CT Analyzing Luke with Yoda in Empire Strikes Back

I'm re-watching Empire and a couple things came to mind regarding Luke's training with Yoda.

First, when Luke asks if the dark side is stronger, he sounded tempted to me at that moment. I never noticed that before. He says "Vader" and then asks if the dark side is stronger and he seems both awed, afraid and also a little enamored and maybe a little tempted.

Another question is something I've pondered for a while. When Luke has his visions of Han and Leia being tortured and Yoda says, "Help them you could but you will destroy all for which they have fought and suffered", Luke gives a nod and looks like he's agreeing with Yoda. Only in the next scene he's prepping his X-wing to go save them. Did Luke change his mind or was that nod more of a resignation? Like I know I will be destroying all that they have fought and suffered for but I'm going anyway?

 

Luke was both fearful of Vader and tempted. He may not want to admit that.

Luke was willing to accept what Yoda said in that moment. But, as he said, he "couldn't get the vision" out of his head. He felt compelled to help them.

 

But Yoda's not completely correct. Luke doesn't destroy "all for which they have fought and suffered" by going to Bespin.

It sounds as if Yoda was more concerned about Luke's training than about anything that might happen to his friends. This was the first Jedi student he'd had in ages and he doesn't want to endanger that. But he shows some of the same short-sighted-ness that Obi-Wan has in ROTJ when counselling Luke to "bury his feelings" and confront his father with violence.

 

I always took Luke's nod as a "I get what you're saying but my mind's made up", like a kid being reminded of his curfew. One thing that always confused me was; if Leia is the other hope wouldn't they want to save her? She's not some random Rebel. Maybe they could make a teaching point with someone who wasn't the only other hope in the galaxy. ESB is my favorite film ever btw.

 

The beauty of the scene is that neither Yoda nor Luke is fully correct. Both are right and wrong in their own ways.

 

It was always a struggle for me to get my head around the Yoda vs Luke battle of philosophies.

Who was right, and what did it imply?
Were Yoda and Obi Wan wrong? Did that imply that the wider Jedi philosophy was also wrong?

That, as Luke wanted to do, sometimes you have to be proactive, violent, and jump in there with your lightsaber?

Sometimes I just choose to think that George and his fellow scriptwriters didn't entirely think out this Jedi thing.

 

It's the classic dilemma: Do the needs of the few outweigh the needs of the many OR do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one or the few?

If Luke goes to Bespin and joins Vader, then, of course, he will have destroyed "all for which they have fought and suffered" (i.e. for the Alliance to overcome the Empire).

But on the other hand he feels compelled to help his friends. Ultimately Luke makes his choice to go and help them. The Greek philosopher Aristotle (and teacher of Alexander the Great) had a rather down-to-earth attitude on this particular subject, feeling that it's rather understandable that we care less about the problems and the future of people we never meet or come to know while our friends and relatives come first.

 

I think that scene works so well just because there isn't a totally right and a totally wrong answer to their dilemma: both Luke and Yoda have their good reasons, they both want to do what is good, but they can't find a middle road. This complexity is very interesting!

 

Right. And Lucas altered the beginning of ROTJ because Kershner successfully won him over to the idea that Yoda wasn't entirely correct.

 

I agree, but I suppose as Yoda was rather a side story, his journey was not thought through very carefully.

Luke and Yoda's conversation was even more confusing after all we learned in the PT. Ultimately, why was Yoda sitting meditating immortality on a planet instead of helping the rebels? He would have been a force to be reckoned with. Luke does not seem to be concerned with this, but rather focuses on his friends. Yoda seems to have everything all wrong including his view that Luke saving Han and Leia would cause everything to unravel. He's wrong about Vader, about Luke, and his advice reflects that.

It is perhaps something that should have been expanded on in the PT. But this is just one of many little snafus of this sort. I don't really mind seeing the most wise Yoda being equally unwise at times.

