ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

I know she isn't, but the post referred to "Hollywood contracts". I suspect that her contract does mean something, and will have enforceable clauses in it. All contracts do.

 

@K2771991

DOTF script is completely irrelevant because CT was fired and script scrapped before TLJ came out. CT was officially let go in Sep 2017. TLJ was released 3 months later. So that was not a reaction to TLJ reception but they simply didn't like his script. at that point, they had no reason to be apprehensive of TLJ so they didn't think DOTF was a good follow-up. I just think it's important to take chronology of events into consideration.

 

I can use the same logic to say that no film ever set up anything. Any sequel writer can undo anything because any "set up" is just interpreted that way according to some fan's expectations. I don't consider that a good argument at all. You might as well be saying, "TLJ didn't HAVE to have Rey in it. Fans just assumed she would be!"

A mystery box is automatically "empty" if the answer isn't in the film. However, clues and plotpoints about it in the film are of course set up that shouldn't be ignored or rewritten.

No no, back stories and setups for characters and relationships were ignored entirely in some cases and rewritten in others.

No they weren't. TFA is very much Rey and Finn's story. It's about their respective hero's journeys individually and together. In TLJ, they're along for the ride, and the central story and conflict is about Luke and Kylo. While Rey and Finn are along for the ride of Luke and Kylo's melodrama, their bond was dropped as a story element that matters in the narrative at all.

 

I wanted to start an “Endgame comparisons to TROS” thread, so it wouldn’t take up conversations from other threads, but the Mods never got back to me.

 

I hope they approve that thread cause I'd be interested to participate in the discussion. @cerealbox

 

It’s been 2 or 3 months since I requested it.

I’lll probably just start it and if the Mods don’t want it, then they’ll lock the thread anyway.

 

Finn wasn’t along for the ride in Luke/Kylo’s melodrama.

He was far from it.

And when he was near the Rey/Kylo drama in TROS he still couldn’t do anything.

The thing is though, in order for a story or plot to work with Finn and Rey together and each have their own journey, they’d have to help each other in some way in the following movies pass TFA.

In TLJ, Rey would overshadow Finn if she went with him instead of Rose. And Finn wouldn’t be able to do anything to help Rey if he went to Ahch-To (despite the late reveal he had the force).

In TROS, Finn only shined when Rey wasn’t near him. And every time Finn tried to assist Rey in her journey, she would figuratively and literally push him away.


Take the Captain America Trilogy. You could look at them as the story of Steve and Bucky’s friendship over the films. But come Infinity War and Endgame there really isn’t more for the story about their friendship since Steve got Bucky to Wakanda for rehab. That’s why there’s no focus on their relationship in Infinity War and Endgame (besides getting Bucky and everyone else snapped back)

Same with Rey and Finn after TFA.

 

The scrapped the DTOF script becuse Fisher died and Leia's central role in the movie nessesitated a re-write. If they had disliked the script they would'nt have A; waited till what amounted to the last second to get rid of it, forcing themselves to have to rush to find a new director, writer and script and B; not waited until an unforseen tragedy forced them to do so. Not to mention they could have easily had him change his script as he was writing it to fix their alleged desires if it was that big a deal.

And DTOF is very relevent if the discussion is regarding whether or not TROS ably followed up on TLJ, since DTOF actually did follow up on the latter movie and thus provides an example of what a followup would look like.

Not if that sequal was the sequal to a movie that did'nt have any setup.

Your trying to substitute peaples personal desires for what they wanted to happen for what was supposed to happen. If peaple's expectations did'nt get met that's on them - especially in this case becuse, as I said, the film was written before their expectations existed; what, was Johnson supposed to stop production every five minates to change the film was it was being made to suit the ever-shifting tied of fan theories and assumptions?

The mystery boxes were empty so Johnson could come up with whatever answer he wanted - he did'nt ingore or rewrite anything, but if you have evidence he did, hey, by all means...

Whose?

Yeah, but TLJ is'nt TFA.

This is all 100 percent just your opinion though.

Don't be ridiculous, of course he could do something...

...he could play chess with Chewbacca

Would that be considered the threads...Endgame?


Yeaaaaaaaahhh!!!!

