Lit Reading NJO...Again

You're obviously seeing it in a higher philosophical plane than I look at it. It's just a fun movie to me. To me the Empire and the Vong are the same, enemies bent on destruction. The notion of "existential threat" isn't something I'm looking that deep into for SW personally. If you do, that's fine.

 

Within the context of the story, the concept of having to commit genocide against the Yuuzhan Vong is brought up. This isn't brought up against the Galactic Empire. The Galactic Empire isn't a wholly different species for which the discussion of genocide is raised.

But if we're going to not do much more than scratch the surface, what precisely are we discussing?

 

What are you talking about the War on Terror and espousing genocidal attitudes? I don't follow politics heavily but I've not heard of anybody who wants to do to the terrorists what they do to us. We're not advocating blowing up innocents in market places.

 

And yet that happens with drone strikes.

 

I could literally find you scores of documentation. Statements from congress people, candidates for office, actual soldiers and former soldiers expressing such things, the current president of the United States saying the families of terrorists should be killed during his campaign. A Philadelphia police chief was reported to have said "nuke Mecca" on 9/11.

Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in the War on Terror. Weddings and funerals have been bombed.

"We" have killed more Muslim civilians than terror groups like ISIS and al-Qaeda have killed of "us."

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

I know genocide is brought up. And I think it's a red herring personally if it's mentioned earlier in the series before AR. The fight isn't to that point yet, no one has to commit that act at that point, so it's a nonissue then. The fight is the fight at that point. So fight normally. Once AR was considered, like I said, it's not ideal, I'd hate to use it, I was even against it at that point too bc it wasn't necessary and the notion of blowback, but for real, if it really came to it, better to let the Vong enslave you than use it?

Let's not go there. No one is intentionally killing innocents with drone strikes, that's a little different than a terrorist intentionally setting off a bomb in a market. We don't even make drone strikes intentionally in highly populated innocent areas. They're very calculated to specific targets.

 

but I'd ask let's not devolve this into a real world issues thing, I like you both a lot and it's fun talking on here, but I'm pretty passionate about that stuff, and I don't think that'll go well for us

 

I guess I'm confused as to how it doesn't change the dynamic. It does point towards the ideal that no one is irrevocably doomed. An ideal that the Jedi ignore later on, but that's for the LOTF thread.

The Republic blindly followed the will of Palpatine and let itself be corrupted...just like Rome under Ceaser. I don't know if the Clone Army was 'waiting' for Order 66 like you suggest...I think they were just assuming it to be lawful order given by a lawful commander.

Outsider: Isn't the whole point of the boards to delve into the 'deeper' meaning of the Star Wars universe in general? And the NJO in particular since this is the NJO thread? Because NJO happened simultaneously with the Iraqi/Afghan invasions, it is almost impossible to NOT compare the two.

 

Well, when I say good/evil black/white I don't personally mean everybody has to line up on one side or the other and that no one can ever change sides, I meant that what is good is good and what is evil is evil is clear, actions are clearly on one side or the other, no deep quandary is necessary to decide if something is good or evil, so as long as u'r on the good u'r cool, and if u'r on the evil u'r to be opposed, but u still can figure out what you're doing is wrong and come back to the good

About the Republic, I agree in the sense that's why the Republic failed, and how the Empire's creation came to be, I personally wouldn't define the govt. style of the Empire as anything close to the Republic, that's simply how I draw the distinction as them being totally separate, I don't think the citizens or even most Senators of the Old Republic looked around by the time of the OT and said, yes this is fine and dandy and like what we had or is better

All I meant about waiting on Order 66, was it was obviously always in their programming, not that they intentionally knew it was there and were like, "hey guys wonder when Order 66 will be authorized so we can turn on the Jedi"

Idk about the point of the board, I see it as a melting pot for all SW fans, some probably do want to delve deeper into it and there's nothing wrong with that really, but as someone who doesn't delve deeper, I still would like to be a part of the boards also

And the Afghan thing, I know NJO was released at that time, h/e admittedly I just read it for the first time this summer so I don't think to correlate it to that

 

Life isn't as clear. Was Anakin right to not fire Centerpoint? It might have ended the war faster if he had. Or was saving the lives of innocent Vong worth the price of fighting for longer?

