ST The New Definitely Not Improved Even More Horrible Than The Last Two Rumors Thread

Lots of problems with redemption. First, it's too much like the OT, and the ST is already too similar.

Second, we still don't even understand why Kylo turned, so redeeming him lacks weight.

The ST could have it's own identity if it just went with Kylo wants to be evil and succeeds at it.

I don't know, I just don't see any use for the ST.

 

Even with current rumors, we're still not sure if the FO is fully defeated or just pushed back.

 

Absolute, yes, they would.

I don't know if you've got children? I've got one, and I can tell you that I'll keep loving him whatever he does (even if i'll probably accept the idea that he has to die if it's the only way to protect others from him), and I know that my parents would do the same for me. Because that's what most parents do: that's called unconditional love. Parents don't love their children only when they do good things no, they keep loving them even when they do the worse. The comparison you make with Leia and Anakin actually doesn't stand at all, since Anakin was her father not her son, and the only things she knew about him is that he tortured her and Han, maimed her brother, didn't stop Tarkin from blowing up her home planet and slaughtered millions of innocent people. Actually her position on the subject is much more understandable than Luke's. Leia gave birth to Ben, raised him and knew the loving little boy he was. Just because we didn't get to see who he was before turning doesn't mean that he never was a good person. Of course she wants him to become this person again, and Han does too. The way he caressed Ben's face before falling said a lot.

 

So I like Ren as a character and dont mind if they redeem him and have him fight Palpatine but I'm going to play devils advocate and ask everyone something. Where is the line drawn between evil and "the ultimate evil". What makes Kylo better than Sidious? They both killed and are responsible for killing lots of people. With Kylo being the Supreme Leader you can say he is the "ultimate evil" prior to Sidious' coming back. Why is he redeemable over Sidious? Is it Sidious' corruption over others? I mean if it's his control over the darkside then he is just more powerful, which isnt his fault for being awesome. I think Ren would jump at the chance to be able to do what Palpatine did. Do people think Palpatine is just inherently evil and Ren isnt? I just want to know why people think this is a redemption arc. Isnt evil just evil or do people accept different degrees of evil?

 

I was referring to this part of the leak...

"They then go on to talk about something Jason has said before, which it is his firm opinion that when Han and Kylo are on the bridge, Han knows Kylo will kill him or at least understands. I believe this is tied into Jason's speculating in previous podcasts that Kylo's ultimate plan/motivations for turning will be revealed."

Maybe they won't go with that but the leaker seems pretty sure.

You don't expect that to be in the film?

 

A SW Christmas Carol starring Ebenezer Scrooge played by Adam Driver and Harrison Ford portraying the Ghost of Christmas past.

hey look at that IX opens up around Christmas time....

 

My Hope is that whatever Palpatine's threat on the galaxy is forces the FO and Resistance to work together to defeat him.

It would be a crime to not redeem the Storm troopers. They sure as hell deserve a redemption arc more than Kylo. It would also show something we haven't seen before in the movies instead of yet ANOTHER Skywalker gone bad turning back to the light.

 

I’m stunned by the Han vision rumor. Bringing Palps, Lando and Han back? Redeeming Kylo? Why is the story team so limited at Lucasfilm? Is the leadership this inept?

SW so reminds me of the series 24. It started off with brilliant writing, execution and broke new ground in TV at that time. It was a phenomenal show. And then after about 4 seasons it became the most formulaic, redundant show of all time. The episode 1 “main bad guy” was actually just an underling to a more power shadow villain. There was always a mole who would reveal their treachery making a call to some terror network from work. And much more “poetry.” Every season they had the exact same formula.

I don’t want Han back. I’m fine with limited Palps since he actually has supernatural powers (and cheating death was at least established in the PT). Han is not a force user. He’s gone. And some cheap vision is just silly. Kylo went rogue and Han made no effort whatsoever to reach out to him. Now he’s parenting from the grave? Ugh.....

 

In fiction it's usually a conscience. Villains who are able to regret and who are able to suffer because of their deeds are worth turning. Villains who don't snow any signs of emphaty or consceince are the ultimate evil. It's more about the nature of intentions because the audience usually forgives good guys if they're doing bad things because of the nature of good guys' intentions.

 

I’m not too concerned, myself

Strongly doubt it. That “leaks” was devoid of any substance.

About time Han show up again! But it’s not something that would spur Kylo to change.

That’s what I’ve been thinking for a while, yes. But not a TLJ throne room-style team-up; we already got that. Might be less buddy/buddy this time.

JJ never said that the junker story was true. He said RoS will honor “what happened” in TLJ. What happened was that Kylo made a claim and Rey believed him.

Nice that JJ debunked the claim that Rey’s past doesn’t matter, though.

