ST John Boyega (Finn) in the ST

This isn't a story. Not one that makes sense. You keep raising the issue of brain-washing, but Finn never struggles with it, and literally never says it himself. You say that he is "figuring life out" and but he repeatedly shows that he is quite opinionated and capable, not the least about these issues. You try to make a discussion out of you think--without evidence--that he "might have considered" but concede that he never actually feels any temptation.

Most of this is just conjecture you're offering up, wholly unsupported by the movie. Even that mostly works by infantalizing him and ignoring the decisions he's very clearly made about his own life.

 

Sorry for not getting back to you on that. I believe it’s there and will give it more thought in time. Is there the impression that it isn’t?

 

Yes. Absolutely.

 

As @Jabba-wocky says, there is an impression that he doesn't have one.

That you were so quick to make one for Luke, and others are able to make one for Kylo and Rey, but no one can do one for Finn in TLJ, says a lot about the writers' priorities (or lack there of) for him.

 

He is figuring it out. His journey begins with him abandoning the Resistence and all the people on that ship because he believes it’s doomed and only wants Rey.

He arrived at Canto Bight and is star struck and coming to like it before Rose literally helps him see more.

He meets a guy who tells him not to join. In the chaos, once his plan had failed, he could have reverted to “where’s Rey?” but doesn’t. He goes to Crait and more than that is willing to never see Rey again in order to die for the Resistance. That’s a massive change. He was willing to never see her again. The person who previously gave him his primary purpose is replaced by the cause itself.

Again, the point is to get us wondering what he cares about by seeing how he reacts to these developments related to his earlier established preference to think about himself, or Rey, and abandon overwhelming odds and that question is answered in the end when he does the exact opposite of running from overwhelming odds and does it for the cause, not for Rey, or to be with her because if he kept going he never sees her again.

 

I just now dissected an aspect to it. I can do more in depth when I’m next in front of a PC. Hammering this all out on my phone.

 

This is silly.

1. It was doomed. I don't know how that's suggestive of anything. Even Leia and Luke are, by the end, saying explicitly that the real fight will have to involve people who are not a part of the Resistance forces.

2. He said it's a nice place. While apparently unaware of their background--nice of the film to once again make him the stupidest person in the room, by the way--he simply expressed awe at their wealth. It wasn't some declaration that he agreed with their careers. Indeed, he immediately expressed disgust on learning what they do. There was never hesitation.

3. It wasn't a hyperspace capable ship and everything that was had been destroyed. Going to Crait was literally the only way to survive.

 

Finn is just dumb. Plain and simple. He knows how the first Order works. He knows the ranks. He knows how their minds are warped from birth. He breaks out of this yet has zero problem destroying the first Order, even knowing their are potentials that are in a position he was once in.

Maybe he's mad that Rey ran to Ren.

 

Due to time they cut 3 notable scenes that also support what I shared earlier.

One involved them dressing up like the patrons and presumably Finn enjoying it. Cut because they went with the FO costume setup instead.

Another involved Finn telling Rose he fights for Rey and Rose being annoyed by his continued lack of commitment to the Resistance itself.

A third scene cut involves more of what you’re talking about. He actually asks 6 troopers to join him for all the reasons you said and they consider it but are killed by Phasma. In Johnson’s original script but cut due to running time.

More Luke and Rey training was also cut due to time.

I really wish they’d do a director’s cut. I always liked the extended cuts of the LOTR films more despite their length.

 

Yes but it goes back to The Force Awakens, as well. FInn breaks out, and then an hour later explains how to blow up Starkville base without a second thought.

 

I’m about to get some sleep. Night all.

 

What are you even saying? Lol

 

Its weird that they made time for thinks like titty milking and shirtless kylo, but stuff that would've added much needed character moments and story beats, were axed due to time. At least we got a crank call scene.

 

I just fail to see the Canto Bight plot as providing all of this growth and introspection of Finn as you keep trying to make it out to be. The execution is horrible which I suppose shouldn't shock anyone considering how RJ seemed to have done more rewriting of this part than any other section of the film, that despite that there needed to be major reshoots for this portion of the story and despite even all of that interesting chunks of the story were left on the editing floor anyway.

But even if I did think this part was better executed than I do, it would still ultimately suffer in my opinion from the inclusion of Rose who is not so well written and not interesting enough for Finn to take a backseat to. To make it worse off RJ tried to attempt to shoehorn in some quick romance into the Finn-Rose dynamic which failed miserably it appears to most people, including myself. It seemed like a downgrade for Finn to go along with all of the other downgrades. RJ sticks Finn with this problematic and inferior version of the female companion he got in TFA, toss them into a plot that adds nothing much to the overall story and attempted a How To Catch a Thief tribute that blows up in his face. First of all both Finn and Rose were looking too non-glamorous for that to work, second we didn't get enough time to know Rose to buy into it, third RJ pretty much dropped the ball on the "catch a thief" part, fourth we the audience never got to enjoy the splendor of Cantonica to help set the mood in our minds and most of all the story didn't allow for Finn and Rose to spend enough time with one another on Cantonica to justify her last line to Finn towards the end. if this stuff doesn't work then the whole subplot doesn't work. It makes audiences too impatient with this story to be able to pick up on any nuances regarding Finn's supposed development

 

But Finn doesn't get a chance to shine like Jyn and Cassian so what's the point? We never doubted the competency, bravery and seriousness of Jyn and Cassian. We never saw one as being so inferior to the other or one having to serve as inspiration or a moral guide to the other. Finn is troubling in all of these areas IMO.

