ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

In a meta sense it was for the benafit of the audience, while in an in-universe sense it was becuse Kylo was bullying an emotionaly distrught and in deniel Rey into echoing his mockery. The thing that Rey cared about in that exchange was that they had sold her and abandoned her.

Rey herself never expresses any intrest in her parents being somebody, just in finding out who they are and gaining the family she seeks. She's not interested in fame or wealth, just belonging.

And yeah, Maz says it. So does Han, if I recall correctly, but neither of those convinced Rey becuse her self-deceit was so great. It took Kylo looking into her memories through their link and, like the callous dick he is, forcing her to confront the supressed memories that she had been doing her best to ingore for so long for her to finally acknowladge the truth.

I've never met my father, don't know a thing about him and have absolutly zero interest in finding out who he is*. Not everyone is going to be going on Unsolved Mysteries begging Robert Stack to help them find their long-lost parents/siblings/children/lovers.



*and I'd be even less likely to care if I suddenly did met him and found out he was an evil warlord who had killed my aunt, my uncle, my best friend and my favorite teacher and then tortured my other friends just to get my attention so he could trap me an mail me to his dictator boss.

I'm talking about fiction, lol - specifically the fictional movie The Last Jedi. Maybe you've heard of it?

Like what, was I imagining the belivable connection that I saw the narrative of the film present to me? Like there's reading to much between the lines to see things that are'nt present, I get that, but that Rey/Kylo was pretty present, just unsatasfactorly presented to some peaple.

 

All Kylo did was ask her a question in that scene in that situation.

By the nature of the nobody statement I'd think otherwise.

If she wasn't convnced before, why go forward and seek out the belonging she seeks there? But if that's the case, that sounds to me like not doing much different, and repeating similar parts of the character's arc from the previous movie. I think that adds not much to it.

You may not. But it doesn't mean it wouldn't happen to others.

I was talking about that.

No more than me when I shipped Piper from Charmed and Angel from Angel The Series, years ago. lol. I'm not going to say that they didn't link in the sense of being rivals, but that doesn't equal what shippers say there was and what TLJ does.

 

They had a mental link. He was'nt "just" asking her a question, he was looking into her past and glimpsing her memories and then forcing her to face up to reality of them (which she had been ingoring).

In order to take that statement and go "Rey wants her parents to be important" you'd have to ingore literally every other scene in the movies where she brings up her parents and clearly does'nt care about that - when she's in the cave she does'nt ask "who were my parents? Were they importent peaple?" she askes "show me my parents."

Go forward where? To Ach-To? She went there to get trained and learn how to deal with the new reality of her connection to the Force ("to find her place in all this" as she says to Luke) and becuse, she released upon getting there, it was the place in her dreams (or more likely, her visions)

And she's not repeating her character arc, she's completing it.

Well yeah, but it does'nt mean it would'nt happen to everyone.

Does it happen with Luke? Yeah. But is it realistic? Based on all the crap that Vader had done, either directly to him or just that he was aware of, I'd say no, and from were I'm sitting I'd be a hypocrite if i said "Luke caring about Anakin/Vader is belivable" but then turned around and said "Rey caring about Ben/Kylo makes no sense" - especially since, if it was'nt for the (IMO) superior writing of the PT relative to the ST I'd probobly find the Luke/Vader situation the less belivable of the two considering how much worse Vader is then Kylo.

Agian, I'm not shipping them, so the connection I saw was'nt romantic - in fact in the past I've found myself arguing quite strongly with some here agianst their being any legitimate romantic undertones in TLJ.

Again Rey is shown in both TLJ and TFA to be trusting, empathic and incrediably compassionate and understanding (also most naively so) - not to mention overconfident - and TLJ shows us they have a psychic link/Force bond and shows Rey learning about Kylo's past and the reason he falls to the Dark Side right after she herself has a brush with the Dark Side and wanting to bring him back for mainly strategic reasons. I bought that as being belivable, and others (such as you) did'nt, but it's all still there whether or not one buys it or not.

It's not a question of the reasons not existing, it's a question of whether individual peaple find the reasons belivable.

 

Rey and Kylo have no personal connection in that sense to build off of and drive that.

