ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

I’m not dismissing any possible interpretation. I’m dismissing the idea that we know for a fact and therefore additional characterization wasn’t needed. Reylos could be right. Others could be right. Maybe Rey was blown right into the escape pod and was trapped. You can’t disprove it. Maybe she had an existential crisis where she considered killing him, and maybe she didn’t. We don’t know. To argue that we do know either way is, IMO, writing for the film.

 

No what I'm saying is that an editor would recognize that the scene with Rey doesn't move the story forward and that the relevant information is conveyed much more simply in the Hux scene. A scene which also includes the pivotal moment of Kylo taking over the First Order and ordering the troops down to Crait. One scene pushes the narrative forward toward the climax of the film while the other stops it.

I love all of those scenarios. I mean that. Just not for this film.

 

We know very little 'facts' about characters motivation, even when an event is shown on screen. These aren't novels. Implying a characters motivation is part of film storytelling. If someone doesn't need more information to imply a characters motivation they don't deserve to have their opinion derided just because you needed more information to infer it.

 

Kylo waking up after the explosion was deemed more important than Rey waking up after the explosion.

To add insult to injury to the Rey character, Rian Johnson said in the Balance of the force featurette that the 'everything they need' is in fact Broom Boy at the end, once again undercutting her character in the ending.

 

I went away to make a sandwich so I guess some of this has already been said.

Just like I wanted to see some actual suffering the way Luke suffered at the end of ESB, but nope she's having a blast the next time we see her.

This really does raise an interesting question. We're doing a lot of assuming here, because that's how the ST works.

Why would she leave Kylo alive? She slams the door on him at the end. So what's left? What are her options? She has to kill him. Kylo is not just a boyfriend she can dump and move on with her life. He's not just going to go away. I guess they're leaving yet another opportunity for Kylo to be redeemed (he's already had two), but damn, she had her chance to end him as a threat. It just seems like punting. Seems like obvious stalling.

Great post. It happens because we're basically just copying the OT and stalling. That's the reason.

Good ideas. I like tying it back in to Luke standing over Kylo. You could have Rey take the same saber stance Luke did and show it from the same camera angle. Maybe you could try to get Daisy to put on one of Adam's snarling Kylo rage faces.

 

I’m not deriding anyone’s opinion. My post was very specific. We do not know for sure why Rey didn’t kill Kylo. Her motivation in making a decision either way was not depicted in the movie. That it wasn’t depicted in the movie is a fact.

 

And the person you're discussing it with simply said they could already imply it from her established character. That isn't writing for the film.

I mean imagine if someone said everytime another brought up Rey and Kylo having romantic interests was 'writing for the film'. It wasn't established as a fact in the film. It was an interpretation.

I would have liked to see Rey's moment of indecision. But we really must stop dismissing interpretations of the film as someone writing for the film. Their interpretations are based upon the film.

 

I personally would have liked to see Rey deciding what to do with Kylo. We know she cares about her friends but who are her friends? Finn, okay yeah she has known him for 6 days but sure. Chewy, more tenuous but okay and is he in danger? We don’t know. We actually have no idea where he is in the climax of the supremacy. Other than that leia maybe? I mean she might have spent 24 hours with leia at this point. Who else would be her friend? Bb8 or maz. Beyond that we’re really really stretching and she spent no more than 6 hours with Maz.

I keep thinking back to the scene in return where Luke pilots the shuttle out of the DS2 and breathes a sigh of relief as the DS blows up. I mean Lucas could have left him just boarding the shuttle but I think that scene adds to Luke. He hasn’t given up even though his father is dead, he wants to live on and be reunited. He doesn’t say a word and yet the scene says a lot about him. I contrast that with Rey and just throw up my hands. Heck now I contrast that with Luke who goes to die and really feel bad

I still don’t know what motivates Rey and I like ridleys acting in TFA and found the character intriguing. Is it her friends that she has known for a week, is it becoming a jedi (she didn’t seem to care about that a week ago), is it Kylo, is it the resistance she has known a week, is it finding who her parents are, is it learning her past. Am I the only one who doesn’t know what her main driving reason to exist is?