The Senate voted for Palpatine to have emergency powers, so were complicit in his rise.

A lot of us on here read these books as they were released, so for us the NJO was a proxy war for OIF/OEF...some of us fought both...so you'll have to allow that our views are different from someone who experienced both through a different lens.

 

Well, on CenterPoint, that's a personal view I know, so that can differ....I will say this though, why is everyone so concerned with CenterPoint and killing innocents? it was going to be used against a Vong war battalion, that's not innocents, I get if the question is if Anakin should have done it bc of his age or something, and looking backward from the aftermath is not fair bc 1)u didn't know that while making the decision, 2)the aftermath is bc Thracken used it, not Anakin, it's said Anakin could have used it properly and not killed the Hapans

I would argue blaming the Senate for everything afterwards simply bc they voted to give Palps emergency powers is a little extreme in my opinion, since they had no clue that he was a Sith and giving him that would lead to what it did

I can definitely allow for your views, no problem, I admit I see how you can come to those views looking at it the way you do, that is a two way street though, I've said why I see it the way I see it though and it seems no one accepts that in the sense of my pov

 

It also makes the whole kids versus elders riff strange too that the series does. Arguably they should have all been at least 18 when the Vong invasion kicked off.

It's interesting that NJO pretty much pre-dates that, with SbS being published right at the time of 9/11. I'd agree the idea that a single cause can be used as a justification for any and all acts is something that has only gained resonance due to the last 17 years

They're not. The Empire was all about destroying people on a moral and spiritual level, the Vong are about physical control and domination - by say hooking everyone up to an Embrace of Pain so they can scream for the glory of Shimmraa.

Two things here - One, you don't need Alpha Red for genocide - it'd speed it up certainly, but you can achieve it without. It's not the idea that the NR or Jedi would deliberately go with the strategy of 'no prisoners, kill them all' - even if, after all the Vong did up to and after the Fall of Coruscant, it might be understandable. It is that with an indoctrinated enemy who has been told they must fight to the death and refuse surrender that there's little in the way of alternatives to killing them. Replicate that across an entire race and the result is genocide as side-effect, which it might be possible to argue isn't genocide, but merely mass slaughter in war. Either way, dead Vong, lots of them.

Second, what I liked with the AR plot is it was demonstrated that if you use AR to kill the Vong, it kills everyone else too by mutating.

This can be argued both ways - if Anakin had fired Centrepoint successfully, Lah might have been sufficiently impressed by what he saw as infidel resolve so as to seek alternative solutions. Chances Shimmraa and Onimi would have over-ruled, but on an utilititarian basis, killing a Vong fleet to stop the war dead in its tracks might well be supported by that philosophy's moral calculus.

But if it had happened that way, does anyone really want utilitarian Jedi? I suppose one answer is we got that in DN and onwards and it wasn't pretty.

It's an interesting area to explore.

 

I get their ways and reasons for control were different. However the concept of them wanting to rule the galaxy is what I mean they are the same. Neither is good. Both should be opposed.

I do understand the notion that genocide might be inevitable considering how the Vong fight, but what are you to do then, give up yourself and just stop fighting at some point simply bc they won't? The issue was just simply always, that I felt that genocide was always brought up in a way that felt like the characters were advocating sitting on their tails or giving up instead of fighting. It's obvious others saw it differently which is fine. And on the AR plot, I absolutely agree with your point there, which was why I was all in with Triebekk on not using it bc of that.

 

Well, that's just it, isn't it? The series conjures these spectres or abysses but then just skates over them.

As to the Vong and Empire, I'd see the difference as that you could live under the Empire, whereas the Vong wanted you in pain 24/7 for the entirety of your life.