I think Rey is shown to be able to think rationally and have consistent emotions. I don't think the character does that in TLJ. Rey chooses to interact with him like they're college buddies, sitting across from eachother, not treat him as if he slashes her ally's back and killed her mentor. She does this without a personal connection to him. All of this before she sees that vision. The movie has her touch the hand of the man who killed Han, who cut her ally in the back, and threw her into a tree. I think the movie depends on her either being stupid or a fawning teen, in order to justify getting to that place. And then depends on Luke being either stupid or utterly forgetful or completely uncaring about her fate by having him not telling her that those visions aren't reliable. To me it's foundation of characters doing dumb things for the sake of plot that the movie's built on.

 

Well, from were I'm sitting they have somewhere between just slightly less and exactly the same of a belivable personal connection then Luke and Vader did in ROTJ

To each their own.

She's confiding him in that moment becuse she's shaken up, tramatized and essentially shell-shocked and he, a man who has experienced the Dark Side, is the only person "present."

This moment is also a matter of "whether or not it works is a matter of personal statisfication." Some peaple saw what was presented - a lonely, lost and confused long woman confinding in someone with vuaghly similier experiences who happened to show up - and bought it (or at least nodded along and went "sure, I guess that works. Whatever.). Others saw what you did - two "collage buddies" (though, no offense, but you must have had a weird collage experience if that's what comes to mind for you when you see the scene) - and yet others saw it has romantic.

None of those facts change the fact that it happened. It's fiction, and as if want to happen in fiction not everyone is going to find the events prevented to be believable. It's all a matter of taste and ability to suspend disbelief.

Oh, the vuanted hand touch.

I'll be honest, the hand touch means far, far less to me then it apparently does to others around here

 

Ok, but the point is there’s no reason she can’t just do that again. There’s no tension left in “who’s going to win this time?”. It’s not going to be Kylo that’s for sure. And what do you know the TIE fighter confrontation is such an embarrassing defeat that I have to assume it was actually part of his plan to justify it, and the duel on the Death Star wreckage ends with Rey mortally wounding him and then saving his life. Meanwhile, once again she’s never actually harmed either time.

The biological connection means something to Luke, “I can’t kill my own father”, but there’s more to it than that that causes it to affect him emotionally. Luke grew up believing that his father was a decent man who would have loved him if he had been given the chance but died tragically before that could happen, robbing Luke of that relationship. Then Obi-wan tells him he wasn’t just a regular guy, he was a Jedi and a galactic hero, and offers Luke the chance to follow in his father’s footsteps. Vader’s revelation turns all that upside down, because it turns out his father is still alive and even wants him to be a part of his life, but it comes at the cost that he is no longer that good man in Luke’s dreams, he’s actually the guy who’s been tormenting everybody for awhile. And so Luke rejects this twisted bargain for what he’s long wanted, but he still holds out hope that the good version of his father from the stories can be brought back, even though everyone else thinks he’s fooling himself. ROTJ plays the “following in his father’s footsteps” up pretty heavily. For most of the movie it’s portrayed ominously, culminating in Luke slicing off Vader’s hand in a rage before looking down at his own robot hand and realizing he’s on the same path. That’s when he realizes he’s on the wrong path and stops, instead declaring “I am a Jedi, like my father before me.” He makes the choice to be what Anakin once was before he messed up, and it helps Vader open his eyes to the fact that he too can still make his own choice to go back to the right path. And now, for a more lighthearted take on the matter:

 

I agree with this. It is often argued that Luke's motivations to try and turn Darth Vader back to the good side are more valid because the latter is his father. But for all his curiosity about his father, he never knew him. He doesn't even know what his father looks like from events in the movies. Nobody ever shows Luke a picture of him or anything. He knows absolutely nothing about him, apart from what Obi-Wan and Yoda tell him, and maybe Uncle Owen. Which is pretty much going to be Rey's experience, she will know about Ben Solo from what Han Solo and Leia tell her during their time together.

 

All that because Finn didn't deliver. I mean, I understand that if character/actor you were hoping to be the best/coolest/etc just wasn't, that could sour you to everything about the movies even objectively good parts. After all, audience is supposed to identify with characters and experience the movie through them.

That said, what's very specific for this site is that there was some very set in stone pre-conceived notion of what Finn should have been, or bust, that was strictly based on casting, not on what movie was or could be but casting alone. So when the movie came out and Finn was a "bust" (not a badass Jedi who gets the girl and fathers future Skywalkers to Rey Skywalker/Solo) some people never moved on from that, and since he never came anywhere close to fulfilling either expectation, the site became the center for handful of disgruntled people's rage. That is spilling over to anything they perceive as the direct reason for Finn failure.

