Lit The Mara Jade quandary

Lately, there has been some debate about Mara Jade. After all, Timothy Zahn gave into fan pressure, and he depicted Mara and Luke winding up together. It was not as swift as later fans make it out to be. However, there has been a chorus of descent regarding her. Some have said she verbally abused Luke. I agree with that argument. On the other hand, I admire how she was willing to do anything to protect her son, Ben, before, during, and after his birth. It was an arduous task. Some people didn't like Ben as as character, but I think his relationship with Luke was one of the few redeeming qualities of the FOTJ series. (I don't hate that series like some do, but I think the overall story should have been done by different authors.)

My personal favorite female characters from Star Wars EU are obviously in this order:

1) The Dark Woman: Any'a Kuro

2) Nomi Sunrider, Grand Jedi Master of the ancient Jedi

3) Darth Zannah, second Lord of the Banite Sith Order

4) Satele Shan, Grand Jedi Master of the medieval Jedi

5) Darth Traya Kreia, Lord of Betrayal, and trainer of the Jedi Exile

6) Lumiya, Dark Lady of the Sith

Mara does not come up on that list. I like her fighting style, and I totally believe she has a 74% chance of beating someone like Darth Malgus in a fight. Those are fighting words, I know. Darth Caedus had to cheat to defeat her.

Now, this is not intended to be a bash Mara thread. Let's keep things civil and cordial. Let's go over the pros and cons. It has been said that Satele was a true Jedi because she put the order and justice above her own family. It is said that Nomi could never truly have a partner after she lost her husband because she had to put her Jedi-hood first, and indeed, she stripped Ulic Qel-Droma of his Force abilities, something she did not want to do, but that was what helped Ulic to learn from his mistakes in due time. Satele is obviously not a deep character, but the others are. As reprehensible as Lord Zannah, Lady Lumiya, and even Lord Traya are, they all have a point. They should not be blamed for their own traumas. Zannah survived child abuse and usurped her abuser's mantle, but she believed in his philosophy, which is the problem. Lumiya may or may not have meant everything she said when she wanted to perfect the galaxy and free it from war, but we all know she truly loathed and was envious of Mara and wanted to make Luke pay for what she saw as his shortcomings. Traya sincerely believed in what she was saying, but she was not Sith, not in her heart. She wanted to destroy the Force in order to make the galaxy better, and she meant it. Existentially, she had a point. The problem was that she manipulated people, abused them, looked down on mechanical beings, became the same as her oppressors, etc. I do think that she truly loved the Exile, Meetra, since she was willing to perish if Meetra supplanted her and carried her legacy. But Meetra chose not to do that.

So, yeah. Those are examples. Mara obviously appears in a lot of works. Is she better depending on who is writing her? Would it have been better if she and Luke never got together, and if she remained more an antihero than a main protagonist. Some on here have called he a red-shirt. I can see that. I wouldn't use that term, but I get what you mean. I think her power is greater than that label. But Force power does not always mean great character. At any rate, much like the debate I had about whether some characters were gay or not, let's try to remember that this is a civil debate, and there should be no mudslinging. I should like to hear both sides.

Have a blissful day.

SateleNovelist

 

Luke became a Jedi Knight because he put his family above true justice.

Because the idea they were ever in opposition was a failure of the Jedi Order.

Mara Jade is, btw, my favorite SW woman after Leia.

 

That is, as the kids say, not how any of this works.

 

I agree with EvanNova95's assessment of the matter. I believe Mara could have defeated any number of Sith, with the exceptions of Vader, Sidious, and Darth Krayt. Maybe Darth Zannah could conjure PTSD illusions, but I'm not sure.

 

I think the nature of writing means whoever will win will win regardless.

Mara Jade, though, is an assassin who was trained as a Jedi.

If she's fighting someone straight up then she's doing it wrong.

 

vs matchs are mostly always up to the writer . Example if there was ever a Official Dc / Dragon Ball crossover and we got superman vs goku. there fight would either end in a draw or it would depend on what company published it if it was Shonen jump then goku would win. if it was Dc then Superman would win .

