PT Analysis of Mace Windu's plan to overthrow Palpatine

Ah yeah, that's right. Still, Mace wasn't fully prepared.

Palpatine was counting on things going pretty much as they played out. I think he foresaw Anakin would turn up at some stage whether Mace brought him or not. He is much more confident in the chosen one than Mace appears to be, and it proves to be Mace's undoing.

 

The strike team that Windu brought weren't slouches, they were some of the best duelists in the entire order during that period. Mace himself was considered second to Yoda in lightsaber dueling/power. He felt that his team was confident enough to take on Sidious 4 on 1.

However, little did they know they were going to face the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the galaxy. They had no idea how powerful Sidious was overall; with the only thing they knew was that he hid from them right under their noses for the past 13 years. They did not expect him to be as fast, fierce and skilled as he was or to come at them as directly as he did.

I think at the time that Anakin arrived at the duel, the fate of the galaxy fell into his hands. Both Mace and Sidious were attempting to sway Anakin to their own side. Who would Anakin choose? As we all know, Anakin chose Sidious, and as soon as Anakin sliced off Mace's hand, the Jedi Order's fate was sealed.

 

I think that the film utterly failed to suggest what you wrote above. The three yahoos with Mace looked totally incompetent due to some very clumsy choreography. They look like they are thinking "Durrr... how does this light stick work?? Oh I am dead!!"
Or they are using the ancient Jedi defense technique of "Standing there and letting your opponent kill you."

It failed to make Palpatine look impressive and only made them look like they failed the first lightsaber lesson.
The fight with Mace is little better and is slow and clumsy and both fighters leave themselves open to attacks more than once.
In short, it is terrible. To me.

As for being prepared.
They knew that Dooku, the apprentice to Sidious, managed to go one on one with Yoda. So he was no slouch. And he was just the apprentice.
Not being ready for a fight? That paints them as idiots as well.

If they couldn't get the fight to look good, which to me it most certainly didn't, then have Palpatine beat them by sheer power instead. He yanks their lightsaber out of their hands and kills two of them, he kills the third by crushing him with the Force and only Mace is strong enough to beat back those powers and then Palpatine fights him by controlling the three lightsabers from a distance.
Or something like that.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

Oh I def. agree with you. When I first saw the movie back in 2005 I thought, "Wow, the Jedi that Mace brought with him suck!" It wasn't until the past year or so that I really got into Star Wars that I actually read the (Legends) background of Fisto, Tiin, and Kolar, and how well regarded they were as duelists. Sidious killing the 3 Jedi in rapid succession was supposed to show how fast he was, but to the casual movie goer they'll just see the 3 Jedi killed as incompetent.

 

I agree with you about how casual viewers probably saw the film.

I don't read much if any EU so I don't much care about it. I care about what is in the films, end of story.

But what you describe kind of makes the film scene even worse.
If they are the Best of the Best of the Best, and they do that pitiful showing?
Then I would think, "Wow regular Jedi must REALLY suck at this if these three knuckle-heads are the best they have got."

It might make better sense if those three were back at Coruscant because their skills were not with the lightsabre. That all the really good fighters were out on the front lines.
So Mace had to make do with what he had.

But really to me it looked like Mace grabbed a janitor and two dishwashers in the temple, gave them lightsabers and told them "You are Jedi Masters now, I need a posse, come with me."

Bye for now.
The Guarding Dark

 

Ok that made me laught out loud, lol!

 

Mace Windu did the best he could with what he had at the time. And his plan almost worked. If Anakin hadn't shown up at that moment, Darth Sidious would likely have died and the Sith Order would have died with him. The only thing Mace could have done better is to have waited for Yoda to return, so they could tag-team Palpatine. Mace and Yoda were the only ones who could compete with Darth Sidious. Alone, they both failed. Together, they would have succeeded. But time was running out, and had Mace waited, Palpatine could very well have executed Order 66. Or he would have just interdicted Kashyyyk and prevented Yoda from returning. Mace had very few options at that point. He took the one he thought would let him end the Sith quickly and quietly.

