ST Kylo Ren and Rey in VIII and IX (See new guidelines on page 228)

That image is for BattleFront 2 where his character is one of the heroes. You can play him and decimate the bad guys with Kylo Powers (various types of telekinesis and swordplay) hence classic heroic pose, chill Disney Prince expression, etc. Whether that's a hint that he'll go from Mad!Kylo to Chill!Kylo in the movie, we don't know, but the context makes sense for the game.

 

i don't know, i remember being well aware of how dangerous the lightsabers are, especially with them chopping down trees at every turn. i thought it was kind of interesting that they were being used occasionally in ways other than cutting things/people in half. it was like this whole new realm of lightsaber combat opened up. j/k. sort of.

 

i think rey losing a hand or gaining a facial scar would be interesting if it resulted in her dong something dark, like she gets into a fight with kylo and becomes angry gets beat up and she is scarred not badly but something like anakin in the rots maybe it would be interesting if her and kylo had the same one or she lost a hand.

 

It doesn't have to be a limb. The point is, they cannot treat her with kid gloves just because they're afraid that there'd be a backlash for maiming the female hero. Given how many male characters, heroes and villains alike, who've suffered noticeable permanent physical damage, including the two previous main protagonists, it does become noticeable for many people if they also constantly avoid doing it with female characters to.

Have Kylo scar/mess up her face. There's your potential "symbolism" right there.

 

yeah, but i don't think they are treating her with kid gloves. that was being used as an explanation to explain away kylo's behavior.

although i also don't think that we're in kid gloves land if no one loses a limb in TLJ.

 

I'm gonna pre-order it so that when I bust into a Rebel base to tear it up, they all drop their guns in terror and say, "Dang, he looks chill with that scar."
And I'm just gonna look at them like, "I know."

 

Yeah the ridiculousness of it all was highlighted by Rey and Kylo hacking mature trees down left and right yet it only leaves a discrete cut on his face. Dude, it should've cut him in half.

 

you missed the memo bro, we are only considering nociception, damage being done, thermal/mechanical/chemical stimuli. kylo clearly assaults rey and hurts her but i'm saying it is more mental and emotional than it is physical as opposed to the other characters. this entire conversation started (and i'm reiterating because it seems like you didn't bother to go back for context) when it was pointed out that kylo is more physically brutal with Poe and Finn than he is with rey, and if you line up their respective scenes it's true. i don't think that's because of the light in him and he's so nice because he clearly hurts her just not a physical way. now what is your opinion?

 

It was a pretty wide, gnarly gash in TFA. And the only other major wound left Finn in a coma. TFA was the first time since ROTJ I really felt like the sabers played like they were actually present and could do damage, rather than superimposed glowstick bats. If I question anything about TLJ so far, it's Rian's choice to virtually erase those wounds almost entirely through snappy space medicine.

 

Movie rules state that nobody can ever be "ugly". That scar would've been too unsightly so they gave him the "cool" scar instead.

 

That reminded me of this guy from another country who is a racketeer. He's very peaceful so when he lost a front tooth, he figured it made him look scary. So he took advantage of it for non-violent extortion. he shows up, smiles and gets the money without having to make threats verbal or otherwise.

 

So, I've been thinking about how this dynamic might play out and for a precedent in other films. My criteria is pretty broad: a female protagonist developing a strange and not entirely antagonistic connection with a male antagonist she perceives to be a monster. Simple BatB recipe.

I came up with three films from three different genres. Here they are, with shots from the scene where the heroine has descended into the monster's layer early on in their respective films..

1. Silence of the Lambs and Hannibal (Clarice Starling and Hannibal Lecter)



This is a crime drama/ thriller based on a series of books by the same name. In Silence of the Lambs Clarice Starling is a FBI agent-in-training and Hannibal Lecter is a cannibalistic serial killer and a psychiatrist. Hannibal becomes a fiendish guide for Clarice, who manages to catch another serial killer and save a young woman with his help. A strange sort of respect develops between these two and after Hannibal manages to escape he calls Clarice and reassures her that he won't be coming after her. In the film Hannibal Clarice Starling has become disillusioned with the FBI after the wrongs they have done her. She spends the film trying to get to Hannibal Lecter before one of Hannibal's previous victims can exact their revenge. She ends up saving him in the nick of time, followed shortly by him saving her. She wakes up in his riverside home. He feeds the man who has ruined Clarice's career his own brain. She tries to handcuff him to herself as the police are hot on their heels. He cuts off his own wrist instead of hers in order to escape (after a kiss). Hannibal gets away again. Interestingly, in the novel Clarice ends up running away with Hannibal and the book ends with them dancing on a balcony. Their connection, at its heart, is a clash of two very similar minds on opposite sides of the playing field.