Not surprised re the helmet. Hadn’t heard about the scar.

I’m sure it’s more complicated than that. And whatever positive feelings he has towards Rey aren’t of the variety that have kept him from trying to destroy everything she loves. I look forward to learning more about Kylo’s motivations vis a vis Rey.

Snoke died far too easily in TLJ. I had expected him - or whatever was animating him - to return in some form in RoS. I’m pleasantly surprised that we’re getting Palps!

Haven’t heard that one.

Of course the third act in a trilogy will build off the second. It will also build off TFA, and the rest of the Saga. I expect RoS to make clear how the prior two movies connect.

I do wonder, however, if those who loved TLJ will still love it - or love it for the same reasons - after RoS.

 

I’m not going to get into the unconditional love/you’re not a parent because I don’t think you want my opinion as to whether I think you should forgive your child if he becomes a patricidal, genocidal fascist. I definitely know they won’t match. Suffice it to say, I wouldn’t expect my mom to love me if I’d murdered my dad. But everyone expects Leia to, after Kylo murdered Han and Luke. I don’t know what Leia they saw in the OT again. And I include JJ and Kasdan in that.

As for Han caressing Kylo’s face, I think you should go back and watch Godfather II and watch Michael kissing Fredo again...

 

In the words of Neo: "the problem is choice." The person who is redeemed is better because that person chooses to be better in the story while the other one doesn't. It's through choice one falls and through choice one rises (one goes where one chooses).

 

I feel like I dreamt celebration. The excitement from the cast about their arcs and how JJ says he can’t wait for us to see the heroes together on a journey all seem faded into the background.

This sounds like the poor Ben we’ve failed you and we’re so sorry show. Again. I’m tired of being hit by that hammer.

 

Jason's most recent leak about Luke connecting Han and Kylo through the Force has been taken down. Lends more credence to it being at least partially true in typical fashion.

 

We can only speculate. One possibility is that more people know about the movie now, so leakers feel more secure about not being found out.

 

I agree. I also thought Vader's redemption lacked weight in the OT.

 

Maybe he's a....hole-ogram.

 

Jason did warn that the majority of Episode 9 would be spoiled pretty soon. I wonder if the problem is a Bad Robot one, rather than a Lucasfilm one. Its just that the vast majority of TFA got spoiled very early, the last film that Bad Robot were involved with. Then RO, TLJ and Solo were released relatively unscathed. Now it seems to be happening with Episode 9, which has Bad Robot and Abrams involved again.

 

Yes! I hope we see this. Perhaps Finn's leadership + this alleged Luke message will combine to make the FO troopers defect en masse and turn on their generals, etc.

Or maybe just something Finn does on his own. I'm cool with that.

Again, that would be the ST giving us something we've never seen in the saga before. I'd love that.

Seeing Hux shot down by a legion of stormies would certainly be satisfying.

 

I just want to hear more about Palpatine. Jason promised there's more about him coming soon.

 

There's no "should" about it. Everyone decides for themselves what they're willing to forgive. But quite a few parents love their children through thick and thin. Of course, there are even some parents who don't love their children at all, so every case is different.

I don't think there's much need to delve deep into parental psychology in the ST, because Leia put it very simply: "You think I want to forget him? I want him back!" and this after he'd already committed a good many crimes. That he killed Han made her lose hope of his return, but likely not stop loving him.

 

I would say it's a combination of:

1) Sources in Bad Robot. It's not a coincidence that both Bad Robot Star Wars films have had the most major leaks.

2) The team for this film was probably put together very quickly in comparison to TLJ's because of how late JJ Abrams was signed on as director. Rushing to get everything together might have meant people from VII were re-hired despite having potentially leaked in the past.

3) This is the last chance for leakers to shine and get their voices out. MSW's patreon/paid-only podcast means they're getting something out of dropping these leaks. They have incentive to do so that other leakers don't have, and it's the final film. It's all over after this.

4) Most of these rumours from MSW were floating around Reddit a few months ago with things that were confirmed in the teaser. That's what's leading a lot of us to suspect they're likely legit - they were dumped alongside things that were shown in the trailer. There have been pretty major leaks consistently since the costume drop a few months back. There was a precedence for this.

 

Lol.
I don't know if that is wishful thinking, it sounded to me like he was keeping RJ's story at least semi-true (is there a such thing?).
Plus Kylo didn't directly tell her, he asked her to look inside if she already knew, and Rey confirmed "They were nobody".
But yeah it is SW, it could still go in any direction.

Could you remind me of the particular JJ quote?

I haven't either.

True.

 

I really don't understand what your complaint is all about.

 

It is pretty funny if true: Luke pranking Kylo through the Vader helmet, desecrating Kylo's sacred object.