Lit The genealogy of the Skywalker-Solo clan

@sidv88 - sorry.

@Golbolco and @ColeFardreamer - you have me intrigued over this Hapan reference. I can probably do an adequate translation if someone's prepared to share, either here or by PM.

Continuing on Hapan topics, the Zel twins are said to be the daughters of an illegitimate half-brother of Isolder, though whether that's the truth is not entirely clear - the implication is that Ta'a Chume has various illegitimate descendants who simply don't count in the succession... Chelik seems to be the next-in-line as Ta'a Chume's senior niece, via Secciah or whichever of the sisters was the eldest to have daughters...

But I do like the idea that Ni'Korish is the pirate queen, with the implication that Ta'a Chume is Palpatine's daughter. Possibly Secciah and the others are only her half-sisters? This also runs smack into that whole idea of Mara as a Hapan... though correct me if I'm wrong, we all seem to like her being Scout?

We also all seem to agree on A/T, too - though as the example of Ahsoka shows, someone can be displaced in the timeline without any problems. I've also toyed around (purely as a fan) with the idea that Tahiri knows and is "playing a part" in the novels when we see her POV, or else is a YV duplicate and the real one ran off with Anakin...

Specifically to @Golbolco - I think Mara has a POV somewhere where she thinks of herself as drawing on "the Emperor's power", connected to their Force contact, though that may in part be what she's trained to think...

Specifically to @ColeFardreamer - continuing what is essentially wild and crazy speculation on K-Mac's authorial intent in writing a backstory that would be compatible with whatever Prequels GL came up with, the Fallanassi are presumably already doing their behind-the-scenes Great River stuff like they do in Koornacht, and not wanting to be noticed; also, I suspect that Padmé is misbehaving just as badly as by marrying Skyguy as he is by marrying her (though of course this raises a question of whether he did know)...

@Hamburger_Time - thanks for that; the realisation that Ko Sai's research ties into Abel's stuff is pleasantly (but appropriately) weird.

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Mara was IIRC directly taken from her parents when she was very young. And she was born in 17 BBY.

Her being Hapan doesn’t seem likely to me, beyond her beauty and red hair.

In terms of the Zel twins, it seems likely that there is a level of concealment in Hapan politics. People don’t reveal who their parents are unless there is good reason to do so(amongst the noble class). Tenel Ka might wish to keep her cousins identity secret, both for their own safety, and so they aren’t used in plots against her.

 

Given Isolders older brother was not illegitimate I think they are not older. As McEwok added as further proof. Sorry.

Maybe they have shadow childs like Chiss or else? Not everyone is positioned for the throne. Even if applicable, they might have opted out of their birthright! But as Darth Invitctus said, not everyone may reveal his/her parentage for some reason.

I will take photos for you to translate later after work! And it was a Dathomir reference, not Hapan though it may tie into Hapans with dathomiri background

And yes, even if I love my Hapans and Dathomiri, Scout is Mara stays as my favourite so far

Mara's power diminishing or rather connecting and drawing from someone elses may be in part what she is trained to DO actualy In that regard, other Emperors Hands too could draw from the Emperors power, one even drew him in entirely and carried him around a while after Endor!

Well Tahiri only playing her part was very convincing. I wonder what Anakin thought when she played her part with Jacen... or flirting Ben... and don't say it was all part of Anakins plan I do wonder though, what if she KNEW he survived somehow somewhere and it was not YET meant for them to be together again? And that she could not reveal it to anybody. She waited and waiting drove her over the edge to Jacen and Ben. Which she regretted later.

Also, Luke sent Tahiri to Dagobah to meditate and use the vision-cave-tree-temple. I do wonder what she saw there. WHO she may have met there? We know from TCW Yoda Force arc and Rebels that Dagobah is the starting point to World between Worlds stuff communication and portals as well as many interesting Force sojourns. So Tahiri had the best starting point for any Anakin Solo Force thingie. And hey Tahiri is the Legends version of a certain Bridger... best of both worlds always, Tusken/Human, Jedi/sith, Jedi/Human/Vong, etc. bridging worlds is her lot in life. So bridging life and death is next up in the game for her!

And if that is not enough: ANia Solo and ANakin Solo always went together for me, so she may be Tahiri and Anakins lineage that obviously Marasiah knew nothing about like her ancestors never did.

