ST Diversity in the Sequel Trilogy (see warning on page 11)

That would be a very strange approach in a hyper-diverse, hyper-advanced fictional universe. A creator would have to go out of their way to portray this massive galactic civilization as exclusively heterosexual. Portraying LGBTQ individuals would be a lot more realistic in-universe, and a lot more appropriate out-of-universe given the diverse fan-base of this series.

This fictional universe has no good excuse to be restrictive in its depiction of sexuality. Plain and simple.

 

I think he was trying to address the labels and whether or not they existed, not "gay people don't exist.".

 

I know. But one wouldn't have to engage in a Earth parallels for LGBTQ "labels" in order to appropriately depict people of that persuasion. Just showing non-hetero relationships and interactions, whether they be hints or full-on character dynamics (like Han/Leia and Anakin/Padme) will do the trick.

 

What it all comes down to is visibility. As has been noted, race and gender are traits that are superficially visible. On the other hand, orientation and gender non conformity are more superficially invisible. This invisibility is made moreso in culture at large, by the threats that gay and non gender conforming people face. The threats make them hide important parts of themselves, which increases invisibility.

This turn of the conversation, where we seem to be discussing whether the "labels" exist, or even apply, to the GFFW is beside the point for some of us.

The point is:to be fully human is to be visible.

By the way, there is a reason that Ellison's novel Invisible Man is generally considered to be one of, if not the greatest book written in English in the 20th century.

In this regard, the introductions of Rey and Finn were absolutely brilliant. The fact that both characters initially appeared in masks is not an accident. That both characters were unmasked as their way of introduction to the audience was a way for JJ to say "hey, here are previously invisible people, I am telling you I am going to unmake their invisibility."

 

LBTG characters seem a lot more tame than characters like Jabba who apparently was into cross-species stuff

 

Inter-species erotica.

 

Do you think JJ was making a statement on race and gender along the lines of Invisible Man, or do you think he was revealing two types of characters that before TFA were mostly background, a storm trooper and a scavenger?

 

To my knowledge I don't think JJ was referencing Invisible Man at all. I only brought it up because it is an incredible book and it is the book which made invisibility a big deal. Ellison is the reason we now think of invisibility as a social concern.

As far as what JJ was doing with the Masks thing, I think that he was doing A LOT of heavy thematic lifting using the masks in TFA. JJ is a guy that gets a thing and rides it for all its worth, and certainly did that with masks in TFA.

But as regards invisibility, think of it this way. Stormtroopers were designed by GL specifically as faceless cannon fodder whose humanity was intentionally rendered invisible, so they could be killed in mass numbers during battles without causing audience distress. Think about that for a minute. The invisibility of a Stormtrooper is a feature, not a bug. They wear masks so that we don't see anything that might cause us to feel empathic toward them. What GL did with stormtroopers, is what we do to all invisible people: they are used without concern for their well being and killed without remorse.

JJ took that feature, and used it to his advantage. With the death of Finn's buddy, instead of just another dead stormtrooper, we get a death that means something to someone, and IT LEAVES A MARK ON FINNS MASK. So right off, JJ is saying something to us about invisible people: "Hey audience, these people may not matter to you, but they matter to somebody." Next, when Finn refuses the order to fire on the villagers, JJ imbues a stormtrooper with agency, something no invisible person and certainly no stormtrooper is ever supposed to possess. With that JJ is telling us: "And guess what? Invisible people also have agency and own their own minds."

And then we get the unmasking. In the moment that Finn removes his helmet JJ is saying: "OK audience, let me show you an invisible person," and shows us a black man.

With Rey, the message is more subtle, I think. I'm not sure I've really got my head wrapped around it. She is different from Finn in that he was shown to be a stormtrooper first, then unmasked. Rey is unmasked almost immediately, then we are shown the life of a scavenger. The message there seems to be "OK audience, here is a woman, powerless and living off scraps. Just sayin',"

With both characters, the unmasking of an invisible person leads to the audience having to confront a non-whitemale main character in Star Wars. There is nothing subtle, or hard to understand about what JJ is saying there.

