ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I disgree - to continue you need to have a reason and a real challenge for them. I think the answer that they all likely did progress the way the OT woudl have projected, then things changes (and gave us a reason to have more). We just didn't get to see it all.

If Luke wasn't broken the way we saw him, how could we have the galaxy in peril? Especially if force-using chancellor Leia was around to help and General Han?

I think we got a pretty brilliant challenge that makes sense - Han and Leia son, heir to the Skywalker legacy, falls shaking his uncle/teacher, father and mother to the core, while also joining up with the empires legacy placing the galaxy in peril.

One single thing that all of the OT3 are close enough to. Without some silly web of coincidences something happened that took two of our heros out of the game, and puts Leia in a place where she's responsible to resist the bad guys rather than being in politics.

 

Well I'm glad it works for you man. I'm envious in a way as well, because I just don't see the ST as being the epitome of what we should've gotten from where the end of the OT left off at all.

It didn't HAVE to be written in this fashion, but it was, and here we are.

 

He is one guy. The galaxy can easily be in peril if he isn`t Loser McCoward. The PT showed an entire Jedi Order basically being overrun so it`s not like Jedi can hold back any danger. A threat from the Unknown Regions and boom, galaxy in peril. Even with a functioning new Jedi Order and Leia leading a functioning New Republic, it is the easiest thing ever to come up with a scenario that brings the galaxy into peril. The one thing you can`t have is reset the galaxy to the time of the ANH title crawl. But the OT is already there, no need for a lesser replica of it.

I find absolutely zero about the story set-up in TLJ brilliant. I thought Kylo was okay in TFA, though he made a pretty poor showing at the end of that movie. However, I was never really that invested in him that I wanted a Kylo fanfiction movie next. It made nearly every character an unlikeable mess to me. Short of Poe, Finn and when she stops soap-boxing Rose, I hated every other character in the movie. Okay, Leia was barely there so she just gets a disbelieving eyeroll for the Leia Poppins moment. But beyond that my feelings were: Luke = disdain, Rey = resentment, Kylo = annoyance, Holdo = loathing. If I need one thing to enjoy stories is characters I do not want to catapult right into a wall.

 

TFA is a silly web of coincidences from top to bottom. The map to Luke just happens to be on the same planet as Rey, the Falcon just happens to be on the same planet as Rey, Han and Chewie somehow missed it all this time but they just happen to be there, Finn just happens to decide to revolt this time and on and on.

Easy enough to put the galaxy in peril without destroying them or splitting them apart - why is that necessary? It's not. Have the First Order as an ISIS like thing. Have the government ignore the problem. The First Order puts someone into Luke's academy, and that person leads to its destruction - Luke wasn't there, he comes back to find this. Have multiple of their children there, one is killed, maybe one escapes or is kidnapped, Luke, Han and Leia realize it's all sliding back into hell, so they go out on their own to make a Resistance. Now I've put you in pretty much the same place, but the difference is that Luke isn't on some island which may or may not be findable by map, since that was pretty much ignored in the back half of TFA.

The difference is that Luke, Han and Leia aren't responsible for everything going to hell - completely undercutting their heroism in the OT. Their only child isn't the Emperor, reducing the Skywalkers to the scourge of the galaxy and negating Anakin and Luke's actions in the original six.

 

Well Kasdan said Han was never truly attracted to Leia (while promoting Solo) and that he disliked them as a couple after ESB came out so not surprised they crapped all over their love story in TFA.

If they were actually going for "feminist Leia", they wouldn't have pushed the BS narrative that Ben fell to the Dark Side because Leia had a career as a Senator so therefore she sucked as a mom, which is as 1950s sexist as it gets.

Putting Leia as "General" just felt to me just as JJ was resetting the GFFA back to ANH Rebellion v. Empire, and Han back to ANH smuggler Han, he was resetting Leia back to ANH Leader of the Rebellion, instead of the natural progression of her as a Senator or Jedi post ROTJ.

 

I wonder if by "Han was never truly attracted to Leia", he meant "I was never truly attracted to Leia". Kasdan has made other comments about himself that he then applied directly to Han as if they were one and the same.