Just gonna ask a favor, but when the first person reaches China can they sent a postcard to the rest of us so we know we've finally dug so deep we've reached the bottom?

Becuse honestly I think we must almost be there at this point...

 

One of the things I would talk about is how I would compare TFA to the first Avengers, TLJ to Age of Ultron, but how TROS tried to be both Infinity War and Endgame at once.

 

@K2771991 It wasn't the last moment. They made CT exit official in September but those things happen earlier behind the screen. They only make annoucnements when they think the timing is right for everyone such as that CT locked in Jurassic World 3 and thus didn't look like a complete loser. Lord and Miller announced Into the Spiderverse gig shortly before or after parting ways with Solo.

@cerealbox Good Cap and Bucky analogy.Also, if they won't have a thread, write a post about ST and Avengers movies. That's on topic here.

 

The whole point of the story of TLJ is that the Resistance is doomed unless Luke, Kylo, or ultimately Rey saves them. Everything Finn and Poe and everyone else does is treading water on the way to massacre until a force user rescues them. The reason it takes so long to be rescued by a force user is Luke versus Kylo melodrama.

Okay, and you just did it again. Obviously TFA did have some setup, otherwise, once again, you could literally be saying that TLJ didn't have to have Rey in it.

I'm not substituting expectations for what is supposed to happen. You are characterizing people's substantive opinions on TFA in that way as, I think, a means of dismissing opinion you disagree with.

Sure of course. TFA set up Rey finding some personal belonging with Luke specifically. This is why when Maz said Rey's belonging is ahead, Rey clarified with Luke, and Luke's saber called to her, and she dreamed of Luke's island during her lonely nights. The element of Rey finding personal belonging with Luke in some fashion was completely dropped. They had a shallow contentious relationship and then Rey left and Luke died. Meeting Luke was just a stop on Rey's path to deciding she can be the force user to rescue the damsel in distress, which in this case is the Resistance.

The only set up we have for Poe in TFA is that he is currently following Leia with his life and he has demonstrable on screen admiration and respect for her. TLJ flushes this to lecture us about toxic males, and Leia slaps him too, like she's a soap opera vixen, not a respected General dealing with her top pilot that she singularly trusts with the most important and personal mission.

Finn's backstory of being an escaped ST slave in the last two days is entirely ignored. Instead, he's tased as a deserter from the army he just rescued two days after being an escaped slave and then later he is subjected to listening to a lecture on the evils of slavery and war, like he needs this. Finn gets zero development on specifically his new life and freedom while adjusting to being an ex-ST specifically. He just gets lectured until he joins the Resistance.

There are of course more, but I'll leave it at two for now.

Wow that's quite a strawman. Since the discussion isn't about whether TLJ is TFA, I'll just move along.

As is everything I'm saying, and everything you're saying is all 100% just your opinion.

 

Ah, I created it right before I saw this.

But I made it more about modern day blockbusters comparison to the Sequel trilogy, rather than a pure ST vs MCU thread.

 

She has one year left. They just have to pony up for that final year. Happens all the time in football. Coaches get fired with buyouts.

 

Who would replace her though

 

Anyone. They could bring in someone from another deprtment, like how Bob Thanos (theme parks) is now CEO in Iger's place. Or they could promote someone we know like Favereau/Filoni that fans like. or they could promote someone that we know like Michelle Rejwan that fans don't like. I've seen speculation that Rejwan is groomed to take KK's place while KK would go to some higher position. Or they could bring in someone from another studio. So we'll see.

 

I think we'd of seen the traditional third movie bounce if the ST was released in three successive years. The bounce came with The Last Jedi over Rogue One.

 

I hope you manage to protect your farmland with that strawman, becuse it's so flimsy I think it might just blow apart.

I'm not dimissing anyone's opinion, I just don't see any reason why peaple should get upset becuse their opinions and theories were wrong; that seems enomormously petty and, IMO, a huge example of fan entitlement (which I think is a major problem with the response to the ST and a great many other modern day adaptions/works).

Maz did'nt say Rey's belonging was with Luke - Rey did - and Maz did'nt say that belonging was with a person/persons; when she went to Luke in TLJ she did ultimatly find belonging, as it led her further along the path to the Jedi and, through the incidents it instigated, led to her relizing that the family she was looking for had been in front of her the entire time (the Resistence) at the end of the film, not behind her with her long-gone parents.