 

Let's see.... The last remaining Sith Lord fighting against 4 JEDI MASTERS led by Windu, resulting in Sith lord defeating and killing all 4 JEDI MASTERS.... Hmmm, brilliant plan by Windu, I guess.

 

Eh... the plan was pretty solid. 4 Masters should be enough to deal with most things, unfortunately for Mace though Sidious had Plot and terrible choreography on his side to balance the scales.

 

Yeah, those 2 "Masters" and members of Council went out like *******. At least Kit Fisto fought for 3 seconds. ♡

 

I agree with you that Palpatine had considered several alternatives and had plans for them.
1. Anakin turns right there and then when Palpatine lets him know who he is.
Then they can go to work on the Jedi.
2. Anakin tries attacking. Papatine was confident that he could take him and if Anakin gives in to anger, he could turn from that.
3. Anakin leaves and Mace recalls the Jedi. Palpatine can block that or do order 66 early.

Where I somewhat disagree is what Mace's plan was.
He went to arrest Palpatine, not kill him.
He was still in arrest mode even after Palpatine had killed the other Jedi and tried to kill him.
Only after the Force lightning did Mace switch from arrest to kill.

What would have happened if Palpatine had let himself be arrested is anyone's guess. I doubt he would have but say Mace had managed to knock him out and arrest him that way. Then it could get interesting.

As for what Mace should have done. Take five minutes and warn the other Jedi would be no 1.
Talk to Yoda and make some sort of plan would be no 2.
Since Mace has no evidence beyond Anakin's words, did he think this would stick in court?

What he might have done is to do what he planned to do, inform Palpatine that Griev was dead and that he should now give up his extra powers. Maybe he could have a few senators with him when he tells Palpatine this. If Palpatine refuses in front of senators, this could cost him some support.
Mace could then leave and make other plans.
Taking to some senators that he feels he can trust might also have been a good idea.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

The actual plan to arrest Palpatine was solid enough, taking a posse of Masters along with him makes sense... but he really, REALLY should have told other people what he'd just learned. Tell sympathetic senators, tell other Jedi, get the news out there and then no matter what happens when he actually confronts Palpatine there's others who can react accordingly. He'd put himself in a corner because with him being the only one that knows he HAD to beat Palpatine, and then when things escalated it was his own fault that he was in the position of HAVING to kill Palpatine - because no-one else knew what he did. And that's on Mace.

 

Indeed, they were expecting another Dooku, old but an elegant duelist, a fencer, not ferocious or wild. He pretty much take them by surprise in the first move.

 

I came across this old thread, while searching for quotes from "Revenge of the Sith". The first post stated the following:

I just want to say a few things. One, Mace was right to order Anakin to remain in the Jedi Council chamber. He had accurately sensed Anakin's state of mind. The latter should have done what he was ordered to do. Some say that Anakin would have never become a Sith, if Mace had allowed him to join in the arrest of Palpatine. I don't agree. There was no real guarantee on what Anakin would have done if he had accompanied Mace and the other Jedi to the Chancellor's office.

I agree that Mace and the other three Jedi had no right to try to arrest Palpatine without informing the Senate.

However, I believe that Mace's initial intention was to simply arrest Palpatine. When the latter managed to kill the other three Jedi who had accompanied, he wrongly decided to kill the Chancellor instead. Yoda, on the other hand, made the equally bad decision to go to the new Emperor's office with the intention to kill the latter. Again, without informing the Senate.

I never understood why a good number of the Star Wars fandom were willing to criticize Mace for his actions in "Revenge of the Sith", and sweep Yoda's actions under the rug.

 

What blasphemy is this?

 

The literal text of the film?

 

He means my OP.

I don’t hold that opinion anymore by the way.

@Darkslayer
Forgive me, Master

 

Actually, Mace didn't even decide to kill Palpatine at that point either. He still told Palpatine that he was arrested after sweeping Palpatine's lightsaber out of his hands and forcing him to the ground. Palpatine then refused to give up, throwing lightning at Mace, and only when Mace had managed to regain control of that situation - which he barely was able to - did he decide that keeping Palpatine alive was too dangerous. And that was sort of true, he never would have been able to keep him firmly under control, even when disregarding Palpatine's influence on others.

