ST The Rise of Skywalker - Reviews/Reactions Thread (See Warning On Page 98)

Becuse it meant the fleet was sitting ducks for them to destroy - which was the whole point of disabling the nav singal in the first place

Becuse, as has been said, the nav beacon was for getting out of the planet's atomosphere, not leaving the system. The star destroyers are perfectly capable of doing the latter alone, as we see with the Derriphan

This

I actually thought up but neglected to bring up myself; the Star Destroyers were packed closely together (virtually side-to-side) and their were hundreds of them in a storm-choked atomosphere. One or two ships could have probobly gotten out along (which would have taken time), but moving as one group they would need to be carefully coordinated and control. Presumably their using someing like the slave circuits from TTT.

Fatal, yes, but in Qi-Gon's case it was immedatly fatal, were as it would have only been fatal for Kylo if he had just been left alone for a bit; a agian, a stab clean through the heart is worse then a maybe-punctured lung, even though both will kill you without treatment

A regular, real Earth hospital would'nt have much issue saving Kylo's life, but they'd have to have been insanely lucky to be able to react fast enough to save Qui-Gon.

I suppose to be it's becuse i don't see the new abilities as a problem at all; not only do i not have to reach when i ralationise it but with the exception of teleporation all the abilities in the film have been common parts of the elements of Star Wars that I've had the most exposure to over the years. Maybe i'm just more accepting of heal (and drain for that matter) becuse the use of the ability did'nt suprise me at all?.

Yes, but Anakin clearly did'nt know he could revive her from the dead like that - if he did'nt he would'nt have asked Palpatine if their was a way to prevent someone from dying or would have just focused on finding a way to prevent himself from dying as well - and even if Yoda knew it's doubtful he would have told him. Keep in mind his actual words in that scene.

"Death is a natural part of life. Rejoice for those around you who transform into the Force. Mourn them do not. Miss them do not."

Does that sound like someone who would advocate reving the recently-deceased?

Assuming they even knew that revival was an application of healing. And Yoda at least would'nt do it, based on everything we know of him.

Ah, but this assuming that is a fundemental force ability. It could be, but it could very will be something Dark Siders can't do becuse of the way they draw from the Force. And even if they can use it their idology and mindset would mean they'd rarely, if ever, be willing to sacrafice bits of their own life force to heal others - let along themselves.

Kylo's wound was a burn wounds that did'nt look particuler savere and it was'nt that big - the most Rey did was seal his wounds and heal his skin, more or less the same thing she did with the snake earlier. Anakin was missing limbs and third-degree burns over most of his body. And chosen one means jack-**** about power (although Anakin was very powerful) it just means he was prophasied to restore balance to the Force. And even if he could heal himself how would he? The only way i can see force healing work on yourself is if you shift a bit of your life force from one area of your body to anouther, but with how severe his wounds were how could he have even done that without killing himself?

Agian, the only person who outright re-grows body parts is Palpatine, by force draining the life force directly from two powerful force sensatives.

Well, considering Rey dos'nt have "Jedi level" skills in the TFA i'd say theirs not much of problem here.

She force-pulls a lightsaber too her and mindtricks one guy (a random mook, and even that takes her three trys). The most impressive thing she does is turn the tide on Kylo (after he been kicking her ass for virtually the entire fight, BTW) but even that was due to just letting go and trusting the Force to guide her (the same thing Luke does at the end of ANH, and his "training" was at most a few hours long and amounted to doing a poor job of blocking laser blasts with a blindfold on)

I have the same problem, honestly. But as we've only seen Kylo and Rey use the force this way (and even then only with each other) the most likly expleation i can come with is its just due to their dyad, as a simple force bond was able to allow them to pysically touch each other in TLJ.

The only other teleporation we've seen involves peaple reducing their bodies to energy and moving themselves from one place to anouther, and honestly that seemed more like Harry Potter apperation or Dragon Age fade stepping then actual "teleporation" like we see in TROS, so its seems as likely and explation as any

 

Sure, I get that but again it’s dumb. Just go up. You don’t need a beacon for that. It’s poor storytelling. You might have to wait your turn but really it’s not that difficult.

 

And it’s weird that getting through the atmosphere is such a big deal for the capital ships, but the Resistance ones can get in and out fine. I don’t buy that they could have reset the nav signal on surface. The signal had been routed away from the nav tower to the Star Destroyer, which had been blown up.

 

But the nav tower itself, was only minimally damaged.

 

Have you ever seen a real world port? How the small boats just go doing their own navigation, while the big ships need a port pilot to take over to do the in-port navigation and docking?

Sometimes the big ships have to wait hours for the tide, so they can clear the bottom of the port channel.

To sum up, closely packed ships in a port-like scenario need coordination to leave. This is very realistic.