 

IMO, and it may not be a popular one, I don't think JJ goes that deep. It's not his style. He focuses quite a bit on eye catching visuals and on structuring and positioning characters to effectively draw emotional reaction from his audiences. I don't mean that as an insult, he does a good job at it and he's very skilled, but I don't think he was making commentary on diversity with the masks element. If anything I think he was speaking to the idea that people in general, like Finn, Rey and Kylo can be very different from the masks they wear.

The diversity side of that feels like more of a result of the casting.

 

Eh, whatevs. We tend to see what we expect to see, and not much more.

 

I'm pretty open minded actually, and I've watched, and rewatched plenty of JJ's shows and films (even own some of them) to come my opinion.

I did say the opinion might not be popular, but I wasn't expecting to be condescended to.

 

I think everybody in Star Wars should be gay. You reading this, yes you, you should be gay, your pets should be gay. Kathleen Kennedy should also be gay, the mods, they are lesbians, I'm great big one, the poster above you and below are also homosexual. We live in a beautiful queer world.










I love you all xxxxx

 

Dark Horse Maybe ease back on the trolling.

 

No condescension intended. "We tend to see what we expect to see, and not much more," could just as easily be applicable to my view of JJ's work as it is to yours. And the popularity of an opinion, or lack of popularity, doesn't signal anything about how apt it is.

I agree with you by the way, about JJ and the eye catching visuals and emotional manipulations. I think he is capable of some subtlety, though. Of note, JJ wasn't the only creative working here. The screenplay was co-written by him, Kasdan, and Arndt.

But really, the mask thing is a pretty obvious and on-the-nose thing. Kinda hard for me to see something like that and think that it wasn't intentional. Again, your mileage may vary.

 

I'm absolutely 100% here for this interpretation and indeed plan on linking it to all my Finn fan friends There's something powerful about the way JJ frames these two characters and their importance, especially in terms of invisibility/visibility.

I think there's also something to be said about Kylo, privilege, and his unmasking, which is done to try and prove he's human but is underscored by all the heinous deeds he then does while unmasked, but my brain isn't firing on all cylinders tonight so I'll leave that to others.

 

Wow, that is something that never occurred to me (not hard to guess why).

But by Grabthar's hammer, if ever there was a topic that was more likely than diversity to bring out the worst in people, it is a discussion of privilege.

If a diversity thread is like flying the Falcon through the Asteroid field, a thread devoted to privilege would be like being a Jedi with a troop of Clone Troopers at your back when order 66 came down.

 

Well, we've discussed it here before (though usually in terms of "family" privilege, not ethnic majority privilege). It's partly why I'd like Rey to not be a Skywalker. Kylo as the privileged Skywalker vs. Rey as the downtrodden orphan. Privilege/ entitlement vs. merit.

 

In response to someone sharing their opinion, "Eh, whatevs. We tend to see what we expect to see and not much more" can come off as casting aside the opinion offered and suggesting that they can't see beyond their own biases. Thanks for the clarification.

The reason I don't see the mask motif as intended to speak about diversity is that it makes no commentary about diversity of those unmasked. The motif works despite who is under each mask. I'll explain:

Stormtroopers aren't just fodder and they are anything but invisible. To the audience, who is rooting for the heroes, they can appear that way when they're defeated or they miss at shot at one of our heroes, which the story demands. The Rebels also die all through the series and miss their marks when the plot calls, but few think of them as fodder, because we're rooting for them, we empathize. No, Stormtroopers represent the jackboot of the Empire/First Order. That they all wear the same uniform, follow violent orders without question and appear en masse whenever we're exposed to them is to suggest that they are cold, they cannot be bargained/reasoned with and they are everywhere. They are meant to evoke fear, which is why they are dehumanized in a similar fashion to Vader. Finn removing his helmet reveals that he is more than a tool of the First Order and that he has broken that mold.

Scavengers aren't new to SW. We've seen them from TPM to ANH, scraping to get by, grabbing whatever resources they find and making what they can of them. Slaves, Jawas, Tusken Raiders or the junkers of Nima Outpost, they take what's available to live. Rey's visual demasking says little on it's own. It's when she defends BB-8 from being caught by another scavenger, and then herself declines the reward offered for him that she effectively removes her mask. She is more than a scavenger and has broken that mold.