 

I think he was still bitter that Kershner/Ford changed a lot of the dialogue he wrote for Han/Leia in ESB so when he had the opportunity to write and produce his own love story without anyone interfering he wanted to be like “LOOK GUYS MY LOVE STORY IS SO MUCH BETTER THAN HAN/LEIA”. Kind of like the band that had one good album in the 90s but spends every subsequent promo tour for their latest album talking about how THIS album is so much better and deeper than the one everyone knows them for.

 

Kind of an interesting point and relatively minor but why does General Leia even come to Takodana. Seems like going to the frontline is foolish for the leader of the resistance. I mean it’s obviously to further the reunion with Han but feels like having her out in the field maybe isn’t the smartest thing. I mean if she’s going to go there because of the map to Luke it feels like she would have gone with Rey to Ach To to get Luke

Also to Ashoka’s point it seems like force skills would have been extremely useful in leia’s career as shown in bloodlines and as a politician, leader or general

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To be fair Kasdan also wrote the Raiders of the Lost Ark and ROTJ screenplays and had a successful directing career, with The Big Chill, The Accidental Tourist and Silverado. But he does seem bitter these days.

 

I pretty much agree with anyone who said that Rey should have had a natural progression. She should have trained, made mistakes, etc. before she got the big mojo. That's what the journey is about. Luke makes a lot of mistakes in TESB before he is more of a Knight in ROTJ. Conversely, Anakin is the Jedi who could not overcome his crippling insecurities. That does not excuse his actions. Shmi and Qui-Gon had been the only ones there for him, and I think it's fair to say that Obi-Wan, Padme, Ahsoka, Yoda, and everyone did not have the qualifications to help Anakin, but they tried. Anakin would have fallen anyway. Palpatine just gave him a little push, to quote Heath Ledger's Joker. What we like about Vader is not all of his crimes, but what he did for his son when he finally decided to remember what his mom taught him: Sometimes, we are meant to help someone, and that's what he did for his son at the very last.

So, yeah, Rey just isn't a character. She is meant to be a representation of what girls would want to be if they just had this intuition and ability without earning it. That's why I prefer Jyn Erso, since she learns how to channel her experience, training, and emotions before she goes Rogue. As K put it. Lol.

The same could be said about the original Leia. To me, I look at Leia, Luke, and Han as alternate universe versions of the characters from the CT. Han is somewhat like ROTJ Han in TFA, but, still, different. No blame for Harrison Ford. And Luke and Leia are, well, I can't say they are cool like they were as kids. It's not an ageism. Lol. It's because the writers and directors don't know the characters. George Lucas and EU writers be like, "Whaaa?" I had a mixed opinion of Lucas, and I'm sorry for coming off as a prequel basher or Lucas basher in the past. The man ain't perfect, but his company held together a bunch of different ideas. We did not have a civil war in our fan base of this magnitude over the prequels. It was rough and cray cray, to be sure, but enough of us could agree to disagree. Personally, I think what Disney should do is just adapt some Legends material for Netflix. For example: Seeing Quinlan Vos, the Mandalorian Wars, Nomi Sunrider, and Darth Zannah kicking Darth Bane's posterior would cheer up a lot of people. Just sayin'.

 

I like the idea of Leia as an inverted Chancellor Palpatine. Instead of being secretly skilled in the ways of the Force, she’s known for having received Jedi training by her brother and being one of the most gifted Force users in the galaxy.
Instead of seeking political power for herself, she accepts her appointment as Supreme Chancellor because it enables her to help more people.
Instead of remaining in office after her term has expired, she willingly steps down and, perhaps, focuses more on completing her Jedi training (Maybe the public revelation that Vader was her father causes her to leave the political arena for a while).

That would’ve made sense for her.

 

Yes, it would. Gotta love Leia.

Also, one problem with the First Order is we don't know what their ideology is.


It really seems like they are not using talented actors for Ren, Hux, and Phasma properly. Kylo Ren isn't interesting, but Adam Driver makes him interesting off the back of his talent. However, I honestly think that if they had cast the actor who played young Hannibal in Rising, he would have been a better Ren.

Yeah, I think we'll look back at TLJ as a failure. Rian Johnson should not direct Star Wars films. Maybe Ep. 9 will be good, but even if it's as good as 7, I have a feeling we'll look back at this trilogy as a rather bizarre outing. They may well make another trilogy to make up for this.