 

Not to mention it was hundreds of 2000+ mile long ships in an atomosphere choked with storms and heavy wind. I don't know what the port (or airport) with the worst conditions on earth is but whatever it is its nowhere near as bad as Exegol was in this situtation. Like theirs a reason planes get grounded in heavy wind and during severe storms.

Hell, in Fallen Order they make a point of how hard it is to land on Zeffo becuse of the wind, and the conditions their are'nt even close to being half as bad as what we see on Exegol.

 

But Qui-Gon's wound wasn't 'immediately fatal'... "train the boy, he is the chosen one". But anyway, the point is that both Qui-Gon and Kylo received fatal injuries. One was healed.

The force abilities aren't a problem in and of themselves. It's fiction, they can make them what they want. I don't have an issue with a Jedi having the ability to resuscitate or heal a 'flesh wound'. But it's when they are viewed within the wider context of the previous films that, having the ability to stop someone from dying (or bringing someone back from the dead) becomes problematic and incongruous to key themes within Lucas' films. And it's a problem with the ST generally (IMHO), because they are kind of written within a vacuum, where not enough attention is paid to what went before. But that's just my opinion.

Yep - I wasn't arguing that Anakin had that power, as portrayed in ROTS. I think Lucas was at pains to demonstrate this is something a Jedi can't do... and shouldn't seek to do (which was part of the wider problem I have with it in TROS). I was questioning why Anakin wouldn't have that power, given that the ST doesn't establish that demarcation?

And that's the problem. The writing doesn't establish any of that. Maybe it's only a force power you have on a Wednesday afternoon? But that it isn't established raises the questions that I've been posing.... which can only really be answered with 'who knows'? Which isn't usually an indication of great writing.

Well technically Anakin had the highest midi-count, so he should be able to do everything any other force user can do. But re. Kylo's wounds, that's largely suposition on your part. He was shot by Chewie's crossbow and still managed to duel with lightsabres etc. When he's wounded by Rey, in TROS, he doesn't fight on or jump over a fence... he seems pretty finished. The intention of that specific scene seems to be that Rey is healing his fatal injury. But I guess we'll have to wait for the novel to come out to confirm if that was the intention or not.

I'd say being able to do a Jedi mind trick (which is usually what that skill is referred to), force pulling lightsabers and going toe to toe with Kylo Ren in lightsaber combat pretty much trumps anything that's been established in any Star Wars film or cartoon ever, in terms of an untrained Jedi/Sith. Arguing that it isn't is, with all due respect, splitting hairs.

Again, I just think it's Abrams trying to needlessly up the anti... and that the whole Dyad thing is somewhat understated/underwritten, just makes for a 'huh?' moment. Would the film have been any worse if they'd not been imbued Rey/Kylo with that power? It would have, IMO, had much more emotional weight if the force ghost of Anakin, Luke or Leia would have gotten the sabre to Kylo. I would have willingly suspended disbelief for that kind of force ghost intervention in the film.

 

With Qui-Gon the damage was worse and the truma more immedate. He was barely alive by the time Obi-Wan finished with Maul, were as Kylo was just laying their seemingly going into shock and would'nt have dropped dead as immedatly as QGJ if Rey had just, you know, walked off.

Becuse they don't need to? We know A; Kylo revives Rey. B; Anakin evidently dos'nt know he can do that and C; when Anakin asks Sidious if its possible to learn how to save others from certian death he's told "not from a Jedi. Put A, B and C together and the most logical conculsion (really the only conculsion) is that the old Jedi either did'nt know, or actitivly suppressed the knowladge behind, that particuler application of Force healing and that either Luke did'nt see a problem in teaching it to Ben or Ben either learned it on his own or lucked his way into doing it based on desperation.

Keep in mind that Rey, who learned about healing from Luke's books, never mentioned anything about outright revival and was visibly suprised when she relized Ben brought her back to life.

No, but we can sumise as much based on what we know of the Force, the Light/Dark Side and the basic idology of the Jedi and Sith

And it was classafied as a light side power in plenty of EU sources; K1 and K2 and the Jedi Knight games, for instance - and that's not just gameplay thats from actual dilogue stressing a clear divide between light and dark side powers. So if that's how it was in the old canon, it's not that hard to imagine that's how it will be established in the new canon as well when they get around to it.

Star Wars is'nt an Anime with power levels. Mediclorians (as far as we know) don't decide how powerful you are, their just some convident means someone can use to get a reading on the strength of your connection to the Force. Like, Yoda has less the Anakin but when is Anakin ever shown to be stronger then Yoda?

I never said it was'nt fatal, just that it was'nt as severe as Qui-Gons, and we can see that much just from looking at how bad their wounds, let alone the placement of them on their bodies.