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The person said nothing more was needed because it’s already in the film. That’s taking it further than just “this is my interpretation.” That it’s per se enough and nothing more is even needed when factually the film doesn’t actually depict any specific motives is going to draw the factual response from me. This thing isn’t shown anywhere in the movie, therefore if they wanted to show a thing specifically, yeah, more was needed. If they wanted to leave it ambiguous, not showing the specific thing is fine.

Also, critics of TLJ are constantly criticized for being too attached to “head canon.” That can’t only a weapon against critics. Are we supposed to try and fill in the blanks or not?

Interpretations are not canon. I interpreted many things in TFA very differently from RJ. But they were just interpretations. I couldn’t prove my interpretations were right. I knew they needed to be confirmed in VIII either way because nothing was certain. In hindsight, and shoot even at time, I thought the mystery boxes were the problem and things shouldn’t have been so ambiguous because the story wasn’t clear. People spend so much time writing for this trilogy that what it actually is depicting gets totally lost.

 

I'm completely lost now. Probably my fault. Let me get back to what I was actually saying.

The destination you want the character to reach isn't the one the film is building toward and therefore doesn't actually fit in the story being told. Everything Rey does in the film leads to this moment...



Following this up with Rey succumbing to the dark side (even briefly) and contemplating killing Kylo would be like following up Luke's decision to jump off the platform to his death rather than join Vader in ESB with Luke flying into a dark side rage and nearly killing his father in the same movie. You wouldn't do that because it completely undermines Luke jumping to his imminent death. That's why that scene is in ROTJ and not ESB.

 

I...can’t. I’m done.

Very good question. Finn and...yeah, maybe Chewie. BB 8. Which is why they have to use this nonsense with Kylo to get their Empire moment. Whereas when Luke asks “will they die?” we know what Han and Leia mean to him.

 

Apparently we can only judge a movie strictly upon what it depicts, not how we interpret it or what we believed it implies. When someone says they got x, y and z out of the film typically that's engaged with as a valid interpretation of film, rather than being dismissed as 'writing for the film'.

Films arent just what they explicitly depict on the screen. They are also what we take from them and what we read into them. Blade Runner would be an absolute nonsensical piece of film if it weren't for what we read into it. Is that writing for Ridley Scott? Did he need to explicitly tell us everything that was happening? Interpretations are part of the film.

 

Serious question.

What is this moment and what does it mean to you?

 

She looks like she has regular dental check ups.

 

In a big picture sense, yes. She could still at some point try to turn Kylo all the way back. Now that he's out of Snoke's influence her & Leia should have a far better shot at that. What I mean is her mission in this instance is concluded. She had the massive win of Kylo eliminating Snoke - the leader of the FO & Kylo's own master & manipulator. The ship is falling apart & the Resistance is in trouble. Clearly time to leave.

No defence needed since no one can establish that she'd have any interest in attacking an unconscious Kylo Ren.

So in other words it's optional & not worth arguing about. They could show her grabbing the saber as she runs to Snoke's ship & takes off, or they can save time & just mention it. It comes down to preference.

To you boring. To me, many others & R.Johnson - efficient. Clearly she just got out of there in a straightforward non-dramatic way. No need to show it. Not every single event has to be melodramatic. You could also show it in a quick scene & that could be ok too.

I might skip your class thanks. Not a fan of condescending teachers.

Bcs it's laughable that she'd drive a lightsaber through his head as he's laying there unconscious. After everything that's happened in the past 30 mins, including the fact that she believes he can be turned, that he was to some degree a victim of a misunderstanding years earlier that was partially Luke's fault, that he did in fact take out Snoke & save her life, & that now they finally have him out of Snoke's clutches & have a real chance of bringing him back at some point. Since it's that ludicrous & far-fetched that she'd kill him it would be an eye-rolling joke of a scene with a far too obvious conclusion. A waste of time, IMO.