 

oh I agree with that in reality, but wouldn't that go to say that the Vong were even more evil than the Empire and thus needed to be opposed all the more? meaning the warrior faction obvisouly

 

Depends on what you look at:

The Empire destroyed Despayre, Alderaan - plus in Legends there's the Galaxy Gun that took out several major targets including the moon of Da Soocha. It got people to willingly construct and operate such weaponry too.

In contrast, the Vong are total war and total domination of everyone.

It could be argued both work on different aspects of totalitarianism. Which scares you more is down to how you see it.

 

The empire was bearable-at least it would have been until Palpatine dispensed with the empire's secular leadership and installed himself as Dark God Emperor of the Universe-which he was on Byss and what he planned to do to basically the whole universe.

The Vong weren't like that-they demanded obedience and religious conversion, they enslaved you and they sacrificed you to satisfy their gods.

The Vong were far more a threat to the citizen of the GFFA than the empire and in a very different way.

The empire was a government, the Vong were a whole society.

To be sure the NJO revealed the Vong were not all the same, the difference between Nom Anor and Tsavong Lah shows that but to redeem the Vong one had to transform their society not just kill some people and seize some planets.

 

The Empire is Vader in macro -- he's the father you can empathize with, the Empire is made up of humans you can empathize with.

The Yuuzhan Vong are the Other. The Jedi in Luke stopped projecting his shadow on his father (indeed, seeing his own shadow in his father gave him empathy) and saved him, now Jacen is taking the next step and breaking down the barrier between self and Other in an extragalactic invader whom ostensibly aren't connected to the Force, to boot.

But everything is connected by the Force, and everything has common ground. The Yuuzhan Vong were once the Yun-Yuuzhan Vong and lived in a symbiotic society in which the barriers between self and other were permeable, and can become that again. And that's balance.

 

That's the whole point of TUF. And one Jacen is very much the bridge for.

 

Instead, he opens himself. In his most secret center, that gap in his being that once fed him pain, he offers an embrace.
Into the hollow in his center, he pours compassion. Absolute empathy. Perfect understanding.
He accepts the pain he caused the dhuryam with his betrayal; he shares with the dhuryam the pain that betrayal had caused him.
He shares with the dhuryam all his experience with the spectrum of life: the featureless whiteout of agony, the red tide of rage, the black hole of despair, the gamma-sleet of loss... and the lush verdure of growing things, the grays of stone and duracrete, the glisten of gemstones and transparisteel, the blue-white sizzle of the noonday sun and its exact echo in a lightsaber's blade.
He shares how much he loves it all: for all these things are all one thing: pain and joy, loss and reunion, life and death. To love any is to love all, for none can exist without every other.
The Universe.
The Force.
All is one.
The Yuuzhan Vong and the species of the New Republic. Jacen and the World Brain.
When I betrayed you, I betrayed myself. When I killed your siblings, I killed pieces of myself. You may kill me, but I will live on in you.
We are One.

***

"What do you see?"

"The island. Life. Death and decay, that feeds new life. Warmth. Cold. Peace. Violence."

"And between it all?

"Balance. An energy. A Force."

"And inside you?"

"Inside me that same Force."

 

Jw, I definitely understand accepting Jacen's realizations since they are what's presented in the book. And it's a good theory that we're all connected in a way that hurting others hurts ourselves. But, what if I don't accept them personally though? What if I think just bc Jacen came to that realization doesn't necessarily make it right? Does that make me wrong?

 

it makes Vergere a Sith Lord

 

as much as that felt like a huge retcon based off what we had and that Sith story just did not fit the timeline of Vergere's life events, I guess ur right

 

Not at all. But it also doesn't meant that Jacen is wrong. Philosophy, which this is in our case, is not a zero-sum equation.


Do you believe in absolutes? If so, then believing Vergere is a Sith will certainly make sense.

 

You're right about in universe on the philosophy. Jacen could be right in the sense of what the story is trying to establish.

Yes I believe in absolutes, and I could believe Vergere was a Sith, but I have a hard time believing the story that SW give of her being a Sith and setting events in motion....timeline wise it doesn't line up with other events in universe without getting very convoluted and high improbable