Saga Did Anakin truly bring Balance to the Force?

The prophecy only says that the chosen one will destroy the Sith and bring balance. It doesn't say that destroying the Sith equates to bringing balance.

 

That's a very good point!

 

I *think* it only mentions bring balance, actually. Isn't it the Jedi who assume it means destroying the Sith?

 

Destroying the Sith and bringing balance to the force are both referred to as the destiny of the chosen one in the prophecy, as far as we know. But it is not stated that destroying the sith will bring balance to the force.

We don't know what the exact words of the prophecy are though. But the language used by the Jedi when referring to it does mean that they are one and the same thing. They may be coincidental. One might be a precondition for the other, but not the only one. Just the most difficult one. Or not.

 

That should have read, "...does not necessarily mean.."

 

I think you mean Lord Sith Harloxzz not me.


What I don't understand or agree with though is saying that George's definition of balance or his vision and explanation of the Chosen One is not canon. He created Star Wars for crying out loud. How can you say the creator's explanation for his terms and concepts is not canon?

This is why I think Anakin should remain the only "Chosen One." Don't convolute the term by making it now "not canon" and creating new Chosen Ones. The Chosen One was an old Jedi prophecy for a Council and its adepts who no longer exist in the GFFA during the ST.

 

"I don't believe the Sith could have returned without us knowing"
"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force"

The fact that those two pieces of dialogue were spoken by the same character in the same scene makes it hard for me to justify the idea that the Prophecy as written or spoken formally referred to the Sith



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Because it isn't. The concept of canon is a tool used to create storytelling in such a way that prevents the audience/reader from being distracted by inconsistency which breaks the natural suspension of disbelief required to be involved in a fictional work. As long as something isn't overt in a fictional work, it isn't canon and is pliable. Whatever is said or demonstrated about the Prophecy, The Chosen One, Balance of the Force, etc. within the canonized movies, literature, games, etc. is canon. Anything the artist personally believes that isn't clear in the work, even if those beliefs guided the original creation, is no longer canon when it is no longer used as a guide to creating more works.

EDIT: Apologies for the double post. I didn't notice this response to mine until I had already posted the other response, and forgot I was posting in the same thread when responding to this one.

 

I've never assumed that the Sith are mentioned by name in the prophecy, but I don't see how Mace's lines in his first scene would prove that they aren't.

 

For one thing, what George says often changes.

Another thing - He talks about the prophecy being fulfilled as if he need ROTJ to define it for him

Mark Hammill - I'd ask George for an explanation and he'd give me one And I'd say. "George! Did you just make this up on the ride over here?!"

 

George has been consistent for a LONG time on Anakin's status as the Chosen One though. I'm 43 years old and have known Anakin as the Chosen One my whole life. If they change it now

So I guess George's explanations for everything can't be used anymore to refute people's interpretations of Jedi philosophy....

 

Anakin's status perhaps. But regarding the fulfillment of the prophecy, he has not been so emphatic, at times.

You assume that Anakin/Vader's work is finished.

Anakin has only been the chosen one for the past 18 years. Star Wars has only been around for forty years. It's not even possible for you to have know Anakin as the chosen one for the whole of your 43 year old life.

 

Yes, sometimes it is helpful to leave Lucas out of the picture, irrespective of canonicity.

Going by the explicit dialogue in the PT:

"You refer to the prophecy of the one who will bring balance to the Force" - Mace makes the explicit reference here to, and places emphasis upon, the balancing act.
"Remember Obi-Wan, if the prophecy is true, your apprentice [Anakin] is the only one that can bring the Force back into balance." - Again the focus on balancing.
"Is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force"- The idea of destroying the Sith is implicated in the balancing act. The dialogue strongly implies "and" to mean "therefore". But there is ambiguity.

You cannot imply the prophecy from ROTJ, as Martoto is perhaps implying. This is a weakness in the PT. We can only imply that Anakin was redeemed. Ben only says explicitly that Luke "cannot escape his destiny". That he must face Vader again, and vanquish the Sith to become a Jedi. However, the question to ask, is, did Yoda/Ben believe that Luke was "their only hope" because he was offspring of the Chosen One, or because he was the only Jedi left to fight on and win? It depends how deep a reading you afford it.

As for the ST - it's proving to be a different chapter of SW entirely, thematically very different perhaps. Set in the SW universe, but no longer the saga story of Anakin Skywalker and his progeny in the stricter sense. We shall see.

 

Years ago you fought alongside my father in the Canon Wars.... or did you? Define "fought alongside.".

 

....or not. Depending on your point of view.

 

...well, that took an unexpected turn.

Just to clear up some loose ends - I'm hoping that Alexrd and Martoto77 can agree, however, that the Jedi were never more than catalysts in the Force falling out of balance. The Sith perpetrated it.

The balance was restored in ROTJ ostensibly because of several reasons, the chief of which was the Sith's destruction, but secondary to that was the reformed nature of the new Jedi, enshrined in Luke. His vision lacked the pitfalls of the old Order.