 

has there?

did he?

did they?

has there?

have they??

like. what?

 

Verbal abuse? She just teased him like all people in relationships do.

 

Her teasing doesn't read well to today's hyper sensitive audience just like how theres been a real up roar whenever Selina Kyle does something teasting or flirty to bruce in tom king's batman people got mad when she beat taila in a sword fight then teased bruce about it as he got stabbed and taken out right at the star of it .

 

I think Mara was abusive, but I've always been in a tiny minority, and I'm not aware of any debate about it lately.

I never heard of it as Zahn giving in to fan pressure.

I saw the early signs in TTT, so I thought it was there from the beginning. There was the Mara-Lando detour, but Zahn got right to it in his very next full length novels in HoT that came out only a few years after TTT.

The premise for the character isn't necessarily broken, but the view Zahn developed of her was. Zahn's whitewashing of the character is what made her existence nonsense. Other writers also write her with no sense of awareness. IIRC Stackpole seemed to write her with at least some acceptance of the character's actual premise and what it actually entails.

But I've done this argument many times already, and I don't know if I have the energy to really do the work for it again.

 

Mara was a mother and she was a fighter.

Regarding Jacen-all other context aside I do believe he was justified in killing her-she attacked him with the intent to kill. He killed her in self defense so his prior and current activities aside was justified in what he did on Kavan.

Regarding the Evannova95 video-I personally disagreed with his verdict but that's just my opinion.

 

Maybe, but guys tease girls playfully all the time. I've seen it in middle school, high school, college and at the workplace. Why wouldn't it work for vice versa?

Can you give me an example of something "abusive" Mara said to Luke and I'll try and evaluate it to see if I think its truly offensive.

 

She called him farmboy-which I think was just gentle teasing though it could be interepreted that as her putting down his rural background.

 

Seriously? Farmboy was being abusive? Is this the level that we are now at? I weep for future relationships where everything that is said, pet names & every action is being scrutinised to the nth degree.

Abuse is a terrible thing. But people need to be able to properly understand the difference between a tease, especially a relationship tease, & abuse.

Example - Farmboy was nothing more than a pet tease that carried an enormous weight to their relationship. Every time Mara called Luke that, it carried the emotional weight of their whole relationship with it, & Luke knew how much she loved him.

An example of true abuse? I was on a tram watching a teenage couple. The girl regularly would ‘playfully’ slap the boy across the cheek & smile. She periodically also took the boy’s glasses and waved them in front of him as he tried to snatch them back. When the girl was not looking, the boy showed quick grimaces on his face - he didn’t like this.
The boy also, @ one point, was pinching the girl’s arm while looking away. I am pretty sure that he was unaware that he was doing it.
That relationship will become abusive unless they get a grip on these actions.

 

Remember we live in a post humour society

 

I don't think farmboy was abusive or a put down-I just said it could be interpreted that way.

 

Not sure if the accusation of verbal abuse is just because of the word farmboy. I think its just with Mara´s general behavior of constantly teasing/mocking/snarking at the people around her including Luke. I´m not sure if that´s really counts as verbal abuse but its hard to imagine that her and Luke doing that for years with Luke just takeing it. To me many of this rather vitriolic relationships we see in fiction seem a bit unrealistic in the long therm. I mean it makes for humorus banter between the two but not nessesary a realistic relationship.

 

That's just playful teasing.

 

The worst offenders in this category are Geralt and Yennefer from the Polish Witcher novels and the famous PC games. I read all the books--even Season of Storms--and played all the games.

The books and some fans try to build their "relationship" up by putting a strawman argument where Yen helps Ciri out of a jam that she herself caused (bringing Ciri to Thanedd) to show how she's really "better" than, say, Triss (or anyone), as if it magically sweeps all her other abusive behavior under the rug.

It's really an unhealthy relationship, but the books build them up to be the greatest couple ever. At least the games give you the option to have Geralt break up with Yen.