Mind you, with fans like this who needs naysayers, for they don't like anything that this character really is. They like only what they thought he should have been but never was. All that because of casting. Replace Boyega with Plemmons (who was a runner-up for the role) and this site would look completely different. I guarantee you that incessant complaints about what a big failure Finn is would be replaced by Finn Skywalker debate (cause look at this dood! he looks like Luke cause blue eyes and blond hair = Luke's son) that would leave Rey parentage debate in the dust. In short, the topic would move from boo-Finn-the-bumbling-comic-relief-sanitation-boo-male character X-boo-ship X-boo director X-boo actor X-boo DLF-boo social-injustice-boo to the usual parentage crap because the site would attract posters with different interest than the one that dominates the tone and mood since TFA came out.

 

One could say the same thing about Luke, yet I don't think I've ever seen that complaint leveled at him - after all, they were both doing they same thing.

Rey nearly died during their fight in TROS, and only managed to wound him becuase Leia intervened right before he was about to kill her. If Leia had'nt stepped in Rey would have died, and that makes it even less her victory then the duel on in TFA.

All that happened with the TIE fighter is she chopped of the wing and it crashed, and only becuse he was purposely trying to provoke her, not to kill her. They did'nt fight in that scene.

The point I'm making is, to me personally, I find Luke sympathizing with Vader just becuse he happens to be the father he never met in spite of the fact that his only actual relationship with said father is Vader terrorizing him and killing/hurting his freinds/family just as belivable as Rey sympathizing with Kylo becuse she's an empathic and highly understanding person who, via their force-bond, saw a glipse of good in him and witnessed his past tragedy even though her only actual relationship is Kylo terrorizing her and killing/hurting her freinds.

It's not going to work for everyone, but it works for me (and plenty of others), and if I suspended my disbelief for Luke and not for Rey I'd be a hypocrite, becuse the difference between the two situations is so minor in my book its not even really worth noting.

You do know the way to my heart, I'll give you that...

Really as far as I'm concerned Owen was far more of a father to Luke then Vader/Anakin, and if I was Luke I would'nt have wasted a moment of my time on trying to save Vader (granted, that means I would have died and the Empire would have won, so...lol).

That is...a bit harsh, a probobly far more indelicate then I would have put it, but I do agree with the general sentiment (though I don't think that Finn's dipiction is the only reason peaple dislike TLJ and TROS - after all, I'd imagine their are peaple who hate both Finn and TLJ)

I'll be honest, while I would have picked Plemons over Boyaga pre-TFA, with the benafit of hindsight I'd rather Boyaga. At the same time though - and with no disrespect meant to Daisy Ridley - hindsight would also lead me to say I'd rather Jennifer Henwick have gotten the role of Rey.

 

I can, of course, only go off the films... and the films are what I'm discussing. Han was a smuggler in ANH. A reluctant rebel in TESB and a Rebel General in ROTJ. In TFA he's back to being a smuggler. That is quite regressive, you know, given he was a general and all... There's no mention (as far as I can remember) of what part he played in the New Republic. Going back to "what he was good at" is really just bad writing on Abrams part, as Han's character journey in the OT (granted he was neutered somewhat in ROTJ), is that of him (and others) realising he's much more than a smuggler. As per Luke, his new legacy is that of someone who made fundamental mistakes post ROTJ.

 

I mean aside from Last Shot I based my assumptions off the films - the OT and Solo. I don't consider Han to have made that much of a personal advancement in the OT as others apparently do - he's mostly the same in ESB as he was in ANH, having really only stuck around for Leia and maybe Luke in the intervening years, then gets frozen and un-frozen at the start of the next movie, is made a general off-screen and with no explanation (at least we see Finn's promotion and are given context for why it happens) and put in command of the Endor mission even though Leia, as a member of the Rebel leadership, outranks him.

Peaple say that TFA "reverts" Han to his ANH self, but to me in the context of just the films Han never really progressed that much beyond his ANH self to begin with, so it's a really a non-issue to me.