If we take that idea and run with it - we might be potentially argue that Luke's "New Jedi" were a failure, due to the events leading up to and contained in The Force Awakens. Perhaps we are better to assume that the title relates directly to the awakening of a new, malevolent disturbance in the Force, a new force of evil to throw off the balance once more. If this balance isn't to be restored by the Skywalker legacy, then we must assume there is some other vergence - if the ST decided to run with the per-established themes of destiny/prophecy.

I like the idea that the Force was almost put to sleep by the ROTJ victory over the Dark Side - almost as if the concept of balance had grown irrelevant and sort of atrophied. I also think we can still factor in Lucas' vision - because the prophecy of the Chosen One leaves open the ideas of conditions within the restoring of balance.

 

They don't prove anything but they make it seem unlikely. One would think that if the Prophecy referred to the Sith by name, Mace wouldn't have found it so difficult to initially accept that they returned.

My response to the title of the thread is: until it's explicitly stated within officially canon Star Wars fiction, the question of whether or not Anakin truly brought balance to Force has no canonical answer. Lucas interviews don't count, Wiki write-ups don't count. Nothing counts but official canonical content.

 

Which pitfalls? What reformation? What vision? Luke was trained in the ways of the Jedi, just like his father and his teachers were. Nothing was changed in that regard. The ways of the Jedi, and being a Jedi doesn't change between trilogies.

"I'm a Jedi, like my father before me."

Not "I'm a new kind of Jedi."

What changed was one trilogy showed them in their prime and later almost completely destroyed by the Sith while the other showed them in hiding and recovering from the ashes.

 

As the films showed, mutual lifeforms working together, can overcome the greatest of obstacles. The Naboo and the Gungan governments worked together to free Naboo from the Federation. The Alliance was made up of humans, Wookiees, Ewoks, Sullustans, Mon Calamari, Lasat, Twi'leks and Mandalorians worked together defeat the Empire. The Jedi's downfall was the result of someone working against the system, in this case, Dooku who spread the war across the galaxy and Anakin who betrayed his own.

They were wrong because he was too attached to his mother and would be again to Padme. He was unable to be objective. They did their best to embrace him, but he rejected them in favor of his attachments.

Obi-wan had allowed the attachment to occur when Anakin began to succeed and in turn, it blinded him to how dangerous the boy was becoming. It is only when he is fighting him that he finally sees it and lets go of his attachment to him, which is why he is able to hurt him as he does. But yes, Anakin did choose between the Republic and Padme, because the moment where he turns comes down to her and his need to hold onto her, which is why he stops Mace from killing Palpatine so that he can use him to save her. It is only after he has fully turned, that he stops caring about her and cared more about his growing power and his desire to rule.

Actually, it is why he turns because he comes to believe that the only way to make the galaxy better is to force it to change, rather than work within the system to effect change. Because he was so passionate, he winds up dooming himself and everyone else.

Kennedy has said that they're not undoing anything that was in the first six films. Meaning that Anakin did bring balance.

OBI-WAN: "You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them. Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness."

Yes, he has. Between 1999 and 2005, he has been consistent.

"The first film starts with the last age of the Republic; which is it's getting tired, old, it's getting corrupt. There's the rise of the Sith, who are now becoming a force, and in the backdrop of this you have Anakin Skywalker: a young boy who's destined to be a very significant player in bringing balance back to the Force and the Republic.

In the second film, we get into more of that turmoil. It's the beginning of the Clone Wars, it's the beginning of the end of democracy in the Republic, sorta the beginning of the end of the Republic, and it's Anakin Skyalker beginning to deal with some of his more intense emotions of anger, hatred, sense of loss, possessiveness, jealousy, and the other things he's coping with.

Then we will get to the 3rd film, where he is seduced to the dark side, which brings up to films four, five, and six, where Anakin's offspring redeem him & allow him to fulfill the prophecy where he brings balance to the Force by doing away with the Sith and getting rid of evil in the universe."

--George Lucas, The Star Wars Trilogy VHS Boxset 2000.

"The Midichlorians have brought Anakin into being as “the Chosen One” who will balance the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don’t know yet whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don’t know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out."

--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I, 1999.

"There is a hint in the movie that there was a Sith Lord who had the power to create life. But it's left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the Midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the Midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the Midichlorians? It's left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine, 2005.

"It really has to do with learning," Lucas says, "Children teach you compassion. They teach you to love unconditionally. Anakin can't be redeemed for all the pain and suffering he's caused. He doesn't right the wrongs, but he stops the horror. The end of the Saga is simply Anakin saying, I care about this person, regardless of what it means to me. I will throw away everything that I have, everything that I've grown to love- primarily the Emperor- and throw away my life, to save this person. And I'm doing it because he has faith in me; he loves me despite all the horrible things I've done. I broke his mother's heart, but he still cares about me, and I can't let that die. Anakin is very different in the end. The thing of it is: The prophecy was right. Anakin was the chosen one, and he does bring balance to the Force. He takes the one ounce of good still left in him and destroys the Emperor out of compassion for his son."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 221.