2. V for Vedetta (Evey and V)



In this case the monster isn't an antagonist, but a anti-hero the heroine spends most of the movie trying to escape from. V for Vendetta is a political thriller/ action movie. Evey, through bad luck and an impulsive decision, ends up an enemy of the corrupt powers that be and is forced to hide in V's (a terrorist determined to bring down the corrupt government) hideout in London's abandoned subways. And oh boy, for those of you questioning the interrogation scene, V straight up puts Evey through weeks of torture (with the best of intentions of course ). V's master plan succeeds, but not before he falls in love with Evey and puts the final decision in her hands (almost unbelievably she manages to fall in love with him too. Kisses his mask). V dies at the end. Evey most likely plays an important role in the rebuilding process. Their connection serves a dual purpose. An ideological one as well as serving as a way to humanize V.

3. The Phantom of the Opera. (Christine and Erik/ The Phantom)



This story has been discussed before, so I won't go into detail about this one. It's a musical loosely based on a novel. Interestingly, the phantom is much, much prettier than he is in the book, and with it their connection became much more overtly romantic (on the phantom's side for the most part) in nature. They have some mysterious, transcendent connection going on through music. The phantom kidnaps her a couple of times. Songs are sung. A chandelier falls. The phantom threatens the love interest. A confused Christine kisses him a couple of times and she leaves with Raoul after the Phantom has a change of heart.

A few other notes

All three these antagonists are well known for their masks.

Apologies that all three of these examples a romantic, but platonic versions of this dynamic are a bit rare in film. I tried to explain the nature of their connections in other terms, as romance is only one aspect of it. And there could still be plenty of other things to discuss (if anyone cares to).

All three of these relationships end on a bittersweet note, two with the antagonist on the run and with one of them deceased.

Two of these films only had one movie to develop the protagonist/antagonist relationship. Clarice/ Hannibal had two, with a massive time gap between the making of the films.

The target audience for these films are very different from TFA's.

To bring this back to Star Wars, Rey in what could pass as Kylo's lair:

 

It's a highly popular trope that will never go out of fashion, hence why it appears in various incarnations across various genres. Of course, family movies such as SW and BatB, deal with it differently than adult-oriented V for Vendetta, SOTL and POTO. But it just shows that the trope itself is a big draw across generations and demographics. It appears in stories for children




as well as the adults (like from your examples).

 

Going to try to figure Rian's decision out by breaking the Fourth wall. It has nothing to do being ugly and everything to do about minimizing distraction.

In TFA that scar was enormous, as in a Holy Chiz, Rey just carved his face in half dramatic. It served its point. It was huge evidence that Rey just handed Kylo his ass on a platter. But was anyone at that point actually looking at Driver's acting, or were you like me, just staring at that enormous gash?

It important to remember that directors love Adam Driver because he has this innate gift for acting with subtlety and nuance. Rian had to decide if he wanted viewers to be drawn in by Driver's nuanced acting style or be overwhelmed and distracted by the ginormous scar glued to his face.it may have been the case that the scar could become the focal point and not the actual acting.

We all know what happened on Starkiller. We know she carved him in half. So instead of letting the prosthetic makeup take energy stage, Rian chose character development and the actors' talents be the focal point. It would be different if the scar was erased. But it's still there, only it's not going to detract from the talent Rian wants to highlight.

 

Not to mention that the point isn't a disfigurement but that's a visible mark that reminds Kylo of killing his father (cause Han touched his face there) and Rey of flirting with the Dark Side and coming close to the edge. You really don't need something distractingly grotesque cause the character never used his good looks anyway, being masked most of the time. So there wouldn't be a point. If he was like Poe, whose use of his good looks is one of keys to his success in life, than yes, some grotesque deformation would have an impact on the character arc. But this is really a symbolical scar that binds Rey and Kylo even more.

Finally, it would have gone against in-Universe medical wonders.

 

hana solo

Indeed

Hmmm, I guess I might have been going for examples where the relationship between the protagonist and antagonist isn't the focus of the movie (with PotO being the exception). And where the antagonist is guilty of more than just denying an old woman shelter for the night.

