ST The Rise of Skywalker vs The Last Jedi.

i'm refereing to the fart jokes Lucas put in the PT

 

TLJ was a total mess, it was too childish, a total low in the starwars saga imo, thankfully I didn´t spend money to go to the cinema to see it like TFA

TROS, like all the films in the last trilogy, is also a messy analogy to the original trilogy (III, IV and V) but I found it more entertaining, it had better scenarios (Spoiler: I liked the death star pieces scenario and also the dark Exogol) and at least it explained more about all the storyline in the trilogy, I feel like this last movie at least leaves the audience more satisfied than the last movie which was only about a stubborn Luke and all mighty and silly Rey.

 

This is a much more difficult thread to answer compared to The Force Awakens VS The Last Jedi as I actually really love both films. The Last Jedi had a lot of things going for it, but so does Rise of Skywalker. TLJ perhaps took more risks, but I’d also say Rise of Skywalker did as well (making Leia a Jedi inbetween the trilogies, the Reylo kiss, bringing Palpatine back from the dead which in a way made the victory in the original trilogy seem less grand).

Rise of Skywalker truly had the difficult job of not just wrapping up the end of its own trilogy but the two trilogies before it. Bringing Palpatine and making Rey his granddaughter seemed to be a way of trying to do that. But it had truly powerful stuff. Rey having all the Jedi speak to her and her statement about them all being in her which bloody amazing, no doubt about it.

Chewbacca crying about Leia did get me as upset as I was when I had learned Carrie had unfortunately passed away too. And I was expecting Mark to return, but not Harrison. That did shook me.

Funnily enough this might also be the first time C-3P0 might have been my favourite character in a film, he was gold. Not only funny but emotional too. I didn’t like he got his memories back though, that kind of undermined that scene where he got them removed. The same kinda goes for Chewbacca’s death too although I’m glad he didn’t actually die that way, but it was a shock seeing Rey using force lightening on the ship.

There was a lot of chaotic energy in Rise of Skywalker, to the point I was worried that if it wasn’t going to take a breather it would be a messy film. Halfway through the brakes are put on and emphasis is put on setting things up for the climax, with Kylo going back to being Ben and Rey rejecting the path Luke took. It turned out really well. I loved the final confrontation with the Sith layout, it was really unique and even though they the audience were meant to be cultists or something I had a lot of fun pretending these were all the spirits of all the Sith who had died.

The Last Jedi by nature was much more slower paced and so I was able to process it more during the film when watching it. I’m still digesting Rise of Skywalker. But I think it’s a close tie between the two films. They both set out to do different things and they do those things really well.

 

When thinking about these films, I must say it's difficult because they seem to be missing what the other has, creating an inconsistent narrative that ultimately causes the ST fall at the bottom in my rankings of the Skywalker Saga.

TROS suffers from way too much scene hopping (much like lightspeed hopping), plot expositions, and a rather bland final battle that should have been the epic climax akin to Return of the Jedi and Revenge of the Sith. TLJ is a better crafted film but it suffers from too much meta-subversions and commentary to craft a narrative to the finale.

We were given critique lessons of the Jedi by Luke but never the training and the bonding promised through the "beating heart." We were given the subversion of Supreme Leader Snoke being usurped by Kylo Ren but never an explanation as to how he occupied the power vacuum left behind by Darth Sidious. We were given the commentary on capitalism and the grey area of war but never Finn planning a Stormtrooper uprising that the fans wanted (and even worse, it was hinted at in a deleted scene). And of course, we were given the subversive backstory of Rey's parents being nobodies and that Rey was never part of an important lineage but we don't see how this would personally affect Rey in the sequel as nearly all Jedi were nobodies who became heroes, and Rey already has a family in the Resistance.

The subversive elements can be thought-provoking but it ultimately moves very little of what was established beforehand in TFA, not helped by the film ending with the slave kids rather than say, the rest of the Resistance or Leia becoming Rey's new Jedi Master. Because TLJ refuses to be the second part of a trilogy (ironically like Luke in this sequel) and instead tries to be a critic darling by deconstructing the mythos of Star Wars, the third film suffers greatly for it no matter what JJ Abrams does. TROS at least explored more of the Dark Side of the Force through Sith cultists, gave Rey proper training (under Leia), giving Rey a serious Force usage mistake, and remembering that Finn used to be a Stormtrooper. Granted, that's minimal and the plot was haphazard but it really makes me wish Rian Johnson focused on these story elements rather than just to be a commentary about failure.