Regarding Fallanassi-Padmé: IF Anakin did know, he must have been paranoid as hell. I mean she could hide anything from him... secret lovers (Clovis?) and affairs included. No wonder Vader doubted her death despite the Emperors words and had it investigated in Legends and new canon, right? Maybe he thought she tried to hide Kenobi too on her ship in ROTS! No wonder he got angry.

Precedence for the gamble Tenel Ka pulled with Allanas parentage and hiding her offworld with family? Zel Twins parentage was not public for political reasons until much later. I can get behind this!

 

I'm currently leaning toward Mara and Shira as clones of Etain, although I'm not opposed to the Scout hypothesis. It could be that Vader and Palpatine in their ongoing quest to bring the universe to its knees were debating whether or not the Dark side is stronger than raw Force energy ("neither light nor dark" as Vader comments in BTEH) and were also interested in testing the cloning of Force-sensitive people for later endeavors (Starkiller, resurrecting Palpatine, etc.)

Vader takes one clone of Etain, renames her Shira Brie, and trains her in the ways of the Dark side as any other Acolyte of Palpatine's would be. Palpatine takes the other and raises her independently from the other Hands. Different training environments or exposure to different sides of the Force could warp the appearances of either so that they're not identical when they eventually meet.

But the Scout hypothesis is equally possible, I just don't see as much direct evidence for it. It also doesn't tie Mara and Shira together, which I'm a lot more wed to than any parent or origin theory.

By the way, I had a thought that came to me about Tahiri Veila now that we're discussing her role after Anakin's death (and various potential resurrections.) Why is it that Tahiri was never tied closer to Darth Krayt and the One Sith? They're both of Tatooinian origin, descended from Jedi in exile. They're both tormented by the Vong with lasting effects... I think there was a story to tell here about their parallels, and maybe that story involves Darth Vua still?

 

@Golbolco I was aware of parlells between Tahiri and Darth Krayt, but so far never gave it much thought because they are on opposing sides and had no contact. But now you basically pushed me into this:

What if Darth Krayt alias A'sharad Hett had a daughter or granddaughter whose name is Tahiri Veila?


What if Anakin however he may return is working behind the scenes against Krayt and One Sith preferring to stay in the shadows so he is not found out about by them as well as family would distract him including his families other conflicts running paralell keeping them busy.

And now the unlikely one: What if Anakin Solo faced off with Krayt at one point... or tried to infiltrate the One Sith in the same way Tahiri stuck close to Jacen infiltrating his Sith, but in the process she fell prey to the dark side not strong enough to play undercover!

Ok and this one is really really far out there, don't bother with it: What if a Lightsider tried to bodyhop and use Essence Transfer? Sure overtaking an unwilling host is evil and darkside. A lightsider might simply hop into the body and ride along, merely influencing the host, not taking over. What if Anakin is doing that to Krayt? Much like Vitiate tried with Revan and vice versa!


PS: Even if Scout is Mara, Shira can be cloned from her.

 

I personally believe the intention of the authors was for Tahiri to be Obi-Wan’s granddaughter but LFL limited that. A link between her and Krayt is still possible. Both of her parents were force-sensitive too, I think, so multiple Jedi grandparents is possible.

On body hopping lightsiders: isn’t this what Callista does in Children of the Jedi? I’m not buying that Anakin is inhabiting Krayt personally, but lightsiders are still able to do essence transfer as far as I know.

 

Regarding Tahiri, I think the main reason she never fully committed to jacen and the Sith cause was in her heart, she just wanted Anakin back. And one of jacen’s biggest blunders was getting her to join him on a false promise he couldn’t(and knew he couldn’t keep).

 

@Darth Invictus - we don't know if what Mara rememebers is accurate, though.

@ColeFardreamer - to be fair, I'm open to what we've been told about the Zel twins' parentage not being completely true. They could be Kalen's daughters, hidden to protect them from Ta'a Chume. Or they could be clones of some sort.

But your observation is that if Padmé is Fallanassi, then Skyguy's paranoia will reach new heights, is a pretty smart one.

I also like the idea that Mara could be the original Scout while Shira is a clone - that differentiates them while keeping them as sisters.

@Golbolco - you're probably right about the Obi-Wan connection. One thing I wanted to do in WARFARE was retcon "Desertwind" from I, Jedi into a separate character to pick up the loose-end continuity here. I don't think that got any further than Jason not being convinced by that idea, though...