 

Ben and Yoda likely believed that without any attempt to resurrect the Jedi -- and a superhero/Chosen One of their own, which is to say Luke, to pit against Darth Vader -- rebellion against the Empire was doomed to fail. A viewpoint which suggests they hadn't moved on from the Jedi order of the pre-Empire era.

 

What about Yoda's words in TLJ, though? Would it be fair to say that he's learnt even more since dying? The PT and the OT both proved that, although wise beyond measure, Yoda also wasn't perfect and did make mistakes. I think his TLJ appearance (which is a beautiful scene IMO) is a reflection of that.

 

I've been thinking about this a fair bit lately. I think the PT and OT together show quite a bit about a changing Jedi attitude towards aggression.

In TPM, Yoda warns Anakin about fear, anger and hate leading to suffering, but aggression is significantly not mentioned. And consider the mission that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were sent on. The Nemoidian claims that the Jedi are there to force a settlement. He's not impartial, but Qui-Gon also notes that the negotiations will be short due to the Trade Federation's cowardice. The Queen also remarks that she's been informed that the Jedi had "commanded" the Trade Federation to reach a settlement. And of course there's also Anakin's boast to Padme in AOTC about "aggressive negotiations."

So when Luke shows up at Jabba's palace to "bargain," and that bargaining turns out to be Luke telling Jabba to give Han back or suffer the consequences, that's a pretty old-school prequel era Jedi move. The Jedi concept of negotiation all too often seems to be "we're going to tell you how this will go, and you should listen to us if you don't want trouble from our Order on behalf of the Galactic Republic. By the way, have you seen our lightsabers?"

Of course, we know the fate that the prequel era Jedi met, so we know that it's a slightly older and somewhat wiser Yoda who tells Luke things like "wars not make one great", "your weapons, you will not need them", or "a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack". And of course he warns Luke not just about fear and anger, but also aggression itself leading to the dark side. Those aren't just bits of routine Jedi fortune cookie wisdom. That's Yoda speaking from his own personal experience with past mistakes.

I think when Yoda warns Luke "help them you could, but you would destroy all for which they have fought, and suffered" he's talking about more than just that one situation. He's warning Luke more generally against letting himself get enmeshed in the Rebellion. So when Luke does leave, he is eventually able to rescue Han ("help them you could") but when he then decides to accompany the daring mission to Endor, exactly the kind of thing that the Jedi spent the entire Clone Wars doing, he quickly realizes the huge mistake he's made. "I'm endangering the mission, I shouldn't have come!" ("You would destroy all for which they have fought and" etc.)

I see Luke's arc in the OT like so. In ANH he goes from being a naive farm boy to a decorated war hero, and then he spends the rest of the trilogy learning non-violence. His entire final confrontation with Vader and the Emperor starts with him passively waiting to die while the Sith try everything in their power to goad him into fighting. Eventually they succeed in starting a fight, but Luke wins when he finally rejects this and resumes his passive posture. Calm ... at peace ... passive. That's not the way the Jedi of the Galactic Republic carried themselves, but, again, we know how that turned out.

One last thing: I know ghost-Obi-Wan says some things that confound this outlook, but I'd just like to point out that Obi-Wan and Yoda are shown to be not exactly on the same page. They spend most of their time together in ESB arguing, in fact. Obi-Wan has clearly written Vader off as a lost cause, and is still thinking in terms of killing Sith. Yoda seems more concerned with Luke's spiritual well-being and what he needs to do to be a better kind of Jedi.

 

I think it shows the fallacy of the traditional Jedi training; get them as infants and indoctrinate them! The one time they took an older child, they completely botched their handling of his unique circumstances. Worked out rather poorly.

Luke was a young adult who had experienced life and was able to weigh his options. Worked out rather well.

 

“If you leave now, help them you could, but... you would destroy all, for which they have fought, and suffered”

To me, this warning from Yoda is pretty self-explanatory by the end of TESB.

Luke was left seriously wounded after his confrontation with Vader, both physically and mentally. The truth was devastating for him. Luke’s ignorance of Vader’s true identity protected him somewhat, and Yoda hoped to at least have Luke trained well enough to deal with it before he learned the truth. It is this ignorance and innocence which was destroyed.