No, becuse see above - TFA was'nt setting up personal belonging, some peaple just assumed it was.

Nothing in TLJ conflicts with Poe's characterization in TFA becuse Poe is barely in that film, and nothing on screen in the first movie indicates he admires Leia extra ordinarly (he does, but that's from non-film stuff Johnson has no reason to be aware of, and even then does'nt conflict with the idea of her disobaying her becuse he though he knew better at the time).

Good greif, this is an old one that I have'nt seen in a while.

No it did'nt - a man and woman having a disagreement in a movie does not equal "toxic masculinity." Stop reading to much into crap. Holdo and Poe were both dipicted as having made mistakes in their little back-and-forth.

That was never a big deal for his character to begin with - he brings it up like once in TFA - this is something that was made into more then it was going to be by some fans.

He was'nt a deserter, Rose just thought he was becuse she did'nt know any better, and she did'nt lecture him, she answered a question that he asked her. On top of that that whole spial was an infodump for her backstory, and her anger was'nt amid at Finn - I know to some peaple the world and the narrative revovles around Finn and everything effects him in some way, but it does'nt.

Finn gets plenty of devolopment in TLJ, he just did'nt get devolopment according to a specific reading of his character that fans invented and the movies decided not to go with.

So it's just your opinion that TLJ does'nt follow up on TFA?

So everything your saying above is opinion, not examples of setup that TLJ factually and objectivly ingored?

If she has one year left and is going to stay until then have you considered this has nothing to do with her being fired and is simply just that she is going to step down of her own accord in 2021?

Mr. The Honorable The Fandom's Next Punching Bag, esquire

I'd find it amusing if it was Lucas (impossible though that may be) just so that we can go full circle from "Lucas killed SW" to "KK killed SW, bring back Lucas!" only to end up back at "Lucas killed SW!"

Also the job KK holds is that of a top corporate administrator for a large, major production study, that's well outside Filoni's wheelhouse and I don't think he would take the job irregardless (nor do I think Favereau would either, since it would derail his career as a director/writer/actor)

Of the existing peaple we know of I would saw Rejwan is the most likely choice, but as you point out they can always bring in an outsider.

 

It's not a strawman. You literally said TFA set nothing up.

That's not what a strawman is. In fact, you keep saying that it would be impossible for RJ to drop any set up from TFA because TFA set up nothing. That I have to make such an obvious point speaks to how irrationally broad your point has been.

This isn't a discussion of a theory being wrong. Once again, you are characterizing other people's points how you want, not how they are phrasing them.

I could say the exact same thing to you being upset about RoS supposedly ignoring TLJ and I could call you enormously petty for the same exact reasons. I wouldn't do that though. It's not personal and obviously you are free to think that, just as I am free to think TLJ treated TFA like garbage and frankly RoS was more respectful to TLJ than TLJ was to TFA.

I literally said Rey said that. It changes nothing. It's set up.

Rey didn't find any belonging with Luke in TLJ. That's not in the movie. What was in the movie was Rey and Luke did't get along, they lied to each other the two days they were around each other, they had a physical altercation, Rey bounced, and then Luke died. None of that was Rey finding personal belong specifically with Luke, which is what TFA specifically set up.

No the film pointed directly at personal belonging with Luke in three separate ways. That's literally exactly what set up is. Things in the film point toward a certain outcome. Then when the sequel ignores those plot points pointing toward that certain outcome even existing in the first place, you get some people pointing out that set up was ignored directly from the film. That has nothing to do with assumptions. By the same logic, I could say it was only your assumption that Luke wouldn't have learned his lesson that treating the lightsaber like trash and a joke was wrong and crappy.

Wow okay, here we go then. Yes Poe does discuss Leia directly, yes he is devoting his life to her cause, and yes she did trust him alone with the most important and personal mission that there is. That is all from the film. It's not me, it's you, that relies on extra canon sources. I speak very specifically about film content.