 

I have little doubt actually that VIII will benefit from IX retroactively in the same manner that ROTJ helped the bleak setbacks in TESB feel less bleak and the complications more eventful and with more hints at where ROTJ would eventually land.

It has several things going for it that give it this chance.

1) It functions almost textbook as a large second act and those experiences always benefit from the happier endings later. https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/pixar/storytelling/story-structure/v/video-4-structure

2) Its 5 most popular issues (Luke’s handling, Rey’s lack of lineage, unrelentingly bleak mistakes and setbacks from all, controversy surrounding Reylo, the highly vocal feedback of the most politically engaged people from both ends of the political spectrum on social media, and some frustrations over plot logic) should soften with time and a decent ending from IX.

How? Audiences spending more time with wise, pleasant Crait Luke for a movie and having a scene where Rey acknowledges her mistake in leaving him behind for Ben and his regret for not working with her more clears the slate between them and could setup a more rewarding master & apprentice relationship that many wanted previously. Experiencing this after and showing us Luke truly with renewed peace & purpose and being happier could take some of the salt out of some fans mouths. Not all of them of course. Certainly not some of you here but I do truly beleive it will go a long way for those who are somewhere between where some of you are and where someone like me is with his arc. That would be progress for the entire ST and make his “Jake phase” feel briefer and like his big setback in life before rebounding.

I also think we will learn that what Kylo Ren said about her lineage isn’t all there is to it from a certain point of view and that when we learn who her grandfather really was we will look back at many moments in TFA & TLJ differently.

I think we will see that VIII was he closest things get for Reylo in terms of physical intamacy. I think it’s possible they feel like allies in the end and that he makes a sacrifice in the end for her but I don’t see Disney or J.J. having to answer too many questions about promoting abusice relationships because I just don’t think they will be a romantic couple in the end. At most, there may be an air of “Had some things gone differently in our lives maybe there could have been something between us but it just wasn’t meant to be.” More of a tragic “what if?” that would lead some to wonder if in an alternate dimension somehow he did get help sooner and those two did find each other without him so messed up.

IX will build on the complications & lessons that each of the characters experienced or learned from VIII so those setbacks and the lessons learned over the final 40 minutes of TLJ for all will be rewarded in IX. Making them feel more valuable.

Due to Reylo not happening and due to some stronger endings that I suspect will present Rey, Finn and others in a more favorable manner, and an improved Poe who’s a better leader, I think some of the concerns people have about the perceived setbacks and regressions and sidelining will feel more temporary and purposeful and less like the end game they feel like to some now but instead just some stepping stones toward eventual victory. I’ve said the same thing before about Infinity War & how bleak & depressing it seems by the end and how the next movie will almost certainly have someone bringing many of those characters back to life and showing Thanos losing badly. When that happens that shot of Thanos is the sun will feel temporary and you’ll want to pop in the next one to see how the heroes make such a big comeback after that.

There’s also the youth factor combining with the critical acclaim factor. The PT hasn’t changed but the people who are now on the internet to talk about it that were kids back then and loving it have. Any time a new wave of young fans who were at that impressionable 8-13 age range for Star Wars gets older and more active online there’s a boost to the property they grew up with. My demo were the generation who did that for the OT when the internet first came of age and it was my demo who blasted Lucas for the Special Editions and PT the most. Now I’ve seen the kids who grew up with the PT and value it’s creativity and tend to rank PT episodes above some OT episodes loathing the soft reboot nature of the ST. In time a new generation will rise who will prefer the ST to the other trilogies by being a greatest hits mix of both and because they experienced it first and thus found the older, original versions less afterward. This will happen for some in time. They’ll also find the critical acclaim and use it to support that the ST is good.

Within 10-15 years the ST will benefit from all of that, IMO.

 

It would be far more interesting and actually tie into the saga overall for sure but her unnatural progression could have been worked as well but since it wasn't then as of now there is really nothing. So instead of some kind of progression in her story it's really just...there.

Even if there is some kind of reveal that addresses some points I think that is all it can do and I don't see it likely at all that they will go that deep into it in the movies. There is no time to do so when it wasn't done over two movies particularly TLJ. TFA should have set a base premise to work from going forward but there was nothing.

So short of some distinct Skywalker connection of some sort i.e. being guided by Anakin's spirit then it's hard to see what can really add any core depth inside her story.