Back in the day when I wasn't worried about people mistake my ramblings for anything of importance, I tended to think that Tahiri's adoptive Tusken clan were a branch of the one Sharad Hett formed, but in the absence of appropriate canon, never defined things more that that.

And to @ColeFardreamer and @Golbolco both - I vaguely recall Hambly implying that the body-hopping in Children of the Jedi was all tainted. *shrug*

- The Imperial Ewok

 

I forgot about Desertwind--the nature of the name's origin alone is a lot more fitting for Krayt than Obi-Wan, huh?

I have this pet theory that because of Alec Guiness's relationship to his role as Obi-Wan, Lucasfilm wanted to respect his wishes and have him referenced as little as possible in the novels of the 90s. Hence why Zahn was forbidden to make C'baoth an insane Obi-Wan clone or why Rebecca Moesta wasn't allowed to make Tahiri Veila a Kenobi grandchild. It might have even been a likeness issue at the time. Does Obi-Wan's ghost even appear after the Thrawn Trilogy? I don't think so.

Speaking of meta theories: whether Mara is Scout or Etain, isn't it fitting that Karen Traviss got to define both Mara's beginning and end?

 

Obi Wan's ghost actually does appear in the Thrawn trilogy. He tells Luke he can not remain in the mortal plane much longer.

 

I'm going to start on my Dathomiri notes by talking about the origin of the ethnic group and their progenitor Allya, the religion of Dathomiri Witchery, and the Clone Wars/canon nightsisters. We're delving into more ethnoreligious origins and anthropology than genealogy, but I'll wrap it back around.

First off, I'm going to get it out of the way that Dathomir's history has become needlessly convoluted given how popular of a planet it's become, and the Clone Wars did zero help at resolving this. I'm actually unclear on why the retcons were even necessary given the problems they cause, but I guess that's neither here nor there.

I think that the canon explanation of the Dathomiris as a subspecies/race of Zabrak makes more sense than the Zabrak-Human crossbreed explanation from Legends. I think that Mace Windu's line about "the males reside on Iridonia" was an extremely flimsy attempt to tie all these retcons to existing canon at the time. I also don't think any male Dathomiris had been described prior to the Clone Wars TV show, so does it really affect the universe if they had horns? Zabraks are also one of the closer species to baseline humanity if I recall correctly, so nobody in Courtship of Princess Leia paying attention to the horned men and impossibly-pale women isn't very unrealistic.

To touch a little bit on how all the Zabraks got there in the first place: the Paecian Empire mentioned in Courtship seems all but confirmed to be a secular successor state to the Sith Empire following the events of The Old Republic. A quick glance at the map of the GFFA reveals that the three planets Iridonia, Elom, and Dathomir all fell within or on the border of the Sith Empire. Perhaps the Paecian Empire was for a time dominated by the Zabraks (who in KOTOR are shown to be a bloodthirsty culture closer to the Yevetha in behavior) and they settled a few planets where the horned races now reside.

It would appear that all of the Daughters of Allya are literal: all Dathomiris by 8 ABY are descended from Allya in the maternal line, which explains their low-level Force sensitivity. There also might be a Sith influence: per the Darth Bane books, a Sith outpost was present on the planet. In canon at least, being raised near Force-attuned locations results in a deeper connection with the Force, which could justify the continued Force sensitivity after so many generations. Dathomir is also in general a planet with history as it was once the seat of the Kwa.

It has been established in the past that Allya taught her daughters the ways of the Force and wrote the Book of Law as the guiding religious book for her children. But this is where Clone Wars once again causes conflict: it would appear that the Nightsisters are the dominant force on the planet by 20 BBY and there are no light side or ambivalent witches to be found.

I would suggest that, in fact, the Nightsisters were the dominant force on Dathomir for centuries. First, there's no reason to believe that Dathomir is an extensively settled planet. By 8 ABY there's only around a dozen clans and then that number drops following the Nightsister-Witch war in the next four years to nine clans. Second, we know very little of the period between Allya's death and Gethzerion's reign. It may be that Augwynne and her witches were the rebels against Talzin, Gethzerion and the like.