 

People can't take teasing or pet names these days or anything other then there real name or twitter/instagram/ Youtube handle People got triggered at a anime called darling in the franxx's cause the girl named 02's pet name for the guy named Hiro is "Darling". They also didn't like that 02 was her name. That she was called by just a number identification but all the characters in franxx had number or greek alphabet identification but hiro named everyone else actual names . theres shenanigans a foot and hiro met 02 as a child and name her Zero Tsū but Tsu means two in English so everyone though it was a true number identification. we learn that 02 is also called Nine iota by the members of her old squad and shows visual discomfert from being called that . So some of the haters of of Franxx's would call her that and her Fans would get pissed cause they conflated that 02's identity was more important to them then the actual show. Some of this is that people are getting so passionate about different causes that they are forgetting that its all bull**** in the end . It just goes to show that for some people tribalism and their identity is more important then actually having stable relationships with people and reality.

 

What debate has there been? Even if she is not perfect, isn't that a good thing? A lot of people in Star Wars are more then meets the eye. I do not mind reading about a character I love and seeing some traits that I would not want someone in my family to have, for example the verbal abuse thing. (Not sure what you are talking about here specifically, but even if it did happen not necessarily a bad thing.) I remember that time Ben Skywalker had a lot of controversy surrounding him because how he treated his darkside girlfriend, looked through her stuff, ect. I still love Ben, and even through reading that you could tell why Ben did what he did.

I think what I am trying to get at here is I do not understand why there is controversy (and have yet to see it prior to this thread). Just because something is not necessarily looked up upon in the real world does not mean it makes a character a bad person in the Star Wars universe. I think it can be fun to compare politics in the real world to those in the Star Wars universe, but I do not understand why Mara Jade would have controversy around her for acting like is claimed here. (Or doing things like, ohh I don't know, trying to kill her future husband.)

 

The thing with Geralt and Yen is though that the romance is protrayed as somewhat destructive. Other characters in universe remark on that, even wondering if Yenever really loves Geralt or just uses his feelings to manipulate him. Also Geralt and Yen get into fights several times when their personalities clash. And during their breakups both date other people. Yes they return allways to each other but can´t really stay together for an extended period of time.

Luke and Mara on the other hand is potrayed as a largley loving and strong relationship. Apparently Luke has no problem being constantly teased about everything, all day. We never have a moment where Luke has just enough of Mara´s snark, or something in that regard. Its allways presented as a heatly and great love.

 

I think this was down to Bantam rushing Luke/Mara at the last minute, when it was obvious that they were toying around with having Luke be with Gaeriel Captison, Callista, etc. Zahn demanded that Luke marry Mara if Bantam wanted him back to write Hand of Thrawn (don't have a link, but I'm positive I read this somewhere possibly in an issue of SW Insider. Zahn demanded the Imperial war against the NR end and Luke marry Mara. Bantam was ok with the former but Zahn twisted their arm on the latter as they were relectuant).

So Luke and Mara never got the development needed where they became compatible with one another. Zahn hastily wrote it in with the characters more or less as they were established in the Thrawn Trilogy, and we ended up with the bizarre mismatch that followed.

 

Yennifer and Geralt's relationship is a somewhat "realistic" portrayal of a toxic relationship. I think the idea Mara and Luke's relationship EVER approached that level once they started dating (which they never did) is ridiculous. Their courtship consisted of one date after the events of the Thrawn Trilogy as well as their attempt to destroy the Hand of Thrawn (back when they thought it was a single base).

This is not what happened. Zahn asked if he could have Luke and Mara Jade marry and George Lucas approved it. I believe they actually talked about it on the phone. Luke's relationship with Callista and Gaeriel were already sunk ships. Callista was written out by Kevin J. Anderson because the Corellian Trilogy established Luke Skywalker wasn't in any relationship at the time and fan response to her had been tepid at best. Gaerial died in the Corellian Trilogy.

There's no mismatch because Mara matured into a responsible caring Jedi Master and lost the chip on her shoulder.

 

Only hasty because they went years without being married. Still took two books & a comic series to actually get them married, which really isn’t that hasty