at our fingertips. It would be inconceivable that a queen's first name would not be common public knowledge. But in many ways the office of the Naboo queen, with her ceremonial handmaidens and attire and her formalized style of deliberations, evokes something from the past, from antiquity or perhaps medieval Japan, more than it does the modern royal families of Europe. I'm reminded again of Kurosawa's Kagemusha, in which a body double must take the place of his dead ruler to keep the Takeda clan's enemies at bay. Those enemies suspect something, and send spies to find the truth. But because of the very formal and closed-off nature (by modern standards) of both the society and the royal court, it's actually quite difficult for the spies to ascertain much of anything. Much like Queen Amidala, these Japanese warlords are expected to show little emotion or personality in public--even in their war council they are expected to say little to nothing, so that when they do speak it carries tremendous weight. A single phrase of mild disagreement, for example, will be interpreted as a heavy rebuke--and whatever other social and public gatherings these rulers attend are equally as formalized. In such a setting, how could a spy ever hope to gain much insight into the private life of the monarch, even something as trivial as to learn what their friends and confidants call them? They're worlds apart. It's a far cry from our modern interconnected lives.

Now the universe of Star Wars, of course, does have technology. They have holoscreens and live sports events and so forth, the technology of mass media that has contributed to the opening of societies and political institutions and information, generally, in our own world. Yet in many ways the assorted cultures we see in Star Wars have more in common with various historical pre-industrial societies--we see this not just with the queens of Naboo, but also the farmers of Tatooine, who resemble the settlers of the American west, or the Geonosian mob, who resemble the Romans delighting in their bloody games in the amphitheater. It's one of the delightful and unique things about Star Wars, really, the way it combines and compacts all these little bits and pieces of human history from all over, so that we have world war II aerial battles and samurai duels and settlers on a rough frontier all mish-mashed together in a way that somehow, amazingly, feels cohesive. And yet, if you really want to, you can pull at those threads, you can tear the whole thing apart logically. You can say that it doesn't make sense for cultures to function like that when they have the type of mass-media technology that we know has changed our own culture so much in the last couple hundred years. You could argue that all these things couldn't really coexist in the same time. And you would probably be right. But you might as well argue about the logic of, say, using spaceships that have far more in common with mid-twentieth century aircraft than anything that would or could ever be used in space (indeed the very idea of having manually aimed weapons in space combat is insane, given the vast distances involved and the availability of computers). Ultimately what matters is what works on screen, in the movie, as a movie. For myself, I happen to quite like the whole decoy thing generally. Even that little detail about the decoy using Padme's real first name, I like. Perhaps it was done more for convenience than anything else, so as not to confuse the audience, but whatever the reason, I find that, along with the formal style of the queen's pronouncements and her colorful costumes and retinue and all the rest, that it creates a sense of age, of history, of being from another time. That sense is one of the things I enjoy most about TPM.

 

That's absolutely the reason. It's a movie convenience. Obviously they disguise her & use a decoy for her security. They disguise her clothes, her job, clearly they'd also disguise her name. It's not like she uses a fake identity as Queen. She's Queen Amidala. So they're not going to openly call her by her real name when she's supposed to be in disguise. It was so Anakin & the Jedi (& the audience) wouldn't get to know her as "Betty" & then once she outs herself have to get used to a different name.

 

Sure, from a practical point of view that's the main reason I'm sure, but I like the implications it has for the setting of the movie generally, as I said above. I like how The Phantom Menace feels the most "ancient" of all the movies. Besides the stuff with the queen, there's also those primeval water monsters, which seem like they belong to some past mythical age, and the pod race which not so subtly recalls the chariot races of antiquity. The lightsaber duel, too, feels different rhan any of the others--more like a sort of ritualistic fight than an interpersonal conflict like the others are--and Darth Maul himself has the appearance of some primal archetypal image of a demon. Even the galaxy itself comes across as larger and more wild, as the difficulties of traveling safely across it actually play a major role in the plot. All these things together evoke something a bit different than any of the other movies, which makes it feel to me like it's something of a window into the past pf the "old republic".

 

I agree, but we could have all of that and have a thorough decoy/disguise strategy for Padme without overlooking such an obvious detail. Giving her a decoy name along with her decoy persona would not have detracted from those elements you mention.

 

I cater to all tastes.

 

You mean like 'Ben' Kenobi, and Luke Skywalker.

They didn't even try!