And I don't have an problem with the characters making mistakes post-ROTJ; to me its to be expected, becuse thirty years have passed and their all only Human. I don't see the OT main characters as being infaliable or incapable of having their legecies messed with just becuse they happen to be famous fictional characters.

 

Had she? As far as the previous movie had developed, the structured idea of the belonging you seek isn't behind you, it's ahead, the movie shows her going ahead. This is the movie that decides she has to go ahead and have her outright say it. I think for little reason and not in a way that benefits the overall story or characters.

I wouldn't put that past the movie.

If that's not the case for the character, then I think the movie has no reason to have the character use the words them being nobody. What purpose does that serve for the character, if not to showcase her wanting them to be important?

I wouldn't say that would equal proof of that concept. I think her asking for her parents in general isn't a decider if her wanting to know if they were somebody or not. Though even then I don't know why she thinks she'd get answers from going there. That sounds like another case of someone doing something stupid for the sake of plot.

Is she? What would stop the next movie from deciding, in a hypotetical scenario, that she hadn't? To me, this completion is no more a completion than the character had already come to by deciding to not go back to jakku to wait for her parents. I don't see why the movie needed to take another beat to explore I think a similar concept. Funny enough, thinking on it now, I think that by doing this, Rian is defining Rey by her parents in this movie, more than TFA did.

By the very nature of Luke having any kind of connection, whether through stories told to him by others, or his own feelings of being connected to him by the nature of him being his dad, Luke has more of a connection.

She has nothing to be traumatized or shell shocked about. I think even as shaken up as that would require. Even if that was supposed to be the case, those emotional feelings aren't developed in the movie and she's fine after that when coming at Luke. And none of the other things equal her deciding that this person is someone to talk to, present or not. I think the entire concept of that is essentially her devaluing his actions. I think by her doing this, what, a month or so ago, if not less, she shows no regard for what he did to Han and Finn and herself, by doing this. It takes away emotional consistency to me, and makes the character nothing but an idiot making stupid decisions for the sake of the plot.

When I see a display of 2 people sitting across from one another talking about things like one of them didnt slash the back of the other's ally, kill their mentor and throw them into a tree knocking them unconscious, I generally think buddies.

It happening doesn't mean it's not the character being stupid for the sake of the plot or that it makes sense for the character, as established to do it.

A hand touch, I think particularly in the context of the scene, is a showcase of intimacy. The movie itself highlights it. I don't see a strong reason why she would do that.

lol.

But there's a difference. These movies don't develop her knowing much of anything about him from others, or her having a personal connection to him he way Luke would Vader.

 

I had very little expectations for Finn, being someone who dislikes all the ST in one form or another, for some parts, and I don't think I really remember even knowing anything about the character before the first trailer came out. And I didn't particularly like Finn/Rey. I began to see as the more appealing option after seeing things about reylo. What I had is TFA and what the movie presents me with. And then TLJ and what I think the movie doesn't present and what I see a dismissal of the character potental. After hearing about that I realized what I wanted from the character, and what I now think is the stronger potential of the character and the story, and I think it's not what TLJ gave, to me.

In ANH? If so, I think that movie as a whole, to me, feels more straight forwrard and like a one story, to me.

 

Yeah - I can't agree. I know you don't particularly rate the previous films (not as highly as I do anyway), but Han is fundamentally different (relative to the genre/style of course) from what's presented in ANH and what's presented in TESB and ROTJ. If you don't think there's any semblance of development for that character in the OT, then yes, anything seen in TFA is absolutely academic. However, that it's a non-issue for you (and I'm happy for you that you don't see it as an issue) doesn't mean that his character isn't regressed.

 

Had she what? Been ingoring the reality? Well Rey knows her parents left, and we know from the revealation scene in TLJ that she's always known the truth of what happened, yet at the same time in both TFA and TLJ she stubborn clings to the hope of them coming back, even when peaple repeatedly point out that if their not coming back.

So I'd say yeah, she's ignoring the reality, since that's essentially what we're told.

It's a movie, not real life. The line existed mainly for meta purposes, and was justified (albiet filmisly) in the scene by Kylo more or less bullying Rey into repeating after him - hell that Rey only said that they were nobody becuse Kylo pushed her into saying it and was more upset having to be forced to admit that they abandoned her should show you how much she "cared" about her parents importence.