To further back that up in the original idea (perhaps it was even filmed) when Finn and Rose were going to dress up to fit in better, RJ planned to have Finn be unaware that he had dressed in his tux backwards! Everybody get that? Dumb Finn wasn't even going to have enough sense to dress in the outfit properly. That's Jar Jar territory. What it certainly isn't is Cary Grant in "To Catch A Thief" .

 

Well, the miking scene is probably less than 6 seconds or so. The Kylo talks were a key setup for the main plot itself so they weren’t going to cut from that. Shirt off or on... they wanted to build that connection.

You’ll get no quarrel out of me that it’s a shame they couldn’t have done all of the Cantonica stuff he had written, the additional training with Rey, and Finn trying to organize a revolt. Hopefully the revolt aspect is just moved forward into IX and made even larger. If it is then the cut in some ways might make it worth it, saving his improved leadership and speech for a turning point in IX’s climax.

All that said, the scene still flows and that’s because Johnson took the time he had from being ahead of schedule everywhere else and smoothed out the aspects that had been cut.

I could personally handle a 3 hour extended cut the same way I do the extended cuts of LOTR but can understand why Lucasfilm would have wanted it down to 2hr and 30 for general audiences at this scale.

Anyway, I enjoyed his thread with Rose and feel like he’s growing into somebody who could be part of the new leadership of the Rebellion into the future and hopefully he does lead a revolt.

 

Yes. At this rate he may get appointed Assistant Chief Janitor or even Court Jester.

 

Broken down differently:

He starts off where he ends in TFA. Focused primarily on Rey and willing to abandon the Resistence in its time of need to focus on her exclusively.


From that start he gets to show the folllowing strengths and firsts on screen:

Ingenuity and intelligence by being one of the few people on the entire ship, along with Rose, who actively tried to come up with a solution and a mission that — if it had worked — could have saved tons of lives and was worth the risks to try.


Loyalty. First to the individual he most cares about. Then to an entire Resistance movement he’s willing to give his life for.

Courage. When their plan is listened to and he feels like he’s part of something bigger he volunteers to go into a danger zone where even being spotted would result in death.

Growing moral core on screen & sense of purpose. Increasing sense of purpose to improve inequality and suffering on a large scale rather than the earlier mix that wanted to look after himself but cared about Rey. He tells DJ that he should give her the medalion back despite it being the only up front payment they have at the moment. DJ ultimately does.



Applied knowledge and leadership. Uses his knowledge of the ship and protocol to not only locate the uniform cleaning area but also leads them I’m how the FO would act while in uniform.


Resolve. Many would cry or gravel when facing execution. Heck, people in Star Wars have cut deals in even less precarious situations. Finn doesn’t cut any deals. He doesn’t offer to sell the Resistance out and have that regrets lead to a reversal later. He stands his ground and DJ becomes the Lando and Han who leaves (but this time doesn’t return to help the heroes). From this point forward he is prepared to die not only for Rey but the Resistance itself.

Hand to hand combat acumen. Phasma teaches them all. She’s meant to represent the best hand to hand acumen of all Troopers. Han Solo never had a fight sequence on screen like this. In Finn’s established world this is the equivalent of Han Solo facing Boba Fett in an extended hand to hand battle where Han kills him. Han didn’t get that. Poe has yet to show hand to hand combat in any manner at all. These are skill traits typically saved for Jedi in this saga. The Phasma and Finn battle is the first non-Force use hand to hand combat sequence of this magnitude in Star Wars history. It’s Finn facing the embodiment of one of the worst aspects of the First Order; It’s child stealing, conditioning and slave fighting setup. It’s given the same low angle side profile camera work with epic background damage even that some of the best Jedi vs Smith battles got! And he does the equivalent of a Superman punch (for anyone with MMA knowledge) in the air to open it with his weapon. He faces down and kills the embodiment of the child slave program. He gets to see her blue eyes as she implies he was always the hardest child slave to contain, which he sees as a compliment and that makes him proud, and and he gets to deliver the last remark that he is proudly a rebel. Compare that with Han becoming his enemy’s art work by the end of the OT’s second film for a second.



The visuals in the above sequence are jaw dropping and epic in ways that are normally reserved only for the Jedi.

Selflessness and adaptability. Finn jumps into a Speeder he’s never flown with courage and adaptability and is given the hero moment of a martyr with an extended sequence showing his ship melting away and his willingness to die for the cause. This would have meant he would never seen Rey again. A deliberate reminder of his character’s arch growth.


