ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I think you're right. I get the impression they're all ready to move on. Plus Disney/Lucasfilm's main focus seems to be prequels.

 

I mean at this point the FO has destroyed a whole star system. I suppose it’s possible the FO is keeping that information from its pilots similar to propaganda used by the Empire, but we haven’t seen any evidence of that. So I’m assuming the pilots know full well some of the atrocities the FO has committed and still are ok with serving it.

 

@Darth Chiznuk

I believe it serves her story. Her journey. Her growth. She contemplated killing him the minute she pulled for the saber. I wanted to see just, I dunno, maybe some acting or mumbling out loud why she'll wait till later. There was literally no time from teary Rey, to resolved to take her saber back and duel, to the Falcon on Crait. It was rushed and left out any agency for Rey.

She was going to duel the guy, and saber duels are typically to the death when possible, so I guess I wanted to see her character's resolve. Not rush to a climax for the film

And yes I'm with you, Hux pulling the blaster serves the story, and sets up a mystery box for IX. But for the sake of Rey's character maybe the scene should've been simultaneous with her escape, as in that's the reason she split and didn't do it - because Hux gives her a nod and pulls the blaster. Hell I don't know - I'm just trying to find a way that would justify showing something, anything that enriches her journey.

I'm actually struggling to see why or how people just give this opportunity to enrich Rey's character a pass.

 

... Another good reason Rey should have killed Space Hitler when given the opportunity.

 

How would convey any of that visually? Or is she going to have an inner monologue where she goes through all these different scenarios?

It really add nothing.

 

That’s your opinion quite frankly o think the scene of Hux and Kylo really adds nothing as it was quite clear in TFA that Hux hates Kylo and wants him dead so what does seeing that add absolutely nothing really.

 

Obviously it's my opinion.

 

Lol IOW, characterization is impossible, so it adds nothing.

Yet they did it with Hux without a word of dialogue. Show Rey approaching him. Have her look out the window. Show that she’s thinking of Kylo’s promise to kill the Resistance by having it as a voiceover as she moves toward him. Then she remembers Luke’s story almost killing sleeping Kylo, via voiceover, and she turns off the lightsaber. Perhaps she starts to restrain him using something from the room, but he stirs. The elevator starts rising toward the throne room. Panicked, she looks around for a solution, an escape, and sees the hatch to Snoke’s escape pod.

Or you know, it could be done in countless other ways too.

 

It was Rian's job to figure out how to show her decision making visually.



You could do a quick scene like this with Rey looking between Kylo and the escape route before Force pulling the broken saber and running out of there. You could do it between Kylo and his saber and have her waver between maybe killing him and leaving. You could have Hux and stormtroopers on their way to add pressure/time limit. Whatever. This isn't my job.

"My men are exceptionally trained...programmed from birth!"

They're programmed from birth. They get reconditioned when they show signs of non-conformity. I don't think they have enough agency to be okay or not okay with it. Finn was supposed to be a special exception.

 

The Jedi are going after the Sith in self-defence of themselves and others, but that does not mean that they would kill them once surrendered. It just so happens that when they confront the Sith they normally don't surrender so it normally ends in a battle to the death. If the Emperor, or Maul, had surrendered to the Jedi who confronted them the Jedi would not have simply killed them - that's clearly not the Jedi way. The only reason Mace even thought about killing Palpatine after he had 'surrendered' is because he had compromised the rule of law.

You may disagree personally but Anakin killing Dooku once surrendered and disarmed was against the Jedi way - the film says that explicitly in dialogue.

In the end the Sith are not destroyed by violent self-defence; they are destroyed by a Jedi throwing aside his weapon and essentially causing the Sith to destroy themselves.

 

Just a thought. But Luke could have spoke to her through the Force. Cementing some sort of bond or link between the two. Maybe she's about to strike him down...and hears Luke's voice in her head calling on her to refrain. Similar to how Ben once guided Luke...inner monologues do sort of happen in SW. lol. So it could fit. She also could have quietly whispered to sleeping Kylo 'something something' displaying characterization. Maybe she realizes that she's now in a similar place that Luke was at all those years back and makes a silent choice not to do this. Could have even been filmed the exact same way as the flashback. We can see some thinking, she looks down at the half of the lightsaber in her hand, some determination that maybe there's another way. And then she hoofs it out of there in time to go save her friends. Nice little capture of her choice right there... all done visually. And rather quickly. Where the movie doesn't just give up on Rey, because her choices are a foregone conclusion and it's not even worth watching anymore.

 

So... basically an inner monologue? Got it.

Yeah, that would be the first scene on the cutting room floor. It conveys nothing that we don't already know about Rey. We know she cares about her friends. We don't need a scene describing that in excruciating detail. RJ conveys her devotion to them much more economically with her returning to help them fight off the First Order and then the joyous reunion. All without the cheesy voiceovers.

 

TFA did it during her duel with Kylo. She thinks of Maz’s words about the force via a voiceover. Good point about Obi talking to Luke. I always felt I understood Vader’s change of heart in the throne room just because of his body language.

Yeah no. I don’t remotely agree, and I point to the above evidence from this specific franchise. Characterization of the protagonist is central to the story. That’s why we know so much about Luke’s emotions and motives during the OT. Hell thats why we were subjected to three different flashbacks of the same event with a lot of Kylo and Luke whining (sharing their inner monologues) to Rey. Characterization clearly isn’t a priority to you, but that’s not an objective truth of fiction.

 

Either way, the "I like this" moment needed cutting and the fact Rey is absent for most of the climax is a decision difficult to explain. In reality, Rey should have witnessed Luke's demise just as she had with Han Solo. On the other hand, Luke's force projection another inexplicable decision that substitutes his presence for a trick. Luke the trickster.