Sith Lords/Dark Jedi aren't new. Maul, Tyranus, Vader. They're driven by hate and anger, they punish weakness, they seek power by any means. When the sheer numbers of Stormtroopers or the might of armed fleets aren't enough, any one of these three can show an entire galaxy the dark side. When we meet Kylo Ren, he very much recalls that terror. The mask, the voice, all evoke the dark side. When he demasks we see a weakness, a fraility, and a desire for the dark side to make up for his shortcomings. He too is more than the mask he wears, but unlike Finn and Rey, he wants the mask he wears, to cover his weakness, to hide his light, to be something he isn't. Where Vader sacrificed his own life to finally again embrace the light within him and his son, Kylo killed his own father to silence the light. He isn't breaking the mold, he wants to fit the mold. (which still breaks the mold as we know it)

These three leads each have a mask that tells us who they are in the language of SW's historical iconography, and they all directly challenge those masks, breaking convention. It's less the story of people who were previously invisible and more the story of people who aren't what they appear to be, challenging destiny itself. The larger message that I think was being communicated is that the Force can call on anyone.

The mask motif is certainly strengthened by the fact that those that appear to be called, Finn and Rey, happen to be a black man and a woman, but as you've pointed out yourself, JJ wasn't the only creative in the process. That Finn is a black man and Rey a woman is a product of the writing and casting.

 

Yeah, I posted that and was like "hmmmm maybe I should've steered clear of that one." And I think I will, going forward. Not because I don't think it's interesting - I think it's a very deliberate choice on the part of the creative team - but because I don't feel like meeting my demise on this forum just yet. There are other Star Wars hills I'd prefer to die on.

 

I can see why Kylo would seem to be privileged, as a Skywalker, but the problem with that is he is effectively turning his back on that legacy. He doesn't know he's doing that, because he doesn't understand that it's actually a legacy of the power of the light side of the Force. He could have lead the New Jedi Order with his uncle and protected the peace of the New Republic with his mother, that would actually be embracing the privilege he has. He rejected that because he felt that he was robbed of something more: Vader. Luke and Leia kept that darkness from him, and he it craves that power instead of the privilege he might have otherwise had, despite the monster he makes of himself in the process.

 

I'm mostly talking about Kylo's privilege as a white, heterosexual man. Like if we're talking about JJ's unmasking of a woman and a black man and giving them identity and visibility, similarly his decision to have his villain be the guy who'd be playing the hero in a less inventive trilogy speaks volumes about what visual and social messages he's intending to send to the audience.

 

Kylo's not turning his back on the Skywalker legacy at all. Quite the opposite. He's doubling down on it through worshiping the original source of that legacy, Anakin Skywalker/ Darth Vader. And part of that involves rejecting his "weak and foolish" non-Skywalker parent, Han Solo.

 

I don't know that I'd say JJ gave them (as groups) identity and visibility. Black men have existed in previous Star Wars films, and in positions of importance. Lando was the administrator of Cloud City and later a general in the Rebellion. Mace Windu was a leader of the Jedi Order. Women as well, Padme as Queen and later Senator of Naboo, Mon Mothma as the leader of the Rebellion, Leia as Princess and Rebel leader. So in terms of the GFFA, these groups aren't invisible. It's groundbreaking for our society that they are leads of the current trilogy instead of supporting cast, but those were decisions made in scripting and casting. Unmasking them doesn't reveal people who haven't existed before in that universe.

 

Anakin was a Jedi. He rose as Jedi, fell and returned to his Jedi roots before he died. Luke was carrying on that legacy in rebuilding the order before Ben fell. Kylo doesn't know the full story, and because Luke, Leia and Han kept it from him, he doesn't trust them to tell it. I also don't think killing Han was about not being a Skywalker. Han was representative of the light still in him, he killed him to prove he could destroy that light as Snoke had challenged.

 

I didnt say Kylo killed Han because he was not a Skywalker. I'm simply saying that Kylo felt his father was foolish and weak, and rejected him long before he killed him. He worshipped what he felt was the strength of the darkside representative of the Skywalker family. He rejected Luke Skywalker, for sure. But he worships another Skywalker.