I think more likely it will be looked back on as what it is. A soft reboot/retro reset that didn't have a set direction outside of that and so doesn't have the complete interlock of character and story that I-VI has because that was all from one creative vision at it's base. Eventually there will be far more live-action movies and TV series by then and I think they will be largely lost. The Lucas saga will always be the progenitor base but this trilogy can't ever be a true part of that.

 

There is just too much left to fill in the gaps. Too many vague unanswered questions and characters without clear motivation. Just observe to how we all see basic plot points in TLJ differently. It's like we all saw different movies. Maybe they will answer all the questions in the next episode but I'm starting to feel like I'm watching Lost season 5. And I like Lost. (But not season 5)

 

Sometimes I wonder if IX could make TLJ retroactively better for me. It’s hard to imagine, though. Even when I come up with scenarios that explain things in a more coherent way from TLJ, it still doesn’t make me want to watch any of the Rey scenes, any of the Luke scenes, any of the Kylo scenes. It would be great if IX somehow proves that TLJ wasn’t Space Twilight, but it’s still full of boring Twilight-esque scenes with really nothing else redeeming. Luke’s stuff is all YA adults suck garbaggio. They can retcon it in IX or explain it so there’s a valid reason, but that still won’t make those scenes entertaining. Meanwhile, none of the bigger lore moves forward in any way at all. There’s just nothing there.

 

Even if Kylo turned into a werewolf? That might be kind of cool.

 

I think that unlikely. It might make more sense of it so that it's isn't as overtly vindictive to Rey, Ren, Luke and Snoke (plus everyone else!) in retrospect but the vindictiveness will still be there on the screen in those scenes.

More likely is that JJ will have a IX that will be fairly good like TFA was fairly good and the narrative of why wasn't the inital plan to have one vision oversee the entire trilogy? The chose your own adventure concept was ill-fated from the start unless there was an agreed upon basic plan to work from the start.

 

This is what I think, barring JJ pulling a rabbit with a unicorn horn out of a hat in IX. Eps I - VI tell one cohesive macro epic story that flows and can be easily summarized from start to finish. The ST doesn’t fit into that. It undoes it to reboot it more than continues it. The ST destroys the significance of the Chosen One prophesy, destroys the impressiveness of Sheev’s accomplishment, destroys the Skywalkers’ epic triumph over Sheev’s once-in-a-millennia style evil brilliance. The Arthurian-legend quality of SW exists in Lucas’ saga. The ST is something very different.

 

Just going to wait for either E10, RJ's new trilogy or the D&D series of movies to come out and make me appreciate the ST. Like the ST made me appreciate the PT and DNT/LOTF/FOTJ era more.

 

I've decided that nothing will diminish my love for the OT. I've cleared my mind of questions.

 

I wouldn't say that it "destroys" any of that within those stories themselves but it does within this trilogy to some degree or other. Not balance of the Force or Chosen One which really haven't been got into but Luke and the world building need to take over a galaxy.

That said if JJ turns the story so that Snoke was just a front for a Sidious wraith then even with the Force in balance this returned Sith Lord can use Anakin's grandson to upset the balance (which would lead to his Sauron-like rebirth). Since Anakin is now a Force spirit and can't end the Sith personally he has been working through Rey in some way being her unknown spirit guide.

That way the various threads of Lucas' story can tie into the ST. Luke could never defeat Sidious himself since he isn't the Chosen One and Anakin can't work against the Sith through him because he's a known factor. Luke was influenced to go completely off course in an "insidious" long term plan.

So the finale I would propose would be two-tiered. Rey vs Ren in the physical world while it's Anakin vs Sidious in the netherworld of the Force. Each draws strength from the other and for the Light to win Ben Solo has to return.

Now sure does that really tally with Lucas' story since Sith can't become Force "ghosts" ? No but in desperate times you have to stretch things. Sidious might be "dead" like Mother Talzin was at one point or just say he could become this intangible wraith character but once he did then he couldn't transform back (unless the Force was taken out of balance again). He would have no idea that Anakin still exists as a Force ghost because that is a power beyond Sith imagination so imagine his surprise when Anakin confronts him.

That way at least you tie the overall protagonist and antagonist into the ST ones to bring it all together.