Given that the Dathomiris are long-lived (I was wrong last time; Rell wasn't 300, she was almost 400. Dathomiri years are a lot longer than standard years) I would assume that very early in Dathomiri history a small number of Nightsisters gained dominion over the rest of the witches. But who founded the Nightsisters? Pre-TCW claims it was Gethzerion, and while TCW doesn't necessarily contradict that, she never becomes relevant to Talzin and Maul in TCW.

I think the Book of Shadow could easily be retconned into a writing by Talzin or even a predecessor of hers. Gethzerion might claim to be the founder of the Nightsisters (and she's around 200 years old so she has the age to back up that claim) but there's no denying that other witches preceded her, were more powerful than her, and on occasion left the planet to cause strife (like Kyrisa or the witch from the Endor films.) Gethzerion was basically a local warlord always getting left behind by the bigger fish, so she took advantage of a power vacuum and formed a cult of personality to scare the local imperials.

I'll finish the first part of the notes by touching on the (for now) unconnected-to-the-Skywalkers family, the Nightsisters of Talzin's. Like @ColeFardreamer and I were referencing, there is a new canon non-English book called The Dark Side: An Illustrated Story that reveals some information about Talzin and her Nightsisters. Specifically,

Spoiler

Talzin stole methods from Plagueis and Sidious on the creation of life. Nightsisters, at least in the tradition of Talzin, can produce offspring without fathers asexually. There's some big implications for this: I think most obviously it implies that Maul was born without a father, and that Talzin may have tried to pass him off to Palpatine as a child born of a virgin, i.e. a child who fulfills the Chosen One prophecy. This actually makes a lot of sense in-universe considering how Talzin's Nightsisters all look very similar to each other. It's not just a limited genepool, it's parthenogenesis with Dark side gene randomization. Maybe they're all her children or grandchildren, lacking fathers in the vast majority of cases. Whether or not Gethzerion had this technique is debatable, but for sure its Dark side roots mean Augwynne's witches did not and would not employ it.

Going off of timeline alone: Talzin is probably the granddaughter of Allya and maybe first cousin of Augwynne, niece of Rell. I assume that Savage and Feral have the same father but not the same as Maul

Spoiler

if he has one.

Kycina from Darth Plagueis could be retconned into a fake identity of Talzin's. It also looks to me that Brother Viscus is likely their father None of the Opress brothers have known children (least likely Maul,) but there is the ambiguously-canon Maulkiller from The Force Unleashed II (a bonus skin, hardly a character) who could count as a genetic legacy; there's something that could come back into play someday. Something I took note of while compiling all this information is that given the Dathomiri aging rate, the cancelled Legacy-era Maul video game becomes a lot more plausible.

 

Great writeup, thx @Golbolco

Though some discussion is less genalogy and more general history etc. some posts might be better crossposted to the Community Dathomir Fanclub thread.. unless this does not clog the topic here.

Dathomir is a big place, there are Zabrak, Dathomiri and Humans around. Some clans are mixed others not. Leeland had this explained in an Insider article once reconsiling some, and The Last Jedi legends book did the rest showing they all are there. No need to decide for one or the other retcon if all can coexist. During TCW lightside clans may be around but unseen on other continents. Only after Grievous purge may they all be in hiding or reduced to rubble in canon, or not entirely as Legends had it. Even canon has offworld a surviving Nightsister and her daughter post-Endor as per a by now discontinued cellphone game.

The Paecian Empire intrigues me, it may have former Sith territory ties but in name is different enough to be left alone by the Republic. Paecian also reminds me of the word Peace which starts similiar, so maybe a yet unrevealed Darth Paxis created peace and the Paecian Empire so to speak. Paecia is a world too, no? So their language got exported to other worlds like Dathomir.

Age and Dathomiri: Was Rells age given in human or dathomir years? If so, how old could she really be? Same for Talzin? Most overlook her true age, what was the source for it again?

I love the idea that Maul had no father and was presented as a Choosen One.

Regarding pre-Allya Dathomir: I wonder how long after the last Sith War with said Academy on Dathomir did Sith Witches or Witch-like Sith using alchemy still roam Dathomir, forgotten and cut off from the rest of the galaxy? These precursers of the later Nightsisters might even have devolved/evolved into Nightsisters. Infighting and planetary warlordism may have reduced them to a handfull only left with their alchemical enhanced local beasts slaying population even long after they themselves were gone. Until Allya came and gave the surviving population a chance to regoranise and defend against said roaming beasts.
But I wonder, what if a secret Sith lineage did survive on Dathomir and lead to the first Nightsisters being corrupted from Allyas daughters? Allya may have been a Dark Jedi before her exile, or merely a controversial nondogmatic one if not dark, but she is no Sith and finding a secret Sith lineage on her new planet may have reinforced her Jedi side to fight them.