Meta commentary has its place in Star Wars as long as they advance the overall story. For example, the prequels used politics to not simply critique the real world but also to highlight how Palpatine wormed his way into power and became Emperor. So the theme of failure would have been better suited with Finn trying (and failing) to start a Stormtrooper uprising, Poe trying (and failing) to win all the battles he could, Rey trying (and failing) to redeem Kylo Ren, etc. Focusing on one subversive theme rather than many enables a more flexible story.

I'll agree that The Last Jedi is a better film but The Rise of Skywalker has the better Star Wars narrative (minus Reylo kissing).

 

I know, and before TLJ, TPM was my least favorite SW movie.

 

I don't know what you mean with better Star Wars narrative. There is barely a narrative in TROS. I would agree that it is more entertaining than TLJ, and functions better as a sequel. TLJ massively fails as a sequel, for the reasons you pointed out.

But the other day I rewatched TLJ and I just came to believe that it's not just a better movie than TROS - it's a better Star Wars movie. Yep. Even if it sucks as a sequel.

I once wrote in these forums how TLJ feels more like a thesis on SW than an actual SW movie, and while I do still feel partly that way (all that meta commentary is just obnoxious), I still can see more of George Lucas inspiration in TLJ than I can see in either TFA or TROS. The latter sure look more SW than TLJ does. On a superficial level. I mean, JJ is pretty good at copy&paste and he has no original style of his own (unless Bigger & Faster is a style). But I agree with the critic that described TROS as a "zombie" of the franchise. The movie is just a vapid collection of "This would be sooo coool in SW!!1!"" moments. There is no attempt to explore themes, no effort in developing ideas, no interest in messages or bringing something new to the table. It’s thematically shallow and narratively moronic.

Rian Johnson’s Star Wars is preachy, pretentious and too cynical for what should've been a simple fairy tale. But it’s also the closest to a Lucas’ Star Wars movie out of the 3. It actually attempts to explore the same cinematography influences that also inspired Lucas, including even Kurosawa homages. It makes an effort to bring back the thematic depth of SW that was sorely missed in TFA, and subvert expectations like TESB and even the prequels once did - even though it went too far in that area. Luke Skywalker being not this OP demi-god (like Abrams portrayed him in TROS), but a disillusioned, flawed master, is far closer to George Lucas’ portrayal of the Jedi (conceptually, Yoda was also the same). The problem of TLJ is the puzzling execution of these concepts. I can definitely see Lucas writing a script for a movie that includes a disillusioned Luke; I can’t however see Lucas writing Luke being disillusioned because he considered murdering his own fricking nephew.

But yeah, my point is, I can see a director who was earnestly influenced by George Lucas (and respects the prequels) in TLJ. Even if said director often finds somewhat obnoxious ways to express himself. I cannot see that in JJ Abrams' made-for-corporate-money movies. I can only see a guy who thought ANH was rad.

 

The Rise of Skywalker has considerable flaws, but I will pick that over The Last Jedi any day. Even putting aside the controversial use of Luke Skywalker in TLJ, most characters felt either rewritten or poorly used (C-3PO, R2-D2, and Chewbacca being severely underused in particular). Plus, if the ending left a more tangible cliffhanger, among other things that didn't sit right with me, it would have softened the blow the subsequent problems of TROS.

While I've made no secret that the pacing of TROS heavily detracted from the movie, but the characters (Original and Sequel Trilogy alike) felt more on point. C-3PO is far more relevant to the plot and Chewbacca felt more actively a part of the crew and even had my favorite emotional moment in the movie, which was his reaction to Leia's death. I don't think JJ Abrams has the best writing as far as plot and story goes, but he does a great job with character interaction, especially since this was the first movie where our main trio shared the screen together.

 

Narrative in that has some idea of moving the story that TFA sets up. And when I say Star Wars, I mean the overall Skywalker Saga. And it goes to show you just how close these two films in terms of my ranking.