 

TLJ was the greatest headcanon Star Wars movie of all time.

 

It's the moment she finally stops denying her painful past and fully accepts who she really is. It's the moment when she realizes that a name or a bloodline isn't what makes one a hero. It's what one does that defines who they are. It's the moment she takes her destiny into her own hands.

To me it's an incredibly empowering moment. I'm a fan of the Skywalker's as much as the next person but for this final trilogy in the saga I love being able to follow this outsider as she steps into this world. A girl who has literally grown up in ruins of the Skywalker Saga finds herself right in the middle of it and comes to realize that she too can be a hero like Luke Skywalker. I think that's a beautiful denouement for the story.

 

You’re right that everyone can come up with his or her own interpretation of why Rey just left Kylo with the lightsaber attached to his belt and just left without doing something. And you’re right that no interpretation can be dismissed as wrong, because we really have no idea what Rey was thinking. The film doesn’t give us a definitive answer. Many of us think that’s problematic. Rey was supposed to be the heroine in this story; the main character; the FOCUS of this story. This is supposed to be REY’S story. That’s what everyone keeps saying. However, if this is truly Rey’s story, WHY don’t we know why rey left Kylo there? Why don’t we know what she is thinking? Why do we know so little about Rey and her motivations ( and what we do know is sometimes changed) after two whole films in which Rey is the protagonist? Why does she just disappear at an important point in the story? This does not seem to be good or satisfying writing.

 

You know, I notice this a lot. Anytime someone can't defend their position well enough, they pull out the "well, that's just your opinion...many others - including the director - don't agree with you" card.

Of course it's my opinion. Its obvious that the director wouldn't agree with my opinion since I'm judging this work critically. Just because you agree with the director doesn't make you any more correct. We are all stating options here. It doesn't need to be said over and over again, with each post "well, in my opinion XYZ". This is why I post as DarkGingerJedi and not as Movie Jesus, lord of all things movies. This is why I state my complains here, and not in the "The Last Jedi is infallible' tread. You don't see me over there telling people, 'well this is just your opinion'.

if you're truly happy with the main characters disappearing during the climax of the movie, cool. Enjoy the movie. If you're happy with the movie telling and not showing, awesome. Go watch it again. If you're happy seeing 'straight-forward, no drama' during the climax of the film with a character who has been dealt a tremendous amount of emotional distress over 18 hours, or hell, a week...cool. I'm glad you like the movie. I envy you. But I'm here stating why it doesn't work for me. I'm stating why I want more for my buck. I'm stating why I want to see more drama from these characters than I think it received. I'm stating ways how it would work better for me. And frankly, I don't need you or anyone else to come in here and say, repeatedly, well your opinion is worthless because you happen have supposedly unpopular opinion, one not shared by you or the almighty 'director'. As if you've just proven me wrong.

 

The only hand touching I want to see is what happens between Laurie Strode/Cynthia Myers and Michael Myers at the end of Halloween H20. Bet y'all gonna have a grand time looking that one up. :^)

 

Yes and it's a perfectly reasonable to want that. I wanted that in the film. But at the same time when someone says that they didn't need it shown and easily interpreted it into the film, their position shouldn't be dismissed as 'headcanon' or 'not being in the film'. Films aren't just what is in screen. They are also what what is shown on screen makes us interpret, imply and feel.

 

No Rey's arc is simply over by the time we get to Crait. It's similar in that way to The Shawshank Redemption where after Andy's arc is complete we follow Red as he completes his and the two are reunited at the end. It's still Andy's story. He's still the main character. Just because he goes away for a little bit doesn't change that.

And this isn't Luke's film. He's simply a major character whose story needs closure by the end of the narrative.