I also wonder when in the timeline and for how long did witches leave dathomir for the galaxy creating trouble before being pushed back and stranded planetside again? What other galactic events happened paralell? Was this Rise of the Nightsisters probably tied to other troubles? Mandalorian genocides, Katana Fleet, etc. and could be seen as one of several reasons the Republic tried to arm itself long before AOTC? How do machinations of the Rule of Two Sith of these times play into the events?
We know that they could not leave it at the time the Chu'unthor crashed and when Yoda came visit to retrieve some lore and investigate. But maybe The Chu'unthor passing through the system or other ships crashing enabling witches to use or repair them to leave tie all into this untold hinted at backstory.

Limiting the french/spanish books asexual reproduction to Talzins clan is what I would prefer too, though it offers some fun retcons it should not get out of hand (or @Thrawn McEwok will use it to get Tahiri a kid without Anakin around )

Now, how about some more genealogy and a tree for all of Teneniels relatives, if they even can be placed all, or are some lists better given the many names we know from Legends witches in various sources?

 

Interesting, I haven't read The Last Jedi. If it does reconcile the Grievous purge and Dathomiri race with everything else, it would be pretty useful.

It could be that if there was indeed a Sith influence on the Nightsisters from the start, the Baneite Sith may have been in contact with the Nightsisters and were exporting them off-world to cause trouble. Plagueis and Sidious for sure knew Talzin and her clan and had plenty of opportunity for around 100 years to be depositing witches wherever they were needed.

There was indeed a Paecian system in the Quelli sector, probably the capital for the Paecian empire.

Rell's age is given in "local years" which is 491 standard days. If I recall correctly, Allya died while her oldest daughter was very young (by Dathomiri standards,) something like 8 local years. With her children trained in the Force and clearly powerful enough, local Sith cultists (not actual Sith, just worshipping the Sith artifacts) might have come in and corrupted a few to create the Nightsisters.

If I had to guess, the only children we know of Allya's are Daka and Rell. Daka is probably Talzin's mother and Rell is confirmed to be Augwynne's mother at this point, I think. I doubt we'll ever know the male progenitors for a lot of these characters. Also of interest is that we know a Jedi had come to the planet pre-32 BBY and conceived Ros Lai with Zalem, who was the leader of the Nightsisters before Talzin. How Zalem fits into the family tree, I don't know. Asajj Ventress is probably Talzin's granddaughter; it's been mentioned in Legends that Talzin had a firstborn daughter, and all of the members of her coven look very similar to each other.

Augwynne had three daughters: Barruka, Gethzerion, and Allaya/Kara'teel. T he latter is named as Teneniel's mother at different points, so I think we should just assume they're the same person. Barruka and Gethzerion are both at most 200 years old and Augwynne not much older than her daughters, but Kara'teel was a late birth. If we limit Talzin's asexual reproduction technique to only her coven, then presumably Kirana Ti has a father. Her mother is probably either Barruka or Gethzerion from before they turned to the Dark side.

Presumably the Singing Mountain Clan is all genetically related to one another or otherwise they wouldn't be called a clan, but the exact genealogy is anyone's guess. For sure, Rell is the matriarch and all of the others are her daughters, granddaughters and so on. Isn't there a line in the Courtship of Princess Leia that Teneniel's father was a Jedi/Jai? Or was it her grandfather? Were there any visiting Jedi during the Dark Times that could have impregnated Kara'teel around 12 BBY?

EDIT: A couple of other family connections, mostly inferences. Baritha is probably Gethzerion's daughter given her rank among the Nightsisters and said to be the aunt of a witch named Damaya, who later joins the Jedi. Perhaps Damaya is the name of Kirana Ti's daughter? That would make Kirana Ti's daughter slightly older than originally thought, however. I think that comparing ages, rank, and known familial ties for the Singing Mountain Clan will get me further, time for some deep research for a part three.

Also, a stray thought on Rell's comment about Luke having multiple children: maybe Rell saw him and Malinza Captison, whom he became the godfather of after her mother's death.

