ST ST Criticism Discussion Thread

Yes, you are right that it’s VERY unpleasant to sit through. But not because it’s a gloomy film, or sad like ROTS.

It’s unpleasant because it just isn’t good enough. Entirely bereft of grandeur, gravitas and any coherence.

ROTS is better because it’s a sad third part of a bigger story, that although wasn’t great, was a story that each prequel tried to carry forward. TLJ broke whatever story was set up in TFA and just did its own thing - the middle act, remember

Some say this is good, as it means IX can go wherever it wants. But that just hammers home the fact the TLJ is a waste of time as it doesn’t progress very much at all.

And that, among many other reasons, detailed elsewhere in these forums is why it’s hard to watch.

No story. No peril. No cliffhanger. No nothing (or very little).


I love my XP-38.

 

Was there music in TLJ? I really can’t remember!


I love my XP-38.

 

Yes the Force Theme was played 21 times. Rose & Holdo had new themes but the themes are as forgettable as the characters.

 

I'm so tired of the Force Theme.

 

you and I are very much on the same page re: our ideas about what the ST should have been about.

yes Luke would have trained a few but I also believe he would have been somewhat cautious - not wanting to repeat the mistakes of the past.

 

I think TLJ used more than any other in the Saga. It seems repetitive for JW unless there is a hidden reason behind it or maybe RJ just did not give JW enough to work with.

 

So I am almost done watching Mauler's critique of TLJ.

I honestly did not realize how many small problems there were in the script. Like how Finn can pilot ships now, despite needing a pilot in TFA. Again, the LFL storygroup and KK ultimately asleep at the wheel. And, to defend RJ a little bit, he really needed their help. At bottom it is not ultimately his responsibility to ensure overall story consistency.

But I had also not really thought about the many problems with how RJ wrote space battles and how that writing breaks many of the rules of space battles already established in the saga. Good grief.

 

Hi, I was being sarcastic - I know there was music, but like the film, I’m trying to forget everything to do with TLJ


I love my XP-38.

 

I think he was aware of that.

 

The last piece of it is the best. I just watched his TFA critique but I skipped through all the argument with other YTubers segment. I'm looking forward to the rest.

So Han doesn't get his own theme until that movie...anyway. Also, the only piece of music I remembered from the movie was the reuse of the "TIE Fighter Attack" one more time as Chewie in his new CGI looking form is flying the Falcon through the mines in the rip...er, homage to ROTJ.

 

@PendragonM and JJ had already ripped that off in TFA anyway when Rey flew the Falcon threw the wrecked SSD.

And then in Solo we have another gunport sequence in the Kessel Run.

 

I love the Force Theme, it is a beautiful piece of music. But its effect is still greatest when used sparingly over scenes that deserve the gravitas. Not just scenes willy nilly.

John Williams talent of course is beyond question but the ST is just a letdown music-wise. Rey`s theme is fine. And that is the only theme that is even memorable.

 

The summation of TLJ being unpleasant to sit through nails it for me at least. I’ve never felt that way about anything in the SW universe. AotC was previously my least favorite SW entry, but watching it never made me miserable. I just preferred other movies, but still watched it a handful of times over the years. SW is my favorite background tv for cleaning or doing some other project at home. After months of TLJ being on Netflix, I finally decided to try and give it a second chance to see if it could serve that purpose for me, but how does it start? The Resistance is almost totally wiped out while the characters joke, and Luke throws the lightsaber like it’s a bag of dogpoo and Rey is obnoxious while relating the fact that the galaxy has basically already fallen to the FO.

I think I kept it on for 15-20 mins. There is just nothing pleasant about it, with the exception of the actress playing Rose’s sister. Ignoring the rest of that battle, her little intro had real potential, if only there was a quick scene establishing her and Rose’s relationship, it would have been perfect.

But otherwise, immediately we’re hit with what failures the OT3 are, that the film is dancing on the grave of RotJ’s happy ending, and not one single character that I loved in TFA is remotely likable. The world building is unpleasant (there’s that word again) as Rey treats the AhchTu nuns like nuisances, Chewie doesn’t even respect Luke’s privacy when he blows open the door on a hut that doesn’t belong to him, oh and then Finn’s big finale is reduced to a squirting water-while-naked gag. OMG almost everything about this miserable movie is the opposite of a good time to me lol. In this context, making these dumb characters repeat the word “hope” really cannot compensate for the fact that they have no hope and they all are just running for their lives. They’re not fighting any war.