Let me ask you a question. You think Rey wants importent parents, right? Based on her characterization in all three of the movies, why do you think this is a thing that she would care about? And furthermore if it is why is it only brought up once in all the times she talks about her parents?

The Dark Side was calling her in.

TFA asked the question "who are Rey's parents?" and made her desire to be re-united with a major part of her character, and TLJ contiued that characterization (would have been weird if they dropped it) and answered the question the first movie asked, so yeah, it was completing that storyline (until TROS decided it did'nt think that answer was good enough and dug up the corpse of the plotline to frankenstien it)

Luke heard stories about Anakin and Rey heard stories about Ben (as well as saw one of them personally via their link) - seems more or less equivliant to me.

Rey gave in to the allure of the Dark Side and entered a powerful DS nexus, and all she got out for her self-compramising was a trippy vision that told her nothing and left her confused. The Dark Side has an effect on peaple on peaple who open themselves - especially those who are not fully consumed by it - and when you touch it you loose a part of yourself. And to boot this was her "first time," so to speak.

She's "fine" afterwards becuse she's recovered from the shock - or rather it's been replaced by (misplaced) anger at Luke.

She did'nt "decide" to talk to Kylo. He showed up and, becuse he was present, she offloaded onto him. She did'nt go looking for him, and she was'nt really in the correct headspace to stop and go "oh wait, this is Kylo Ren. He's bad. I should'nt talk to him" - to say nothing of being to drained to waste the effort nessesery to argue with him like she had before.

To me it made perfect sense for the character, as established, to do what she did, and seemed pefectly in character based on both what I had seen of her in TFA and how she had been presented in TLJ up to that point.

Luke does'nt have a personal connection to Vader. He has a blood connection to Vader. That's not personal, it's just genetics.

Yes, in ANH; at the end of ANH specifically, when Luke opens up to the Force, trusts in it and lets it take control of his actions, it's the same thing Rey does at the end of TFA during her fight with Kylo.

I actually rate the OT higher then the ST, it's just that to me it's a hybrid of a campy Flash Gordon-style sci-fi movie, a samurai movie and a spaghetti western, which to me makes it unique but not really a masterpiece, and while I reconize that it had a major effect on filmaking technique, pioneered special effects and a led to a semi-reinvention of the genre, I don't think the movies in and of themselves are that great - really good, but not masterpieces. So yeah, I rank them less then you do, but probobly not as low as you might think

For the record - ESB > ANH > ROTJ > R1 > TLJ > ROTS > Solo > TFA > TMP > TROS > ATOC

As for the bolded regarded Han. I don't see it. Maybe its there, but not as far as I can tell - he's made progress from where he was in ANH by the end of ROTJ, but not really that much progress, and most of what is made is regarding relationships and rank, not characterization.

 

I think that TFA's greatest achievement is pulling the wool over people's eyes about the potential for the future. TFA had no potential for anyone and anything. It was a rehash whose sole existence was to speedily woo back fans that were left divided in the wake of PT (which I adore, BTW). So they decided that OT nostalgia pandering was the way to go (return of OT cast is single-handedly responsible for 2 billion boxoffice) and that worked and that's all the movie was. Nothing more but it was done in such deliberately vague anyone-can-read-anything-they-want way that fans were free to tailor it to their liking and headcanons started to run rampant. In short, everyone had their own version of what they thought the movie was about (eg, Rey finding her father Luke, Rey and Kylo future romance, etc) and where the trilogy was going. So the movie seemed better than it really was because it fed various personal narratives. Check out old parentage thread if you can still find it somewhere in cyberspace, and you'll see how many different reads on the same thing fans got based on their preferences. Rey was Solo cause she spoke Wookie and Kenobi cause she spoke Wookie. Rey was Skywalker cause she lived on a desert planet and Kenobi cause she lived on a desert planet. Did Maz emphasize legacy of the saber cause Rey is Skywalker or did she emphasize that parents weren't coming back cause she was a nobody? Yes, the movie was that vague, throwing anything on the wall but committing to nothing. So next movie had to commit to something and it did it in such a way that it broke fandom. Now I don't think that all naysayers didn't like TLJ because their headcanons got shut down (I myself have tons of criticism that has nothing to do with what I wanted the movie to be as opposed to what it was) but a particularly virulent brand of naysayers was driven strictly by failed expectations as in "not my scenario". This category is easy to spot because their criticism is always "They should have done this because I wanted it, they shouldn't have done that because I didn't" and "If I don't like it than it's an objective failure". as opposed to "the movie has done this but the execution left to be desired because ___________[reasons in the movie and not a personal scenario]."