 

@Golbolco Including godfathered kids would indeed solve that problem well!

Aside the Chu'unthor crash and Yodas visit hundreds of years ago (400?) we do not know any named Jedi visitors to Dathomir. But they could be further attempts at reclaiming some of the Chu'untor stuff left behind, either that or Jedi involved in taking care of witches that left to haunt the galaxy once more for which we have no date either. The question is still when spacetravel tech was availeable on Dathomir and to who and when it was not. Talzin sure left several times in her past, and may have traded with Palpatine for such tech before using it up or it being destroyed in whatever mayhem she caused. Do we have dates from Plagueis novel and other material as to when exactly Palpatine took Maul? Or at what age?

Regarding Ros Lai and Zalem, could Zalem have reigned the Nightsisters interim in a period where Talzin was offworld? Talzin knew other planets and the galaxy quite well, as repeatedly shown when she talked to Asajj, Savage, Maul, even visiting Jedi, or when we last saw her in another worlds ruin with solar lenses and rituals. She even had a cult following there, so her offworld ties exist and who knows for how long. Ros Lai went on to help the Republic offworld and give intel to the Jedi, as we saw her do in the Game Clone Wars Jedi Alliance. This and another CW game even had Nightsister involvement offworld as Nightsisters helped the CIS actively, which may be tied to Talzins galactic missions and her return to Dathomir maybe.

Note that we know many many more witch names, just look at the wookieepedia listings. Games, rpg, galaxies, cardgames with story, added more, especially to Singing Mountain Clan too. Do we know for certain the exact number of children Rell or Augwynne had? There may be more branches but so far I like your analysis a lot!

Maybe a list of offworld Witches/Nightsisters may be useful too down the line. Or another for post-Endor witches for we did not cover all yet.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Dathomiri

Kirana Ti also had a niece: https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Sanola_Ti
So we need another sister of Kirana that had Sanola. Any named suggestions?

I have to do some rereading myself but from first glances and the top of my head I'd say we have some good lineages, even if some details are still vague and fathers unnamed. From Allana Djo Solo back to Allya even and many paralell family branches. As well as lots of unsorted but technically somehow related other witches. Depending on who Allya may be tied to from even further past families we could go on backwards but that'd be headcanon only.


Another question: Dathomiri familynames and naming traditions in general! How do they work?

You got Augwynne Djo and her daughters all having the Djo name. Some not named such in books but not named otherwise either, right? All got just first name or first name + Djo.

Then there is the Ti line with Kirana Ti and onwards as well as a niece wearing the Ti name which indicates Kirana's sister and parent also was a Ti. So... can we safely assume we know Kirana's mothers last name now and add it to hers?

Also, why is Kirana Ti, cousin to Teneniel Djo, a Ti if Augwynne, Teneniel and Teneniels mother are Djo's? Food for thought.

What other Dathomiri last names do we know of and where do they come from given a) maternal lineages on Dathomir as well as b) if all are descended from Allya somehow with only rare occasions of other genetical input (Zabrak or otherwise), why do not all share the last name? Was Rell a Djo? Was Allya actually Allya Djo? Or Ti or else?

Now it gets even weirder: Tenel Ka is Tenel Ka Djo. Ka is a second name or part of first name, somesuch. Is Kirana Ti, like Tenel Ka, simply that? Kirana Ti Djo? Then why does her niece share the Ti as if it were a last name (authorial intent!)? Or is it coincidence that Kirana and her nices's first name have a second word named Ti?

Look at the Wook list I linked to above, lots of witches only have one name or first name known. But there are others with first and last name. Groups even with same last name, as:

Kymeri
Kai
Lai
Vurse
Cin
Kinn
... (there are more in the link, but of those only one named person exists, the above have at least 2, in some cases up to 5 family members named!)

A lot of them from Galaxies MMO actually but not all. Was Zalem actually Zalem Lai, or why did her daughter get a last name as Ros Lai?

So I guess family names do exist. So what differs family name from clan name, which is near identical given all the relations? A clan consists of several families with different last names? When how and why do new names then get created?

Maybe other foreign naming traditions can help clear this up, given western analogues do not work 100%. Neither is it a variant on the son/daughter of naming of ancient arabian or skandinavian naming traditions. Maybe last names do not signify anything as in western society but rather are taken by witches randomly for their dathomiri meaning alone. Like native american names, named after nature, special gifts, spirit animal or else. And it runs in families to take the same last name for the family shares a spirit animal or else or are genetically all gifted with the same talent or tasked with similiar functions in the society.

