Games The 24th Jedi Draft - I will finish What Horax Started (Winner: DarkEagle!)

Minch hadn't voted on Cade/Ulic, making Trump/Quinlan the decider


Thanks for the explanation

 

To be honest after that first round I was sweating bullets.

Awesome team for your rookie season.


~MTDSBWY

 

Numbers sent.
@Mikaboshi

 

To end any suspense: It was likely going to be Cade over Ulic.

 

This is a very important result IMO because in all the drafts I have been apart of, Ulic has been taken in the second round while Cade was a third round pick. Considering that Exar Kun has also fallen down into third round territory, it seems there has been a shift on Tales of the Jedi characters. Which I'll fight for by saying that these two specifically, Kun and Qel-Droma, were condsidered the best of their time. That must say something. Especially to Exar Kun.

We haven't seen anyone with the Force ability to freeze the whole galatic Senate. I mean the Jedi that confronted him, led by the future Grand Master Sunrider, basically walked away out of fear. He colonized a savage species on Yavin, had the ability to harness the Dark Side amulets, and he was chosen by ancient Sith Masters who were the mightiest of their times. Exar Kun is still a quality pick with or without PREP. In all honesty, I love Kun's character and story arcs, I am a fan boy.

Ulic was also considered the best duelist behind Kun of that time. I find his Force powers lacking first round material, but his sabre ability is first round material with the numbers of enemies he whipped. You oldbies all love Vodo-Siosk Baas, you need to give love to the guys that were considered the best of their time. Of course IMO.

Also the prepared Darth Vader versus the prepared Darth Caedus match signals something as well. Is Darth Caedus not a top four pick anymore?

 

In regards to Cade v. Ulic, that was a closer one. Ultimately, being a Skywalker ensures you are picked normally in the first 5-6 rounds. Leia's stock has steadily risen for instance. On the other hand, Anakin Solo and Ben Skywalker seemed to have fallen a bit over time. As more and more characters enter and more feats are known, it makes it harder to judge for sure who wins. Quintan v the TOR trump for instance was mostly coming down to Zallow's lack of feats and Aryn's performance against Malgus over simply more material we had for Quinlan.

But with Vader v Caedus in particular I am not sure why this is a surprise. Vader has always been established as the ultimate bad guy. When he walks onto the scene, everything stops. Every depiction in books, comics, tv and film of Vader have been very careful to show this. He is the one the heroes flee from as some type of invincible foe. In purge he cuts down half a dozen Jedi, he appears almost ghostly on the cover of Splinter of the Mind's Eye. In Rebels, he shows no mercy and easily dispatches Kanan and Ezra. And then there is his most recent appearance...

Contrast that with Caedus who, as menacing as they tried to make him, was pretty darn vulnerable. Your stock instantly goes down when your uncle pins you to a chair. It further goes down when the writers have to create a plot that keeps the most powerful Jedi from confronting him, not because he might lose, but because he would fall to the dark side over his grief. Keeping in mind Luke fought to redeem his own father, whose murder record still far outweighed Caedus and who murdered Luke's mentor and was responsible for the deaths of his aunt, uncle and childhood friend. Who tortured his sister and brother-in-law. You might see how I struggled to buy that this time Luke couldn't handle it. Of course, that was before Kylo Ren. However on that, I feel the way Ren is treated almost mirrors how Caedus acts and how he is perceived in comparison to a peak level Darth Vader.

 

You didn't answer my question though. Is Vader (in all his glory because he is awesome, I agree) now ranked higher than Caedus? I took Vader 10th two drafts ago, Tunes took him thrid in this draft, but that's Tunes, because I think a seasoned vet would have taken Yoda, Caedus, or Mace. Vader went 9th three drafts ago, Caedus went 6th (to me). Anyway, my point is that from what I can tell in past drafts Ceadus is constantly taken higher than Vader. Is this not the case anymore?

 

Vengeance is the word

Killing wife + torturing son > indirectly killing pseudo parents and torturing friends



Regardless, the fight was against Vader (prep) and Vader preps really well- we voted him over Sidious I think. So I'm not really bothered by losing that one.

 

Darth Vader vs. Darth Caedus

No Prep. At all of you. Go.