Her story is one of self discovery. She's trying to find out who she is after a life lived in stasis for so long. She's trying to find out what her place is in this conflict. Her greatest character flaw is self doubt. Like Luke trying to lift the X-Wing out of the swamp she doesn't really believe she can do what she knows deep down is going to be required of her. She thinks she'll find answers with Luke but in reality she really just wants to pass the responsibility on to him. She wants him to be the Luke of old. The one she's heard about in legends. But he isn't the Luke of old.

"I can't be who she needs me to be."

This isn't the man she thought she would find. He doesn't have the answers she's looking for. The first set back. So how does Rey respond to this set back? If Luke won't train her as a Jedi then she'll try to train herself as best she can. It's such a minor scene but it's so important to her development. She's taking initiative instead of waiting on Luke. Someone is going to have to confront Kylo Ren so if Luke won't she'll need to be prepared herself. She's taken her first step into a larger world. This little incremental step forward is immediately followed by... set back number two. Luke tells her that the Jedi are responsible for their own fall. That they allowed Palpatine to rise to power and wipe them out. Rey doesn't want to believe that's true but Luke assures her it is. He then talks about his own failure with Kylo but crucially leaves out an important piece of information that he's ashamed to admit. Rey is left with an incomplete story which will have devastating consequences but the scene ends on a hopeful note as she confidently assures him that she won't fail him the way Kylo did. It's another important step forward for Rey as she begins to shed some of her self doubt.

When we return to Rey we have the linchpin of Rey's arc. This third set back is a doozy. Kylo Ren tells her that Luke is responsible for his fall. That he tried to kill him. Kylo gets to tell Rey the full story before Luke has a chance to explain himself and of course he paints Luke in the worst possible light. Luke leaving this out is so crucial because it helps deteriorate her trust in him and further degrades their relationship just as it was beginning to turn around. Of course Rey doesn't want to believe it but the brilliant thing about it is that this ties into what Luke himself was telling her earlier. If the Jedi Order was responsible for their own fall and Obi-Wan was responsible for Darth Vader's turn to the dark side then she can't simply dismiss the possibility that Luke himself is responsible for Kylo Ren. From her perspective he certainly isn't the man she thought he was. Another crucial bit of characterization here is that Rey still can't admit the truth to herself about her parents. She's still holding onto the hope that they didn't really leave her even though she does know the truth. This leads to the mirror cave where she completely fails to find the answers she's looking for. Another important step in her arc as it leaves her emotionally raw and vulnerable. It's the perfect time for Kylo to reach out to her and assure her that she isn't alone in her disillusionment with Luke Skywalker. That's all that's needed for Rey's compassion to override what her instincts tell her about Kylo Ren. Maybe he isn't totally lost. If Vader could be turned why not him? Her vision of Kylo turning against Snoke and Luke's confession that Kylo wasn't totally lying just seals the deal. She's lost all trust in Luke and sees Kylo as the only available avanue for her.

Fast forward to the throne room scene... Kylo kills Snoke and saves her life but doubles down on the dark side. Not only that but he tries to define who she is himself.

"You don't belong in this story. You come from nothing. You're nothing."

This is Rey's moment of truth. He's giving her the answers she's been looking for (really he's forcing her to confront the truth she's always known) and offering her what she's been desperately searching for. Belonging. An identity. A purpose. Ruling with him. She's nothing without him. And she rejects that nonsense! She already has a belonging. With her friends. With her family. In this moment she finally accepts who she is. She's Rey and it doesn't matter who her parents were because she's a hero.

"I will not be the last Jedi."

She's a JEDI! Let's remember Yoda's wise words to Luke in ESB:

"I don't... I don't believe it."

"That is why you fail."

RJ is brilliantly calling back to this scene to show just how much Rey has grown. From someone who is scared of her new found powers and uncertain about her destiny to someone who is fully committed and confident enough to lift those boulders with ease.