PS: If anybody feels this is too offtopic from genalogy, just push us into the dathomir topic in continuity and let us know. Other families and lineages folks want to discuss indepth?

 

Regarding the chronology of Talzin and Zalem: Talzin may have been offworld until around 31 BBY, after Maul's "death." I imagine that at this point she and Palpatine had their falling out and Talzin returned to Dathomir, which would have probably been in chaos following Zalem's death. At this point she could reunite the Nightsister covens. Maul himself was taken by Palpatine less than a year after his birth, so 54-53 BBY.

My basic assumption on Allya's children is that she had as many daughters as there are clans, not counting the Nightsisters. Wookieepedia lists 13 clans, and we learn in the Jedi Academy Trilogy that the fallout from COPL has dropped that number to 9. Wookieepedia's number might not be necessarily trustworthy because I haven't looked over the exact history of each clan, like when they were founded or ended. If I recall from Shadow Academy, the remnants of Gethzerion's Nightsister coven formed a new clan called the Great Canyon Clan. We should probably assume most of these witches were descended from the Singing Mountain Clan.

Sanola Ti could be Baritha's daughter if my theory on Kirana being a daughter of Gethzerion is correct. On names: while obviously the last names are matrilineal, I think that some Witches might change their last names when founding a new clan (or Nightsister coven.) So Gethzerion may have been born Gethzerion Djo, but later became Gethzerion Ti when she left home and later fell to the Dark side. Kirana Ti later returned to the Singing Mountain Clan, perhaps before her mother became a Nightsister. Nightsisters also in general might ignore traditions like last names because they're all about countering the mainstream Dathomiri culture. Talzin's last name could be Opress, or she could have a daughter whom she names Ventress, a son named Opress, and another son merely called Maul.

 

@Golbolco - I guess I feel that any official decision on Mara's origins would be best done in consultation with Zahn.

@ColeFardreamer - I'm pretty sure that Rell's age is specified as being in local years, either in Courtship or Cracken's Threat Dossier - the "400" is an extrapolation to standard.

As to Dathomir - having not yet read this new material, I'm going to politely dodge around that, but I'll state my preexisting opinion that the only way to reconcile the Nightsisters of the cartoons and the fundamentally non-Nightsister "clan" society seen in other material is to place them in completely different parts of the planet. With three continents that are largely unexplored, and transport almost entirely limited to animals, that's not really a conceptual challenge.

The "clans" are notionally light-side, and "Nightsisters" are an intrusive concept in "clan" society. Moreover, on both occasions where the term shows up, this is in the context of Imperial influence - the story as presented in Courtship is that as far as the main clan area knew, there were only individual outcasts until the Empire showed up ("eight seasons" before 7 BBY by local reckoning, so probably 3-4 BBY); Gethzerion was recruited by the Empire and she began to gather a "clan" of her own, but this group is defeated in 7 ABY; the Great Canyon Clan which shows up again a decade-and-a-half later is entirely a recruiting front for the Second Imperium, established by Brakiss, and consisting of "Nightsisters" in little more than name - they have a fairly vague potentium rhetoric and a message of sexual equality, and they're organised as much more of a conventional clan with rancors and traditional body-armour.

The status of the prequel-era groups in the Quin Vos comics is more ambiguous - they're unquestionably aggressive and ambitious, but the comics don't that I recall ever call them "Nightsisters" at all. That may have been retconned since, though. I stopped paying as much attention as I used to a few years back...

We do know that Allya only showed up around 600 BBY, and there had been a Sith academy around 400 years earlier, so in literal terms there was evidently some sort of Force activity on the planet earlier (for anyone who remembers Nightfall on Ruusan, the girl in that was intended to be Dathomiri, though I'm not sure that ever passed into the holocron)...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Charal calls herself a Nightsister of Dathomir in 3ABY (Ewoks: Shadow of Endor comic). She's been marooned on Dathomir since 96BBY. And in Book of Sith's Talzin section, Talzin comments "One of our sisters has yet to return the Talisman of the Raven". So by implication, the Talzin-type Nightsisters were active at least that far back.