 

I would argue it should never have been the case period. A prepared Vader is more dangerous than all but four characters in my book: Luke, a prepared Obi-Wan, Yoda and a prepared Sidious. You are talking about the most powerful sith lord alive at his prime evilness with all of his tactical skills and in full control of his power. Not only that, but he's not conflicted at all either. Caedus goes through the entire series in a state of conflict always trying to rationalize every aspect. But by A New Hope- there is no conflict for Vader. It's only once Luke tries to reason with him in Jedi that he starts to feel any real conflict and waivers in his dedication. On paper, Caedus has more unique abilities. However in practice, Vader is far more deadly. You add in the years of being a general on the front lines and the multiple opponents he faced head on and it just doesn't compare in my view. Vader is a force of nature.

That's how the writers reasoned it so Luke wouldn't go after Caedus. But it's the most out of character explanation in the entire series. You are talking about a man who went to confront Vader- after being told by Yoda and Obi-Wan to kill him-and instead redeemed him. And you truly belittle just what it was Vader did to Luke and the rest: He grew up his entire life hearing whispers about his father who lived a noble life and then died. Then Ben tells him Anakin was a great pilot and a jedi knight and he needs to take up his legacy. Then as a result of the empire, Owen and Beru are killed. Then Ben is murdered in front of him after he's rescued a tortured Leia whose planet Vader destroyed. Then he reunites with his childhood friend Biggs whom Vader directly kills and who directly attempts to kill Luke. Then, to get Luke, Vader captures Han and Leia and tortures both to lure him there. He then maims him and shatters his world. And after all of that (and not counting the numerous comics and books in between) Luke still decides to redeem a man that Yoda, Obi-Wan and Leia believed were beyond redemption.

As incorruptible as Obi-Wan is, Luke was always portrayed as pure good. Instead, the entire Skywalker/Solo clan decided "He's beyond hope". Are you kidding? Vader was someone you could save but Caedus was beyond hope? Keeping in mind that they raised Jacen and actually were attached to him- it was just easier to kill him than it was to try and save him. Let's also not forget that Mara went "hunting" for Jacen and essentially set out to murder him. She brought her death upon herself. And as to Ben- that was also partly Mara's fault. So the idea that Luke can't even try to redeem his nephew or reason with him but instead will send his niece on ANOTHER murder mission is beyond ridiculous to me. That plot point has never sat well with me. Hell, look at The Force Awakens: Luke totally exiles himself from eveyone, Leia still says their is good in Kylo and Han dies trying to save him. That is a heck of a lot more believable than what we got in LOTF where they basically sat around plotting how to kill Jacen because he was beyond saving.

So I don't quite accept the > comment in comparison to the overall lore.

 

Mikaboshi Numbers when you can please.

 

Confrence Finals

Numbers 2,7,10

Location: Kachirho, Kashyyyk

Darth Horax Conference Final Match

The Vanguard -Oh yeah? Watch This. vs. Mikaboshi -The X-Emperors

2. Darth Maul trumped Savage Oppress vs. 2. Lord Nyax
7. Exar Kun (PREP) vs. 7. Sora Bulq
10. Darth Plagueis vs. 10. Lumiya (PREP)

Ken Kenobi Conference Final Match

DarkEagle - I heard that DE had an 8-pack, that DE was shredded vs. Skywalker_T-65 -May The Beard Be With You

2. Vaylin TRUMPED w/ Arcann vs. 2. K'Khruk
7. Darth Caedus vs. 7. Rahm Kota
10. Kar Vastor vs. 10. 10. Kyp Durron TRUMPED with Corran Horn

Yodaminch Point Given DarthIntegral

Sorry for the delay guys.

 

2. Darth Maul trumped Savage Oppress vs. 2. Lord Nyax
7. Exar Kun (PREP) vs. 7. Sora Bulq
10. Darth Plagueis vs. 10. Lumiya (PREP)

Ken Kenobi Conference Final Match

DarkEagle - I heard that DE had an 8-pack, that DE was shredded vs. Skywalker_T-65 -May The Beard Be With You

2. Vaylin TRUMPED w/ Arcann vs. 2. K'Khruk - Arguments?
7. Darth Caedus vs. 7. Rahm Kota
10. Kar Vastor vs. 10. 10. Kyp Durron TRUMPED with Corran Horn

 

Great start, but what a waste for Kun!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

I didn't want to forget to come back to this question. Because it's a great question.