From...


To...


Oh yes she has an arc!

Rey's arc in TLJ is completely different from her arc in TFA. Although like a good sequel TLJ builds on her arc from the previous film.

TFA is American Graffiti. It's about a girl who has to leave her home even though that scares her. It's about leaving the past behind her and moving forward with her life. Like American Graffiti though that's where it leaves us. With her accepting that she can't go back and taking that first brave step forward into a new world. Whereas like I said TLJ is about her figuring out her place in the world and who she really is.

 

That wasn't my point. It was that efficiency would've been the reason for not including that scene. Once it was decided that nothing notable was to happen as she flees then the scene became expendable.

How much time do you have?

- She's not a cold-blooded killer who'd attack an unarmed unconscious person, no matter who they are.
- Kylo just saved her life.
- She can see that the Resistance is in serious trouble & her only priority is getting away so she can help them - which she does. She saves them all in fact. Bcs she didn't let herself get caught the Resistance was saved.
- Killing Kylo wouldn't do a thing to stop the attack that's already underway against the Resistance ships.
- Messing around with Kylo, trying to get his saber off his belt to murder him etc risks waking him. Where he could attack her, or call for troops or at the very least order Snoke's ship be locked down. Or shot down if she does still get away in it. Either way she won't be able to help her comrades, which turns out to be quite important. Her only chance of getting away to help her cause is to do so quickly & quietly, without alerting anyone. Including Kylo.
- She believes that Ben Solo can be turned back to save their cause. She already saw a key part of her premonition come true when Kylo turned against Snoke. How could she now ignore the rest of it that she's seen?
- Kylo is Leia's son. She's not going to murder him as he lay there unconscious & then have to tell his mother later that day.
- Likewise she wouldn't relish the idea of telling Luke, who she knows is already wracked with guilt about almost doing something similar years earlier.
- Kylo, now free of Snoke's manipulation may be better left in a leadership position with the FO. The Resistance & Republic are now hopelessly outmatched. If Hux or some admiral take the reigns of the FO then what hope does the Resistance have in a military fight? However if she & Leia can turn Ben at a later timer he could "turn the tide" as she eluded to earlier. Ben Solo killing his evil master could be the first major step towards that goal. Murdering him now squanders that chance, & leaves them facing a FO with a traditional military commander who they have no inroads with.

Then there are all of the narrative reasons:

- It's plain stupid for her to kill him after Rey has been setup to believe that Kylo can be turned back.
- & setup to be a decent person who's unlikely to kill an unarmed unconscious opponent.
- She reacts with horror at Luke's reveal of that past incident, & then does the same thing only this time follows through on it? Ridiculous.
- What is the finale of the movie if Kylo is dead? Just the Crait battle & that's it? Maybe inter-cut with a verbal showdown between Poe & Hux? What does Luke do? Any reason for him to show up now?

Honestly there's another dozen reasons why Rey killing Kylo is an abysmal idea. Trying to capture him involves many of the same issues as above, with a bunch of added logistical problems that would lead to comedy more at home in a Spaceballs movie.

 

Scenes that don't move the story forward and were still included in the film:
- Jake drinking green milk and spilling most of it all over his beard
- Chewbacca not devouring the delicious barbecued Porg out of guilt
- Rey almost killing a couple of silly beings on Ahch-To by accident

And one more.... that I can't put my head around.... which one would it be... oh yeah. It's not a scene. It's an entire arc of the movie. It's literally more than 20% of the movie in screen time. The ridiculous mission to Canto Bight which serves no purpose at all in the movie at the end of the day. Unless the purpose of the movie was to show that the heroes tried a bunch of things that didn't work. I guess that would be consistent with Rian Johnson, as he also tried a bunch of stuff and nothing worked.

I definitely agree that all these scenarios which @godisawesome came up with do not fit in this film. They would actually add depth to a character.