Adorkable charm and charisma. In 2018 and beyond Men heartthrobs are different than the John Wayne’s of the past. Rose has become as inspired by his growth from possible defector who’d given up on the Resistance to someone willing to give his life to it willingly. She and the audience knows that they will need more people with his qualities to rebuild and that the path to winning is by protecting the values and people and ideals we don’t want to lose. A theme throughout the film.


Complete with the only on the lips kiss of the new saga so far and perhaps the first interracial on the lips kiss in Star Wars history after 40 years of only white people kissing.

He saves Rose from death and then is among the first in the room to notice the Crystal Critters have found an exit.

His arch ends with him accomplishing the goal he initially wanted by reuniting with a safe Rey who hugs him happily. Rey then looks at him and smiles while he tends to Rose.

He could end up being the first male cool enough and with enough desirable qualities in Star Wars history to end up desired by more than one woman in IX. That it was one of the former child slaves himself who returned to and defeated the child slave master in Phasma will resonate with other troopers in the aftermath and could possibly set-up a revolt Spartacus style in IX or Troopers who see Finn as a more inspirational hero to them than the propaganda and conditioning they’d received.

Put aside the disappointment that he isn’t a Jedi. This is a solid arch in a film deliberately made to lead to struggle and failure for each character to setup an epic finale in act III (IX). I truly believe Finn will be an inspiration for a new generation of fans into the future. He’s at the core of the plot that is geared most toward young audiences with BB8 and the Falthiers. Considering the political concepts and firsts not only for non-Force users but also people of colour in Star Wars the next generation of kids are getting some positive messaging and hero’s that look different than the hero’s who were on screen most of the time when I was 8.

 

Staring down death like a champ.


Remember when Han got to face Boba Fett down like this with all the history and significance of what this dynamic represented?







I tried posting this earlier but the image hosting didn't work. I'm 99% sure that these are either officially released images or slow downs of clips from trailers but mods if you suspect either are not please remove. It's difficult to know which images are official at this point or from trailers because of how much content is out there and how many trailers and spots have been cut.

 

Imagine that. Finn is so dumb he doesn't notice that he put his tux on backwards......

 

That all goes without saying, in regards to Finn. I thought John boyega did a much better job in this film VS the force awakens.

After the Force Awakens I was able to just go with the flow on this one(TLJ). Walked out saying "wow that was great" (with some objective issues). Let it soak in before coming to this site. There are many solid points that are made on this board for and against the film.

In relation to Finn; JJ Abraham uses this character to establish what the first Order essentially is. There are scenes describing these storm troopers as people which are mind conditioned from birth. It is established that there are systems in play which will correct any deviation from the prime directive--finn is supposed to go to "reconditioning". It was his "first offense". What this tells the audience is that there are other storm troopers that may need to go there. These characters are humanized from this point forward. We are meant pity the situation. And while I agree with the arc you describe above, it's not hidden in any way. It all still rests on pre established exposition. More than any other character Finn knows there are people aboard these vessels which have not yet made the choice to fully abiding by the prime directive of the First Order.

Again I agree with the assessment, but that assessment rests on what can be described as a crucial flaw.

"you don't know the first Order like I do."

"I'm not part of the resistance... I was a stormtroopers... But the second I was told to harm innocent civilians I could not do it..."

Yet the events that follow are rather hypocritical why he could not go along with the first Order.

 

I just find it amazing that so much emphasis on this thread is placed on how Finn doesn't get as many hero moments and how his subplot seems sidelined and more aimed at kids in a saga that had this for huge stretches of time for arguably its most popular character at the time.

He goes from having his own plan fail brutally and being handcuffed in Empire to this:



to this in his enemy's possession:



To being saved:



To more time being roped up.



To having his bitter enemy accidentally tumble to his death without any fight at all.



To this:







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And such amazing logistics as scout troopers being without weapons and leaving their post to chase.



That's a huge amount of on-screen time from midway through Empire through much of ROTJ time where Han (arguably the most popular person in Star Wars at the time) is basically utilized as a prop to be saved, for comedic silliness, and to showcase the teddy bears comedic silliness and allow them some of the biggest heroics.

I swear... if the stories were somehow swapped and released in the 1980s and 2018 and Finn had Han's exact same moment's above from suggesting Cloud City on through this people would have been livid. Imagine what people would have said if he was made Phasma's art work. Similarly, if Han had been given more of a storyline like Finn's in this but this all happened in the 1980s when they were kids, where he comes up with a plan and heads to a Casino and breaks out of jail and is part of a team that hacks onto an Empire ship and faces certain death at the hands of Boba Fett's orders (somehow) and then got to fight and kill Boba Fett in hand to hand combat and get to deliver a cool line while he watches him die, and then returned to Crait in some rickety old ship and was willing to kill himself but was saved and given a kiss by a new woman, allowing for there to be two women interested in him, and then gets to have a moment with Leia too people would love it.

And for all the talk of a new character stealing Finn's thunder... it was a new character with similar strengths and weaknesses to Han that literally got to blow up the second death star.



Nostalgia is a magical thing. Cynicism when you're older and assessing Star Wars is more of a curse that can lead to a ton of hypocrisy.