But anyway, back to character potential or lack therefore. I'd say that characters had no potential whatsoever by default of being assigned OT roles:

Rey - new Luke
Kylo - new Vader (by the way of Anakin)
Finn and Poe - heh, here they couldn't even decide which one was their new Han
Snoke - new Sheev

That's death of potential right there because it automatically meant following all the known beats. A character who leaves comes back to help. A character who is bad gets redeemed. A character who is desert rat with a Force becomes the last Jedi (while discovering dark heritage in the process). Etc. They never had a chance to be something different and unique because the whole point of their existence was to support nostalgia. The real star of ST is nostalgia. Everyone else - characters, sets, etc - just worked for nostalgia.

 

I said that it wasn't until TLJ that I realized what I wanted from the character, what I think the potential of the character was. I think I didn't really have much expectations storywise as a whole after TFA. After hearing about TLJ I had a perception on what I'd prefer.

For instance, I think-Finn helping the rebellion and sneaking into a stormtrooper training facility and trying to get some kids out of there after seeing them being taken to be trained, only to fail, when Phasma has a lot of them killed rather than let them escape, Finn driving into a rage and him killing Phasma, leaving him in a place of wanting the FO dead.- is more interesting to me than what I think TLJ does, which I think is more extend his TFA arc.

Similar for Rey being someone who has sought a family, to discover that she's Luke's daughter, only to deal with the idea that having a family, having this, even having a heroic family, doesn't fix her problems, her becoming angry and feeling betrayed at the idea of feeling abandoned by Luke and lashing out at him, and maybe even feeling the legacy of the family is pain and loss and suffering and death, deciding she doesn't want to be a Skywalker, and in a rejection of that, from behind the shields of a starship, throwing Anakin's lightsaber into space.

I think none of the ST really does much new.

 

Finn is the new Han. Poe gives the droid the secret information at the start and then gets captured, so he's clearly the new Leia

 

Oh I agree that none of SW does anything new. For all the praise that TLJ gets for "originality", it really mostly follows the beats of ESB and some ROTJ and PT thrown into the mix, but with a twist on those movies. Short version: subverted movie X and Y is still movie X and Y and not a movie Z aka new original entity. I do think that the ending cleaned the slate for continuation that wouldn't have to be ROTJ 2.0 but it also left the story with no hook for the future.

 

Leia says to Rey before she leaves the rebel base: 'Rey, never be afraid of who you are'. Then they hug.
We don't see Leia's face. Did Leia said that in TFA originally before sending Rey to Luke?
https://the-swsc.com/2019/09/11/exc...s-to-leias-ep-9-role-reys-parentage-and-more/

Brandon doesn't mention the line. The idea is in the novel, but not the line:

'Never be afraid of who you are'. But is Leia who's afraid, and she thinks about Ben: 'you wont share the fate of our son'
If it was not a part of that scene, where did that line come from? I guess thare's another possibility:

'You can't go back'. He's talking about her force lightning in Pasaana. Too much Palpatine in her. Too much Vader in Ben. 'That's why I wanted him to train with Luke'. What did Ben do?

 

Does the novel really fail to capitalize the Force? Dear god.

 

@K2771991

I've seen Rey multiple times put Kylo's health and freedom over the innocent citizens of the Galaxy, so that trumps to me whatever else you might consider canon proof of narcissism. Whatever values she's weighing to make that decision twice are self absorbed values that aren't considering the innocent victims of Kylo and the FO across the Galaxy. She's thinking about her soul and Kylo's soul and the force's will and a bunch of theoretical stuff that is not mass abducted children and mass murdered defenseless peoples. That is narcissistic automatically to me. What a position of privelege to weigh these intellectual exercises as more important than protecting the children he's running around the galaxy stealing.

 

I mean I'm pretty sure I've done that more then a few times around here, so I'm not going to start throwing stones from inside my glass house...

What's multipule? Two times? Once when she had her own safety to look out for and anouther time where she was depressed and had resigned herself to running away and hiding becuse she was afraid of her own power. Compared to those two times there are plenty of other examples of her fighting for the innocents of the galaxy, including at least two instances of her fighting Kylo himself in defense of those innocents.