"In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of the Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that the Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine Interview, 1999.

"I think it is obvious that [Qui-Gon] was wrong in Episode I and made a dangerous decision, but ultimately this decision may be correct. The “phantom menace” refers to the force of the dark side of the universe. Anakin will be taken over by dark forces which in turn destroy the balance of the Galaxy, but the individual who kills the Emperor is Darth Vader—also Anakin. The tale meanders and both the prediction and Qui-Gon are correct—Anakin is the Chosen One, and he did bring peace at last with his own sacrifice. Luke couldn't kill the Emperor himself, but he could make Anakin reflect on his life and kill the Emperor."

--George Lucas, Cut Magazine interview, 1999.

"The sad thing is Padme says there is still good in him and Luke says in ROTJ there is good in you. Its recurring. There is good in him. And that will bring balance to the Force. He needs to get rid of the Sith and bring balance to the Force."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

Yes, it is finished. It was finished a long time ago. Ben Solo has been tricked by Snoke into thinking that his grandfather was doing the right thing by destroying the Jedi and helping Sidious rule through fear and intimidation.

Anakin is the one who brings balance because he is the only one who is capable of destroying Palpatine and the Sith as a whole. When they both die, the Force is put back into balance. They believe in Luke because he is Anakin's son and he has the same potential to be very powerful as him, not because he was a Jedi. That was already proven by Kanan Jarrus, Ezra Bridger and Ahsoka Tano's inability to defeat Vader in battle. All there were Jedi or had Jedi training and all three were not powerful enough to take him out. And we know from what Sidious did with the Jedi Posse and Yoda, that they could never beat him. Only a Skywalker had the potential.

"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

--George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204.

"At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

--George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

"The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Lets face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

--George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

 

This is a very thorough analysis, and I'm inclined to bow out.

However, just a few points:

This neglecting two things - the causation of the Separatist Crisis - which was a corrupt Republic. (Dooku had to have something to exploit, and the corruption in the senate was real, and confirmed both in- and outside of- universe). The second thing is neglects is context. Working collaboratively with a sense of fraternity is indeed one of the positive messages that SW illustrates. This is not the same as a monastic Order working with a corrupt, and increasingly authoritarian government. There is no natural harmony here, no notion of kinship or alliance. It is a marriage of political circumstance, ultimately, as I see it, of unfortunate error.

If he had stayed loyal to the Jedi, he would have traded on attachment for another. He would have opposed change in favor of stagnation, in favor of an unreformed republic. One of the tragedies of ROTS is that change was very much necessary - the change came about as a result of much conflict, but it was ultimately a necessity to allow the ultimate satisfaction of the prophecy of the Chosen One - i.e. the restoration of balance.

It is also worth highlighting that if Anakin had not been taken in by the Jedi, then the prophecy would never have been satisfied - therefore no balance, no Jedi, no ultimate philosophical meaning to the OT. Worse, the Sith would have discovered Anakin before they did and ensured the Jedi's total and complete eradication.

I am in agreement - I would make the note of distinguishing between Obi-Wan's feelings and those of the Jedi Order at large - they were, as you observe, distinct and not mutually representative.

But this is slightly off point - the issue is the Jedi's weakness. That was to see the republic as something to be reformed, or defended in spite of its imminent implosion in political, social and military terms. Palpatine pushed Anakin's views on the world into the realm of the Sith, and that was the result of his corruption in the scene you reference here (and I agree with that) - but Anakin's instinct for change, his appetite for it, was not inherently dark. But the Jedi did not kindle such feelings, nor embrace them, either in general or in the case of Anakin specifically.

He turns because he is exploited by the Sith - by Palpatine, and the machinations of the grand plan. His own views are merely catalysts, making the seduction easier. His passions for Padmé are a somewhat different matter, and I would concede they showed an inherent personal tendency for greed. I'll grant that much certainly. His error was not to go "beyond the Dark Side" as Ben Kenobi terms it - he fell into the trap. Only later did he realize this in ROTJ.

But the point is that it is not inevitable that he would turn - he operates within a moral center until his final corruption at the hands of Palpatine. He strives for moral good, but because his methods vary from the Jedi and their ways, he is not trusted, indeed he is not given the primacy which his prophecy should command.

I know many of these arguments go beyond the good/evil construct which Lucas and others have often put at the top of the SW themes list - but I believe in a greater subtlety here, one which can co-habit with the overall SW message. I think you have to work to ignore it - just as it is difficult for any human existence or event to be paired down into clear good and evil.

 

These are fascinating discussions to behold and participate in, mainly because we are projecting our own intricacies onto a creative work that doesn't inherently contain them in and of itself. Different viewers plus the artists themselves all perceive different explanations and reasonings for how and why things happen in the works, and the only thing authoritative is the work itself.

 

ROTJ is not affected materially by the imposition of the balance concept.