TROS has a lot of potential themes that Lucas would have followed, namely that bloodlines don't define you and that you can choose your family (as Lucas himself is known to have adopted children). The issue is that it never lets these themes settle into people's heads because of the fast-paced editing and spectacle. Yet at the same time, I feel like the themes TROS raised have more relevance to Rey and Finn's arcs than what Rian Johnson chose for TLJ. The whole Canto Bight subplot could have been cut and replaced with Finn trying to start a Stormtrooper Uprising for instant. If TLJ was a standalone film, then obviously it would be better than TROS. But due to being the second chapter, it's difficult to say it's better than TROS because TROS at least has the beating heart of training that was absent in TLJ.

 

TLJ is abomination. TROS saved the trilogy from complete ruin.

 

I know that it is somewhat boring for people to talk about their dreams, but I used to have a recurring one whereby I am watching the "new" Star Wars movie in a cinema, and it is really, really bad. Like, nightmarish levels of bad, where everything you wouldn't want to happen, does in fact happen.

The Last Jedi was a realisation of that for me. The one thing I dreaded happening was Luke not leaving that island and therefore not interacting with the rest of the story. The "projection" felt like a cheat to me. Whilst I appreciate that it wasn't Luke's story, and that he is in fact the "Yoda" of this installment, it still left me really deflated.

The problem was expectation. To me Han, Luke and Leia are Star Wars, I am far less invested in the Prequel characters, and the Sequel (new) characters. I think that the OT three had one last hurrah in them before the transition to the newer characters to take the franchise forward, and I think that is where the makers of these films messed up.

If TFA had been one more adventure for the three of them, I think that it would have been far easier to let go of them and segue into the new cast to take the story forward into episodes 8 and 9.

When I remember this, I feel a bit sad for what could have been...



However, TROS does go some way to tidying up the mess for me, but the damage was already done.

 

Understood - I guess the difference in the two scenes for me is that Solo doing it felt more realistic. It also didnt last as long. Poes "Ill hold" comment was like in this hi-tech universe when have they ever been told to please hold? I dunno. The Poe scene went on too long as well. Too much of a tension killer. Not all of the humor in TLJ was bad but that early scene didnt work for me.

 

Being on hold reminded me of when the Falcon approaches Bespin.

 

Maybe. Ill till take my Han Solo humor over that Poe stuff.

 

To be clear... so will I.

Although, I absolutely adore Issac’s delivery of the lines on Kimiji when he says (and I paraphrase):

FINN: You were a spice runner?
POE: You were a Storm trooper?!
You were a scavenger?!

His delivery of that and the look on his face gets me every time.

 

I can't decide. I dislike them both.

 

TROS has Lando in it

 

I see very little in TROS as a rebuke against TLJ (which does a much better job of developing its themes and characters). But hey, fan bias is going to dictate whatever it wants at this point.

 

It's also the 'Used Universe', so there have always been some retro elements.

 

easily TROS!

 

They are terrible Star Wars movies and don’t deserve to be part of the universe for me, I wonder if GL has a gagging order.

 

I do agree that TLJ had a sense of finality to it that would have made making IX harder to anyone who'd take on the task, but I'd also argue TLJ did leave plenty of potential plot hooks for an Episode IX that JJ didn't even try to continue (whereas I think RJ at least did try to follow wha was setup in TFA, although VERY misguidedly). It just wasn't as explicit as TFA which ended on such a crazy cliffhanger.

For the bad guys:
-Kylo as supreme leader, becoming unhinged, being haunted by Luke
-Kylo vs. Hux

the good guys:
-the resistance rebuilding their forces after being decimated
-Building on that^, the galaxy rising up against oppression and being inspired by Luke was an entire element TLJ introduced that coulda been continued in an interesting story for IX. To go even further, Rey could have been recruiting young force sensitives. And look, I don't like Finn's TLJ plot either but it absolutely could have thematically led to him doing the stormtrooper rebellion in that vein of the masses rising up. Based on the deleted scene, RJ clearly had it in mind when he was crafting Finn's story.

In fact, I think the big element of TLJ that JJ did keep around and embellish, the force skyping, was absolutely one of the best parts of the movie.

TROS did have "the people" coming in at the end, sure, but it happened extremely easily and with no real buildup or work by the principle characters. And it's a shame, because the idea of the masses being tired of the constant cycle of war and authoritarianism would have been a neat way to tie up the "war" storyline of SW across the 9 films.

 

Thanks for sharing. Which one do you prefer though?

 

Is Neither an option?

 

Nope. You can actually see all of the option in the poll above and in the title of thread. This thread is for feedback on whether people prefer TLJ or TROS.