Narcassim is self-gratification/self-flattery/self-idealization. At the most you could say that Rey is being selfish or foolish, but not narcassitic, becuse a narcassist would'nt give a crap about saving Kylo's soul. If Rey were a narcassist she would'nt heal him, she would just stand there lording her victory over him.

I mean, Luke was thinking about Vader's soul in ROTJ and Obi-Wan was thinking about the will of the Force in ROTS per the novel, were they being narcissists? To me they were being Jedi who praticed mercy and compassion and showed a devotion the their Order's idealogy/the Light Side of the Force.

Like yeah, Rey's thinking about Kylo/Ben's soul and the will of the Force and so on, but of course she is becuse she's a Jedi. Star Wars has been around long enough that it really should'nt be suprising when a Jedi acts the way she's shown to act.

There is no emotion, there is peace.
There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.
There is no passion, there is serenity.
There is no chaos, there is harmony.
There is no death, there is the Force

 

Yes.

Any justification you give is weighed by me against protecting children from mass abduction and defenseless citizens from mass murder. I think we both know which side I find more compelling.

Rey was not weighing her safety when she shipped her body in a coffin for Kylo's soul, so no I don't credit her weighing that above the innocent citizens of the galaxy when she was already there and could have taken him. As far as the second one, she healed him before running away, which was itself a giant demonstration of force power. So that was super important to her to do before running away - saving Kylo. Not saving everyone or anyone else from Kylo.

Weighing theoretical self absorbed stuff that affects her or Kylo is that to me of course. Caring about Kylo's soul at all is absolutely narcissistic to me. She personally cares about Kylo for whatever reason, because she's attracted to him or he's her soulmate or dyad or whatever. That's selfish. Her personal feelings for Kylo are crazy less important that mass abducted children and mass murdered citizens across the Galaxy.

Luke never put Vader's soul above freeing the Galaxy, and neither did Obi put Anakin above the Galaxy. That's why Luke almost killed Vader and Obi sliced off Vader's limbs and left him burning in lava. They did not prioritize their personal affection above anyone else.

 

Okay, so what about all the times were she fights to defend against evil/to defend innocents, inculding the times she fought/attacked Kylo for that purpose?

You want to provide evidence that Rey does'nt care about protecting children from Kylo?

I mean, she attacked him to protect him from killing the Resistence members in TLJ and attacked him to defend a wounded Finn in TFA, so even if she cares about saving his soul she does'nt care about it so much that she's not willing to attack him when he's victimizing peaple.

Rey did'nt consider herself to be in danger when she went to the Supremacy. By the time she left things had changed and she was in immedate danger of being captured by the guards.

But then, we've had this conversation before and we know how it ends...

Based on what information? From what we see in the movie Force healing is super easy and the only limitation is the healer having enough vitality to spare. Kylo's wound was a non-vital area and did'nt even look that bad, so it should'nt have taken much of Rey's life force to patch him up.

Have you considered she did it becuse she's a better person then he is, and is empathic and compassionate that she would show mercy and charity even to her worst enemy? Have you also considered the very strong possibility that she did'nt want to dishoner Leia's sacrafice by leaving her only child - who Leia had never given up on or stopped loving - to die?

Really Rey's worst crime here seems to be "being kinder then she probobly should have been."

"She cares about someone elses soul becuse she's a narcassist." is like saying "I gave all my money to charity becuse I'm greedy." or "I stayed up all night becuse I was tired."

Rey's not a narcassist. In fact, based on all avaliable evidence we have on her character and personality, she's an empath, which is so far from being a narcassist that its actually the the literal opposite of one.

Yeah, that's the only reason

Though one has to wonder if it's part of the reason at all then why it's never brought up in the films...

Well, no offense but considering you have'nt provided any evidence of that being that case I'm just going to go an assume that it's just your opinion...

Luke almost killed Vader becuse Vader set him off and had spent the entire fight before that evading him and going "I won't kill you father!" when by your logic he should have been taking the fight to him from the get-go. And Obi-Wan tried to reason with Anakin multipule times during their fight, all the way up to the moment before he cut his legs off, and after that used the same "I'll leave it up to the will of the Force" reasoning that you condem Rey for using.