Agree to disagree that TLJ didn't blatantly turn Poe into the stereotype of a toxic male. I didn't say Holdo didn't make mistakes. That's just irrelevant to the point. RJ has discussed that he saw her flirting with Poe and that's why she was in a ball gown. That's gross... But irrelevant to ignoring set up.

This is flat out wrong. Finn's defection is the most important moment in TFA imo and definitely portrayed as important, regardless of whether you think it was not important. This is you substituting your assumptions for what is actually in the film.

Yeah I know he wasn't a deserter. That's irrelevant. All of this is in fact. None of it addresses my point of Finn's backstory being ignored.

 

Finn’s “backstory” as a Stormtrooper isn’t a setup. It’s backstory and it’s ignored in the very movie that introduced him. There’s no exploration of his life prior to defecting, there’s no lasting scars, PTSD etc. It doesn’t
even show him caring about his former troopers since it shows him blasting them away with glee. He’s very well-adjusted for someone whose lived under a military dictatorship from birth. The “set up” from TFA is that Finn went to SK Base to rescue Rey, ended up in a coma and Rey said goodbye not knowing if he’d wake up or ever see him again. TLJ picks up there by showing him in the same mindset, still thinking he’s in that forest fighting for her and wanting to get as far from the conflict as possible. Finn didn’t join the Resistance, he lied his way onto the base to save her (he lied about being Resistance before that). Finn wasn’t always on the level and main concern was numero uno and Rey. He wasn’t committed to a greater cause, he just wanted out. And that’s where TLJ picks up


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Collider owner says she’s out already.

 

Dude, it’s Collider.


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My god, it should be obvious that "TFA did'nt set anything up" does'nt included the existence of characters and the general plot of the trilogy - it means TFA did not set up anything specific regarding thos characters and plot that TLJ had to adhere to in crafting the sequal. This is not just my opinion either, this is a fact that comes from interviews with the peaple in charge.

I'm not the one being "irrationally broad" here, that's just you streching what I said out to an fairly absurd extreme.

You mean the thing we know it factually did becuse we know TLJ, unlike TFA, was a movie that left specific setup and we have the script for the movie that was originally supposed to be made?

The phrase "personal belonging" (to say nothing of personal belonging with Luke or even belonging with Luke) is never once uttered in TFA. Your just attaching your own expectations onto it - Rey did find belonging in TLJ, and that finding was brought about by going to Luke, so it fits with what Maz said; Abrams wrote what he wrote, and then left it for Johnson to decide what kind of belonging she found their and what the nature of it was.

And of course you and a specific segment of the fandom are the arbiters of that outcome? Why is your belief in what you think was setup more valid then what TLJ gave us?

I never said Luke had'nt learned his lesson regarding the saber - I actually thing in-universe that moment makes a lot of sense. I just thought the joke was an unessesery insult and, yeah, that is my opinion.

Poe has a high opinion of Leia, yes, that's in the film, but their mother/son stuff is from elsewhere and neither of those things precludes him disobaying her orders becuse he thought he knew better - TFA did'nt set Poe up as a mindless drone with no autonomy or self-deterimation, and never told us he would always do what Leia said 100 percent of the time.

"Toxic male" is a junk buzzword at this point, much like "SJW," "Feminazi" and "Socialist Agenda," It's hollow, so overused as to be devoid of actual meaning at this point and exist mainly to be thrown around by peaple engaged in the kind of bitter debates that simple circle the wagons.

Beacuse god forbid a woman flirt with a man, am I right?

Jesus almighty, what, did I just step through a time portal to the Victorian Era or something?

Nothing was set up regarding Poe in TFA.

You seem to be confusing "ingoring setup" with "character was dipicted in a way that I did'nt personally like or envision them being presented."

How can it be wrong if it's just your opinion that it is?

Finn helps Poe escape (mainly becuse he was forced to since they were coming for him anyway), and then they trade banter like old bodies and then the why is brought up later (note; "escaping from slavery" is not mentioned), breifly, and then never agian.

JohnWilliamsSonoma addressed this pretty well above, so I'm not going to retread

Don't belive everything you read

Kennedy's been "reported" as having been "fired," "let go," "embattled" and all other manner of things multiple times now - I'm not saying your wrong, but as far as I'm concerned, well...fool me once and all that.