1; Mind tricks are never established to be hard to do, and anytime we ever see them done its with cuasual ease so long as the target in qestion is sufficently weak-mind. Rey likly was just aware such an ability existed (she knows what Jedi are, after all) and decided to see if she could do it becuse it was the only possible recorse she could see.
2; Luke pulls a lightsaber to him in the Force in ESB without any real training (his "training" as far as we know consisted of blocking lasers with Obi-Wan and reading a book, not actual experiance) and Cal in Fallen Order (as a child) pulls his lightsaber to him for the first time with his only instruction being his master telling him to try and do it. Just reacing out a pulling something as small as a lightsaber towards you dos'nt seem to be that hard, as long as you focus on doing.
3; There was no "toe to toe" - Rey got her ass kicked - she spent 90 percent of the fight just running away and barely managing to block his blows. She only beat him becuse she let go, trusted in the force and let it take over control. Luke does the same thing when he makes his "one in a million" shot in ANH, why is it beliviable there but not here?
4; it pretty much trumps anything? What about Anakin's force-assisted driving that he was doing as a ten year old? That he was'nt even aware that he was doing? Or Luke's beforementioned torpedo shot?

 

Force heal and Force drain are abilities previously established in old canon (Legends), but now brought to movies they indeed create weird situations. I think that Rey learned many things from the old jedi books and Luke and Leia that were not part of the knowledge jedi relied on PT and OT-era. Luke found ancient jedi relics that were lost by the order long before. This explains how Rey can now perform force healing in a way jedi in the fall of the old republic era were unable to do. Obi-Wan was padawan in episode I so it's probable force healing was not his specialty and Qui-Gon received fatal wound to his heart which is probably harder to heal than any flesh wound, since when heart is damaged it also damages brain etc. due to lack of oxygen and Qui-Gon was dying for a long time when Obi-Wan tried to defeat Maul gaining extensive damage to his body and being beyond of healing abilities of Obi-Wan who was probably pretty out of stamina anyway. Kylo Received wound to his lung and muscles, maybe some ribs. Rey started healing almost immediately before damage became too widespread. Also a strong connection (dyad) between them, made healing easier for sure. It is bit problematic, but somewhat acceptable IMHO.

Force drain is also quite problematic, but since Palpatine also has knowledge of ancient sith techniques I can accept that he is much stronger than before. Palpatine makes it clear that only Dyad has powerful Force energy enough to revive him fully and he is himself surprised how lucky he is. It's not that good writing though IMO but TROS has a lot of these "patched plotholes". They are weird moments that are simply made acceptable by saying "This is the thing now" and viewer is like "okay.... I guess".

Same thing with navigational signal and stuff, it appears to make no sense at all, but it's patched by saying "we have to do this because there are reasons" and since they don't really explain conditions clearly it's hard to analyze the situation. Conditions of entering and leaving atmosphere of Exogol are very weird and don't seem consistent to me. It really shows no one established any rules they need to follow, they just made up lines that sound cool. Like when Pryde says "use ion cannons"... no one launches any ion cannons. It is okay for casual viewer who don't remember what ion cannons are.

About midi-chlorian counts. Are Rey's or Kylos counts even established anywhere? They can be even higher than Anakin's or about the same. In TPM they are not even born. Obi-Wan also mentions the counts he knows.

 

I thought this was weird too, but its possible their just green ion cannons or even ion-disruptors (which do both electronic and pysical damage). Or perhaps (though this is far less likely) Pyrde was just giving orders to the Steadfast's crew in that particuler situation rather then the rest of the fleet and the other captians gave the order to fire independently of each other.

It was more then likly a case of the script saying Ion Cannons and the VX deparment simply not relizing the color was supposed to be whitish-blue and not green.

 

Weird is not so much the color (rebels ion cannon shot looks red/orange in ESB) but the effect. They see explosions instead of engines shutting down. Clearly they are not using ion cannons of any color

 

At that point in the battle the only Resistance capital ship was the Tantive IV. The rest were fighters. Capital-grade ion cannons should still be powerful enough to destroy as small enough craft outright if only through the sheer amount of energy within - if i shoot a fly with a beanbag round that fly is still getting annilated even though what i shot him with is normally non-lethal, simply becuse he's not an equviliant being to what that round was intended for

And agian, they may have just been ion disruptors. Or even a new type of ion cannon modified to do additional psycial damage (like the Breen energy weapons in DS9)

 

Hmmm maybe. I'm not that familiar with Star Trek. It still seems that line was written without any thought what ion cannons have been before in SW

 

That could very well still be the case (and honestly i think theirs a lot of that in this movie). I don't see that as any reason to not try to find logical explanations from an "in-universe" prespective, however

And anyway i was wrong about the Star Trek analogy so its good you did'nt understand in hindsight - i just rewatched the scene in qestion that i was thinking up and the "ion cannon"-like weapon is a diffrent color then the pulses they use later to deal actual damage (the first is pure white and the second is whitish-green). So everybody disregard that i used it as an example, lol

 

So if palps is a clone why didn’t whomever cloned him make more ... and if force power can be tranfered to clones why not make an army of palps ... and if he is not a clone i see no reason to believe he died from a little force lightening when he survived exploding in the death star

And if rey is a good gal who can force lightening then why can’t jedi force lightening ... why doesn’t kylo force lightening ...