In a way, this was more or less a dilemma. On the one hand killing someone is the morally wrong choice, on the other hand, Palpatine had just killed multiple Jedi and tried to kill Mace as well, even when technically disarmed, he was neither defenseless nor had he actually surrendered. There isn't always a good choice available. Take those who tried to kill Hitler in 1944 (or any other case for that matter). Was what they were doing illegal? Heck yes. Would it have involved killing quite a few people without court order? Of course. Would it have been better if they had informed the "proper authorities" of their plan beforehand? Of course not. Sometimes you are left with doing something morally wrong or letting evil succeed, with the latter most likely causing a whole lot more morally questionable to downright evil things to happen than is the case with going ahead with the former.

 

Basically, Mace took the three worst Jedi to accomplish this goal. If he had taken Obi-Wan, Shaak Ti, and Yoda, they would not have accomplished any apprehension of Palpatine. But Yoda and Mace would defeated Sidious at the cost of the lives of Obi-Wan and Shaak. The Clone Wars would have devolved into a three-way war possibly, but without Sidious controlling the loyalists in the Republic and the CIS, this war wouldn't have lasted too long.

 

I remember a similar thread a few years back, but my stance then still hasn't changed...

Mace and the whole Jedi Order were screwed. Cause they decided to circumvent the lawfully elected Chancellor of the Republic. Even as he was actively seeking to undermine the Republic, Mace had no real proof other than he could sense the Dark Side surrounding the Chancellor, then Anakin tells him that Sheev is Sidious. There definitely should have been an arrest and trial, where everything would eventually be revealed. But once Mace decided to kill Sidious, it became exactly what Sidious said - treason. Mace and the Jedi decided on their own to remove the legitimately elected leader of the Republic at best, assassinate him at worst, and take control of the Senate for themselves until a "peaceful transition" took place. But how long would that be? What defines it? When the next Chancellor is elected, or someone they decree should be in charge? And remember Sheev had a lot of support in the Senate. Would those Senators stand idly by? Just let the Jedi call the shots? And what of those who disagreed? Have them removed forcibly from office,or was Mace gonna cut them down too?

No matter what Sidious won. Because if the Jedi had been successful in either arrest or assassination, the credibility of the Jedi in not only the Senate but the Republic itself was going to be compromised. You would have had civil war without end like Sidious told Anakin, cause I truly believe the Senate(which was majority-wise under the control and influence of Palpatine) would declare war against the Jedi and set the Grand Army of the Republic against them. And I can easily see a major call to reinstate Palpatine if he was still alive.

I feel Order 66 would have happened either way, only it would've been the Senate enacting it themselves rather than Palpatine.

 

It's Palpatine's dual role—as a Sith lord and as the Chancellor of the Republic—that makes it difficult for the Jedi to act against him: they're damned if they do, and damned if they don't. Notice how nobody made a squeak about Obi-Wan killing Darth Maul: everyone in the know accepted that Maul was a Sith lord and hence it was all right for the Jedi, the group that had knowledge of dealing with the Sith, to take him out. In Palpatine's case, however, the Jedi are no longer given this usual discretion in dealing with a Sith lord, because Palpatine is the Chancellor of the Republic, a person who, if he is punished, must be done so in a public way. On the other hand, a Sith lord is the furthest you can get from the kind of person who will let things happen the way one would desire...

 

Something I have always wondered myself weather it was illegal for Palpatine to be a Sith Lord and Supreme Chancellor in legends the answer was yes as the Republic had no laws against religion so long as they didn’t harm others, but in canon I think the Sith “religion” was illegal as their language was illegal as said by C3PO. So Mace had grounds to arrest him on that alone.

Now if he wanted to succeed he probably should have brought more Jedi.

 

At this point in time,only 2 Jedi have defeated a Sith Lord in the last 1,000 years - Obi-Wan and Anakin. They send Kenobi away and refuse to allow Anakin to come with them. and Yoda was also off planet as well. Sidious played it perfectly, making sure the 3 Jedi that Mace SHOULD have had with him would not be available.

 

There you have it. mace Windu underestimated the Chancellor's dark side power. Although I do think (contrary to some fan readings) that he could have killed Palpatine had Anakin not intervened.