 

AOTC was just dreadfully boring for me personally, and it was cringey listening to the "romantic dialogue." But it doesn't make me flat-out angry like TLJ does.

 

It’s all cool here.

Thanks guys


I love my XP-38.

 

I feel the same. AOTC was fine apart from the love but. The battles at the end were really good.


I love my XP-38.

 

Uh the lightsaber duel was the weakest in the series so far for me personally. Ironically the fight in TLJ was the second-weakest imo.

 

And then doesn't even bother to drag Luke to the Falcon so they could leave because, hey, y'know, it's not like the Resistance is under attack or anything...

 

They don’t know the Resistance is under attack though. For some reason I can’t quite put my finger on, though I have guesses, RJ felt it was very necessary to emphasize Chewie and Rey’s inability to communicate with the Resistance. I suppose one could conclude from that inability to communicate that they’re under attack, but Rey didn’t seem particularly worried. She just told Chewie to keep trying, like it was more of an environmental problem. She didn’t rush back to Luke and tell him something is wrong with their friends.

I actually think I might put the TLJ lightsaber battle below AotC. The TLJ one bothers me so much for having no plot stakes, plus I think it’s ugly. On both of those fronts, AotC wins. Dooku wasn’t the most dynamic villain, but he beats a handful of nameless, faceless cardboard cutouts no one in film or out will ever give a second thought to. Plus, he did his job and destroyed our protagonist.

 

But she does say the First Order is about to take over. I mean, it's not like Luke has the Force - Leia should have been there with her Poe stun gun...

Rey and Chewie are basically useless at convincing Luke. You'd think Chewie at least would be yelling at Luke about Han's death. Oh, wait, I forgot, only Rey can communicate with Chewie and Chewie doesn't care about his 40 year friend's death after about five minutes...

 

I didn’t want Chewie yelling at Luke any more than I liked Rey doing it. I was ticked off that he destroyed a hut to try and intimadate his old friend. It reminds me of Luke visiting Yoda and being impatient and demanding. Only there, Yoda tried to teach him not to be a brat. It’s like TLJ wants me to root for Chewie and Rey to be brats. I don’t. Their behavior made me root for Luke, who I basically can’t stand in the movie. Really the Ahch Tu nuns are the most likeable inhabitants of that island world, and the best scene in the film of Chewie and R2 hanging with them joyfully got cut.

Also, the FO taking over the galaxy doesn’t mean they’ve found the Resistance. Rey has every reason to think they’re successfully in hiding, just like the Rebellion did.

 

Ah, well, I'm on the other side of this. The whole objective of the mission is to get Luke. They fail spectacularily, so he can die on his rock. For me, Chewie should have just thrown Luke over his shoulder and carried him down (what, we've already had sitcom level humor, why not?). Chewie is a mess - he doesn't get Luke, he sends Rey to Kylo - what in hell happened to him? Plus he lets those stupid porgs intimidate them and he lets them stay on the Falcon. It's craziness.

 

I have to put the AotC fight above TLJ as well. At least in AotC it was an actual lightsaber duel. Anakin using two lightsabers for the first time and in the dark, Anakin lost his arm, Yoda shows up and even though I do think his flips were a bit overdone, he and Dooku both used the force.

ETA: George created this mystical power for his universe and I want to see it in action. Not going to apologize for that.

 

This all seems very anti-Jedi. I could imagine a silly scene of Chewie doing what you’re describing, but take out the hut blast and emphasize Chewie and Luke’s friendship before and after. And, Yoda-like lessons about patience were a must.

 

The AOTC duel is the weakest of the trilogy, but I think it's far from the worst. ANH still will hold that for me. Plus I wasn't a fan of TFA duels which looked amateurish at best. TFA was still better than TLJ tho. If only Luke was actually on Crait.

At least the AOTC duel has double bladed sword-fighting, Yoda's absorbing powers, and the Obi-Wan section of the duel is really well shot. I can understand not liking the "close-up" fight of Anakin, but at least that's intentional. And there's very little cutting to other sections.

That's a main reason beyond the emotional part, I also don't like the ROTJ duel. Too much fast paced close ups in the beginning and the duel gets cut off too much to focus on the Endor battle.