Here's one for children penned by George Lucas himself



Strange Magic was a flop at the box office though.

 

If i wanted to see BatB, I'd watch BatB. And I have. I just don't want that crap in my SW movie.

Matt Martin seemed confused by that comparison when asked. If that's what they were going for, you'd assume he'd know. Although he understood why people would make comparisons. And I do too. But is that meant to be a parallel with a romantic outcome? I doubt it.

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The sequel to Phantom of the Opera, Love Never Dies, was a total bomb. I can't believe they are doing a North American tour this year when they couldn't find an audience and had to deeply discount tickets for its previous runs.

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Nope, it doesn't need to parallel a romantic outcome. I've come across platonic versions in other media. I have this niggling idea that I'm forgetting about a platonic one in film, but it just won't come back to me.

I kind of tend to forget Love Never Dies exists. The Phantom fandom despises it in general.

 

Lomesa

I think there are some superficial/surface similarities in TFA to those stories, but that's not how I personally interpreted Kylo and Rey's dynamic. I don't see Kylo being fixated on Rey as a woman, like the Phantom or the Beast. I think he is fixated on some sort of mission involving the Force which is behind his alliance to Snoke and his breach with Luke. Rey with her connection to the Force is destined to be an integral part of whatever that is (perhaps he has seen in her a vision as she has seen him) and that is his interest in her; he needs her participation or assistance in this quest. Just my take.

 

Oh, certainly. Even those stories each have an distinctly different flavour. They just share the dynamic (and some of its common features). I wouldn't call the similarities superficial. It's like a skeleton. You can have a hundred breeds of cats that look and behave differently, but when you x-ray them their skeleton looks pretty much the same. And yes, even if Kylo was attracted to her, I don't even think he would realize it at this stage. He is interested in her for other reasons at the moment. I agree, the force will very likely play a large role in their connection.

I've just been thinking about how similar dynamics have played out in film in the past. When I do this, I try to identify parts of the skeleton to compare, not the fur colour of the cat. I just posted the examples with a short description of a few events in the film in case anyone else was interested in looking at films with a similar dynamic.

 

That movie just proved once again that GL really REALLY shouldn't be writing romance plots (or at least no by himself). They're really not his thing.

 

Heh, then why "What girl?", no reaction to info that droid is heading south but instant springing to action at the mention that the girl was spotted? Why very obvious elevator eyes check up in the forest? Why carry her personally even though that made him vulnerable and defenseless to any attack considering that battle was raging right around them? Why unmask when she called him "a creature in a mask"? Poe made a joke about his being masked and Kylo didn't bother to unmask for him. Why leaning so close to her while reading her thoughts that we know he could do from a fair distance ("the map...you've seen it") ? Why this face when Rey caught the lightsaber



and not this face



like when Finn held it? Basically, Finn has the saber and Kylo's yelling "It belongs to meeeee!" Then Rey has the saber and Kylo's, like, "Lemme teach you how to use it."

Oh, finally, why was he just standing there in owe watching her connect with the Force?



Dude! WTF?


There's absolutely no doubt that Kylo's interest in Rey is very much because she is a girl. The movie is very unsubtle about that. Yes, she's a exceptionally strong with the Force, but so is his uncle yet uncle took the backseat to the girl as soon as Kylo's heard about the girl (and that was before he knew she had a hidden talent). "Forget the droid. We have all we need." You mean, you have all you need. Snoke totally wanted that droid.

 

-The "what girl" line can be interpreted in multiple ways. For example, in the context of the film, the people that I saw the movie with interpreted it as a more generalistic frustration. "What girl? Who's getting in our way now?" Especially since he'd just gotten down flipping out at them mention of Finn's involvement and the droid getting away again.

-He carries, because it's easier. He was RIGHT NEXT TO HER when he knocked her out. It's easier and quicker to carry an unconscious scavenger girl, than to try and manhandle a conscious and struggling soldier by himself.

-The droid he was looking for, and the girl he was maybe kind of curious about, were in the same place. Of course he went looking for them.

-"The map, you've seen it." He was stating a fact, he didn't know before then that she'd actually seen the map itself. Which also ties into the "forget the droid line." There's no need to go running around in the woods looking for it, they essentially have the map already in Rey's head, and they have her subdued.

-His face at her catching the lightsaber, shock that she could do it and not him.

-Etc.

I just don't think that the film set up these notions nearly as overtly as others seem to.