I find it idiotic to believe the outer rim destroyers could not move break off shoot their cannon or other weapons ... its like watching scream or any typical horror movies where it only works if the characters make unbelievably stupid decisions over and over ... and on top of it we are to believe this sith of supreme knowledge and power is so dumb as to force lightening himself into oblivion cmon

 

Honestly Sheev's entire fleet and the set up makes no sense in-general.

 

Yes... It could've been written so much better. Having a secret fleet of ships with new tech somewhere waiting is not that bad idea IMO, but sudden appearance of fully-manned star destroyers with death star -sort of super-guns that just rise through the surface of the planet (looks cool but makes very little sense) but cannot leave the atmosphere without Macguffin- signal is not very good writing no matter how you look at it.

I accept idea of miniaturized death star tech, but it could've been less extreme like if 8 destroyers together would have formed the superlaser, not just one ship alone, it would've been a bit more believable really.

 

Sure. But the Resistance has giant ships too.

@Iron_lord

So how did they manage to restore that same signal, then? Was it still sitting in the tower even though it has been rerouted to the other ship? Who didn’t the sith reroute the nav signal to all of the Star Destroyers in the first place, rather than just have one tower responsible for leading the fleet out?

 

Becuse following the clone theory and based on Dark Empire, it would be his spiritual essence in a cloned body; more clones would just be an army of powerless Palpatine copies.

And he definitly did'nt survive the Death Star, becuse he flat out says as much

She used it as an uncautious reflex while fustrated and angry - she did'nt intend to.

As for Jedi not being able to do it, well Dooku does it at least twice in the audiobook that came out last year and both times were well before he left the order and fell to the Dark Side (the first time, like Rey, was unintential). So clearly its not an ability that Light Siders are incapable of using, just one they don't tend to utalize for obvious reason. (and in legends it was'nt even that uncommon for Jedi to use it on occasion; of the top of my head Kyle Katarn, Plo Koon and even *gasp* Luke all use it at one point or anouther)

Why does'nt Maul? Or Savage? Or the Grand Inquisitor? Or Anakin after he fell to the DS but before he lost his hands?

Maybe it just was'nt Kylo's style. He's a very pysical fighter, after all.

Shoot their main cannons at what? They can only fire forward and their on the bottom of the ships, while all the big targets were attacking them from above. As for their other weapons i'm pretty sure they were still firing those even as they were being destroyed.

And they explecitly state that without the beacon the fleet could not move.

It would still be in the computer memory. The beacon was the original source of the single, after all. As for the ships not being able to do it on their own i would think the reason would be clear - they had to coordinate their movement. Each ship trying to rise on its own but at the same time as all the others is a recipe for disaster.

They needed to go up one by one, and for that they needed a single unit (be it the beacon below them or a single ship above them) to guide them out simultaniusly

Them being fully-manned is'nt really a problem; assuming Exegol's population is anything like that of Earth their should be more then enough able-bodied adults to account for the crews of a few hundred star destroyers - even if their crew is in the double-digit thousands. And that's assuming a poriton of their crews are'nt droids or the ships are'nt largly automated or something

 

I get that they needed to go up one by one. But I don’t get why they can’t all have access to the nav signal. Why does it have to come from a single source?

 

It works the same way as an ILS signal does in an airport runway. A single signal. More than one for the same runway is impossible and would create chaos.

All you need to know is that they said it needs a single signal source. If that is what the movie said, it is the ultimate explanation. One can try to compare to the real-world like I did to find plausible explanations, but it is not a requirement.

 

Which makes no sense since all of those of those good guy ships could get through with ease. It basically amounts to, "they're too stupid to know what way up is."

The whole thing was just a contrived lazy excise to have the good guys b able to win a battle that they shouldn't have. From the very first scene Sheev's fleet makes no sense and it never stops not making sense.

 

It's less then don't know which was is up and more they need guidance to go up safely without, you know, crashing into each other.

Those ships are over two-thousand meters long. Do you know how hard it is to fly a 747 out of an airport in heavy storm and wind conditions without gudiance?

So...just like the Battle of Endor then?

They actually probobly could have gone up one by one without using the beacon (though it would still require their crew to be very careful and would still be a lot easier/safer with the beacon). They were carrying out a coordinated luanch, though, hence why they needed a single source to guide them all up

 

Clearly this thread is now past its expiration date. The film is out in the world and we've all given our reviews and reactions so time to lock it up.