The more I think of it, it becomes apparent that Disney purchased a property that they, nor the new Lucasfilm creatives, understand.

"I fundamentally disagree with everything you wrote for my character" pretty much says it all, since Luke is a central figure in the mythology of Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker.

Yoda's portrayal is another glaring example. We meet Yoda in a swamp, among trees, teeming with life. Suddenly he's burning a tree that presumably speaks to Rey and burning ancient library ruins like the Taliban in Bamiyan and Isis in Nineveh and Palmyra.

 

I just want to add, it’s very interesting that a dialogue free moment of Hux contemplating and moving to kill Kylo didn’t end up cut. There’s room for characterization for Hux in the film, but such a scene is supposedly totally unnecessary for our (girl) protagonist. Interesting indeed...

RJ didn’t portray Rey’s devotion to her friends by conveying Rey carelessly leaving their murderer safe and sound despite having an opportunity to take him out. I know I wouldn’t do that with a wannabe murderer of people I care for. It’s not exactly a relatable choice in my judgment, and it doesn’t convey her affection for Kylo’s victims in the slightest. Coming after her moping and crying about “Ben’s” bad choices, it does convey the idea that she cares for “Ben” and doesn’t want to hurt him, though.

 

Haha, no. What I'm saying is the characterization you're asking for is there. It's just done much more effectively than your scenario.

 

Apparently we can't show Rey think about killing an unconscious Kylo...but we can show Hux, a completely irrelevant side character, think about killing Kylo. If we take the assumptive approach, we could assume Kylo would take Snoke's place. We didn't need to see the Supreme Leader scene. I could, and did, anticipate everything in that scene. So I guess that means we can skip it.

Escaping is a big thing in adventure movies. If an unconscious Kylo is boring, then have him awake, so we have something to watch.

Sad thing is, Rian could have had the Supreme Leader scene after showing Rey's escape. He could have had both. The Supreme Leader scene isn't actually about informing us how Rey escaped (that's a throwaway line), it's about Kylo taking over as Supreme Leader. That can still happen after she escapes.

 

My favorite moment of the OT is when Luke just disappears during the throne room duel and ends up back on Endor, happy as a clam. I mean, we all know he's going to turn out anyway, so it's so much better than actually seeing him potentially battle Vader, loose control, realize his mistake, throw away his saber and then get saved by his father all as the DS is about to be blown up. It's way better than seeing him actually drag out his father's dying body or finally seeing his face unmasked, realizing the pale damaged man underneath the dark facade. How boring would that be? It's better than seeing Luke go through the range of painful emotions having his saved father now die in his arms.

I'm glad that was all cut because we already know Luke was always going to turn out good, so it's boring to see it happen. Way more effective this way. The characterization is all there anyway.

This might seem snarky, and yeah, it kind it is, but it's essentially the argument those who think we don't need to see Rey struggle to make her choices on screen and arguing it works better to have them happen off screen. All you're doing is proving that Rey is so completely perfect that she can be cut from the climax of the movie and it doesn't matter to her characterization. She has literally no interesting choices to make or for us to watch unfold. She's a foregone conclusion and boring.

For me, I want to see those characterizations happen on screen. Not off. I want to see her struggle to come up with the right answer, or any answer for that matter. I want to see the difficulty in her choice. Even if fleeting. I want to see her deal with the consequences of her choices. I want to see the tension of her making quick decisions as her setting literally blows up around her. I want to see her escape.

Cutting Rey from the movie as such, means Rey largely doesn't matter. Her character is not important enough to watch.

 

It’s not there. You’re writing for the movie. There is nothing in the movie to show Rey didn’t leave Kylo alive just because she likes him and thinks she can save his soul later. One of the novels, I think the junior novelization, gave her that thought. There is zero in the movie to convey either way whether she even considered killing the main villain when the opportunity fell in her lap.

And your response has nothing to do with the fact that you said a scene that Hux got going to Rey instead would be automatically cut. Hux is more worthy of this scene than Rey. With Rey, it’s boring and no editor would see the value.

 

I agree that Rey should have had a moment where she considered killing Kylo.

But I really wish people would stop using this line of 'writing for the film' as if anything implied into the film is indicative of a deficiency on the films part, when that isn't necessarily the case.

 

As far as I’m aware they don’t have like inhibitor chips similar to the clones. So I take the ‘programmed from birth’ bit as just being raised and trained since birth. So in a sense brainwashed and it’s an incredibly difficult situation to overcome. I’m not trying to blame them for being stolen and raised by the FO.

But at some point individuals are also responsible for their actions. It’s likely Kylo is also being brainwashed or manipulated to some extent by Snoke. I would still hold Kylo accountable for his behavior and actions. Same with the tie pilots and anyone else with the FO.

I think Finn is an exception from the view that he is actually willing to carry out his desire to leave despite the risk. Not, he’s the only one to question the FO because of brainwashing or something.

 

If something isn’t in the film at all, it’s fine that you interpret that thing in the film, but it’s still not in the actual film. What else is the response to someone arguing that something that isn’t specifically conveyed is factually in the film? If someone says they know why Rey didn’t kill Kylo, that’s their interpretation, but it’s not a fact of TLJ because TLJ didn’t remotely tell us why she didn’t. That’s why no particular theory can be disproven.

 

My favoutite parts of TLJ so far have all been off screen, neither beem filmed, written nor tweeted.

 

If someone inferred why Rey didn't kill Kylo, based upon the character they saw in the film, then they validly got it from the film, and it shouldn't be dismissed because it wasn't explicit.