The Last Jedi (Legends book) talks about the Kwa temple that "the Nightsisters had plundered for their own ends" - referring to the one in the Quinlan Vos comics - so Mother Zalem's coven is now considered Nightsisters, even if they might not have been seen calling themselves that in the comic. Ros Lai does talk about "taking over the sisterhood".

Given that Jax Pavan needs to get help from the Singing Mountain clan because the Temple is now in their territory - they couldn't have been too far away from Zalem's group during the Quinlan Vos comics.

Zalem's group, Mingella from the Darth Maul comic, and Talzin's group all seem to have greyish skin and tattoos.

Thematically, Zalem's group seem like a bridge between Talzin's and regular Clans - they keep their males with them rather than segregating them, and they ride rancors (Clan) but they're very Dark Side, and Zalem wears red robes (like Talzin).

I think Filoni or Hidalgo actually stated that Talzin was loosely modelled on Zalem.

 

Cracken's Threat Dossier according to the Wook'

 

Note that there are other offworld nightsisters, even during the times of Gethzerions reign in Imperial times, including visits from Forceusers like Namman Cha:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Kyrisa

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/The_Nightsister's_Revenge

Singing Mountain territory is hard to define given lack of good maps. Galaxies maps were game specific and I love them but they lacked any dune terrain for the desert locations. I imagine clan terrain shifted a lot over the years and the only true constant was the mountain they had as ancestral home. The mountain is surrounded by the befriended River clan's river, so Singing Mountain Clan territory must not have been continious but dotted here and there maybe? Or it was Singing Mountain occupied territory that was not yet renamed for a new clan formed there out of sisters that left Singing Mountain Clan.

Game mechanics since KOTOR or even Katarn games had darkside use start your skin go pale and blood darker so veins are showing as dark strains like tatoos crisscrossing that are not tatoos actually. Some dark side cult opted for tatoos even. And not all darksiders show this type of degradation. One can't assume all darksiders show it, nor those that don't all use illusions to hide it, like Palpatine. Dooku looked normal or was that also just a Force trick? Nope, given he did not revert to any darksiderlook once beheaded.

So the question is, do witches in general have paler skin? nope, see light side clans like Singing Mountain, Teneniel, etc. normal human skincolors. But paler skin is attributed to the Dathomiri species like Asajj Ventress and her sisters that have a degree of Zabrak in their crossbred species genes alongside human ones.

Zalems group also had horned nightsisters of Zabrak descent, female + horned, not just horn-less crossbreds. So Their skin being paler than average clans makes sense, but not all were pale given Zalems lot not all mingled with Zabrak. But I bet the desert and Zalems clan live in between the COPL clan territories and Talzins darker lands given they are a nice cross, skincolorwise and else.

Given long hapan health, I think Ta'a ascended only after Palpatine became Emperor, thus after Order 66. Going by her fake-Jedi-refuge story, she was not Queen back then. Thus she didn't ascend until in her 40s? So Ni'korish as Palpatines sweetheart makes sense.

Heck, maybe Palpatine somehow had contributed to Ni'korish's death so Ta'a could ascend and rule more pro-Imperial than Ni'korish would have after some fallout? Only to learn that Ta'a also over time would resent Imperial meddling and push them back out?

 

Triplets? You have me intrigued... but Qi'ra's haircolor is not red.

While everyone suspects Maul would train Qi'ra as a new type of Nightsister when summoning her to Dathomir, I was more inclined to worry which witchspirit would take over her body upon arrival? Rebels precedence and all! Who is Maul trying to resurrect? Qi'ra Talzin? And what happened to exile him on Malachor thereafter actually.

 

In The Last Jedi a point is made of how the Zabraks of Dathomir especially, tend to get "adulthood tattoos"- even the ones in Augwynne's clan.

Ros Lai looks paler than the average Dathomiri, but less "grey" than her mother Zalem. I would speculate that Zalem has more Zabrak blood than her daughter does.

Possibly, Zalem was one of Mother Talzin's group, sent to take over one of the more "conventional" clans? This would explain why the rancors have not yet abandoned the clan - it's only fairly recently started "going darkside".

 

While we're on the subject on Hapes, Dathomir, and heritage... aren't all the Hapans supposed to be blonde-haired, with Tenel Ka's red hair coming from her Dathomiri side? But I think once we got to LOTF it seemed like all the Hapans became red-haired? Or am I misremembering?