NB - Yoda was still reluctant to admit to the truth when Luke visits him on his deathbed in ROTJ, and reminds Luke “Not ready for the burden were you”

 

It again shows how out of touch Yoda, and by extension the Jedi dogma, were. It was Luke learning the truth and having time to digest it that proved critical in his victory over Vader. Imagine the alternative scenario with Luke facing Vader again in front of the Emperor, and Vader dropping that knowledge on him ...

 

Only because by ROTJ Luke had presumably matured as both a person and as a Jedi (in-training) and was able to cope with the truth. What is being illustrated in TESB is that Luke is still an impetuous, impulsive youth prone to reactionary behaviour and emotional outbursts. Yoda knew that it would be devastating for him if he knew the truth at that time, and we later see this during TESB's final act.

 

I found that the Dagobah scenes dragged on a bit and could have easily been condensed, or truncated. But the Yoda puppet is quite wonderful, really

 

I'm not so sure. I think that the whole Dagobah sequence is quite brief when you consider what it has to convey, and I think each scene is important certainly to driving Luke's story arc

1. The arrival sets up just what a hostile place it is
2. Yoda's appearance throws Luke and the audience, because of Yoda's comical behaviour (at which Luke displays impatience and irritation)
3. The next scene is at Yoda's hut, where Luke is again impatient and impetuous, only for Yoda to reveal who he really is.
4. The training scene then gives an insight into the physical requirements and how Jedi get their strength, followed by the cave sequence in which Luke confronts himself
5. Following this, we see Luke gaining more control of his skills, only to lose concentration too easily when the X-wing sinks. Following Luke's failure and exasperation, Yoda reveals his true power
6. Luke's vision of the future and Yoda's warning.
7. Luke again shows his impatience and departs, leaving Yoda to lament taking him on and already thinking of his potential replacement.

I can't think how shortening any of those scenes would be conducive to making a tighter movie. It was pretty lean already to me.

 

But an obvious question is, why didn't they tell him when it was clear that he was leaving?
If the truth is so devastating, it is double more so if Luke finds out through Vader.
So letting Luke go and have Vader be the one who tells him, that is much more dangerous than them telling him.

The only explanation I have seen is that they thought that Vader would not say that, that he does not think of himself as Anakin anymore.
Which is pretty iffy to me.

As someone mentioned, Leia is there and is the other hope. So Luke going would now put BOTH hopes in Vader's hands.
Obviously the explanation is that Leia wasn't the "Other" at the time.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Yoda says that he did not expect Vader to admit to being Luke's father.

YODA: "Told you, did he? Unexpected this is and unfortunate."

It wouldn't be unexpected if he truly thought it was possible that he would cop to it. Yoda genuinely believed that he wouldn't acknowledge that part of himself anymore. As to telling Luke to stop it, it wouldn't. Luke would be more determined to go, if he knew, than being afraid to fall. He would also doubt their claim and see it as a tactic to keep him from going.

 

Oh, if only I knew how to do a Fan Edit! I'd show you a lean Dagobah sequence ... which you would like!

 

I tend to think otherwise. I think the fact that Ben Kenobi (and then Yoda) withheld the truth from Luke, while Vader didn't, weakens Luke's faith in his mentors much more than if they confessed the truth to him. It'd be much more of a Light Side thing to do, generally speaking.

Yoda expected Vader to behave as he himself would in this situation. The fact that he didn't suggests that even Yoda and Ben aren't infallible.

 

I honestly like it as it is. Each segment progresses the story. I don't feel like there is any excess on the Dagobah sequences at all, and in fact I think they are probably the best bits about TESB.

Dagobah (and Yoda) are whimsical by design, and I am a big fan of all things whimsy.

 

Most of the "excess" on Dagobah probably was in the deleted scenes (Luke training with remotes & cutting a metal bar with his lightsaber).