I think Prepared Vader beats Prepared Caedus. I also probably think unprepared Vader beats unprepared Caedus. However, in terms of where you should draft them, I think you should take Caedus before Vader.

That might sound contradictory. But it's not.

Vader is a bad match-up for Caedus. But plenty of high-powered folks are bad match-ups for Vader that are not bad matchups for Caedus. I'd put Caedus over Yoda, for instance, but not Vader. I'd put Caedus over Lord Vitiate, but not Vader. The transitive property is not strong here.

Caedus also has several natural connections in the 3-5th and 7-10th rounds that help him have a much more naturally cohesive dark side team. Vader struggles there. You get him as your captain, and then ... put pieces around him. Build natural pairings with the co-chair. It works, but it doesn't work quite as well as it does with Caedus. You get the right second-round pick with Caedus, and you can build a dark side team with cohesion to match almost any light side team. You get the wrong second-round pick with Vader, and even an all-Dark Side team isn't going to have very good cohesion. This, again, elevates him to be drafted higher than Vader, IMO.

 

DarthIntegral

Here we go with Dark Side cohesion again.

Interestingly enough, I agree with you as I had to do both. I built teams with Vader and Caedus as the lead picks.

heels1785 love to have your take heels.

 

OK, I'll toss my hat in (and try not to home-team Caedus ): I think 1v1 just skill/power/talent/Freedon's Nadds, Vader has the advantage. However, with no-prep, I think Caedus barely takes it on the basis of knowing a lot about Vader already (flow-walking) and can use that to tilt things his way (illusions like he did against MJS). Though that's old canon Vader, and NuVader may not be as susceptible to those tactics

Pick-wise, I'll take Caedus before Vader 9 times of 10. I agree with Inty about the non-transitivity; I think Vader has a few more weaknesses, giving Caedus the better win percentage against other first round picks. I'll agree with Heels though: Vader makes the better leader, if you can build a team for him. Which can be hard to do with Vader- there are few cohesion-positive picks for Vader until late rounds and some key cohesion-negatives that force the Vader team into some awkward picks. Example: Vader goes as the 4th DS pick in round 1 while Dooku is commonly the 5th DS pick (1st in round2). Though a Vader-Krayt team sounds promising (and no one's done it yet)...

 

I did Vader/Bane and that got me to finals. Vader was last pick in the first round. Bane was next pick as I avioded the Tyranus/Vader connection.

 

Conference Finals

Numbers 2,7,10

Location: Kachirho, Kashyyyk

Darth Horax Conference Final Match

The Vanguard -Oh yeah? Watch This. vs. Mikaboshi -The X-Emperors

2. Darth Maul trumped Savage Oppress vs. 2. Lord Nyax
7. Exar Kun (PREP) vs. 7. Sora Bulq
10. Darth Plagueis vs. 10. Lumiya (PREP)

Ken Kenobi Conference Final Match

DarkEagle - I heard that DE had an 8-pack, that DE was shredded vs. Skywalker_T-65 -May The Beard Be With You

2. Vaylin TRUMPED w/ Arcann vs. 2. K'Khruk
7. Darth Caedus vs. 7. Rahm Kota
10. Kar Vastor vs. 10. 10. Kyp Durron TRUMPED with Corran Horn

 

Well...that's a great start...

At least two of the most dangerous people on the other team (well, three technically because trump) are out early.

 

Point Given - are you going trump or the Hat? Just need to figure out if I need to even think about it or wait on arguments.

 

Plagueis over a prepared Lumiya? Hmm. Didn't Plagueis almost die from an attack from half a dozen maladian assassins? He did almost die, in fact he had to be saved by his apprentice or he would have died.

Lumiya with prep seems to be far more dangerous than those assassins, at least to me she does, especially since she has multiple high level showings against the most powerful Grand Master in the SW universe, and it's not like Plagueis is known for having amazing skill with a blade and that is something he will need against a lightwhip.

Oh well, if that seems like a good call carry on.

 

Mikaboshi, not gonna lie. I misread that match as Darth Sidious not Darth Plagueis, for some reason. I'd vote Prepped Lumiya, no doubt.