ST The Development Of The Sequel Trilogy

Neither of them know if it was stolen, only that it belonged to someone else.


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REY: What's your hurry, thief?

FINN: What--?! Thief?

FINN: OW! HEY! What?!

REY: The jacket! This droid says you
stole it!

BB-8 believes that Finn stole Poe's jacket and that's what he told Rey. You are right that neither Rey nor BB-8 knows it; BB-8 assumes it, likely because of the last time he saw Poe, and Rey thinks it because she's going by what BB-8 says.

 

Just like Rose assumed Finn had some loyalty to the Resistance then.....


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The more times I watch The Rise of Skywalker, the more it make sense. Not just the plot and character motivations, but the structure of the movie. I've never watched a movie where my appreciation of the movie's structure and plotting changed so much over multiple viewings.

Basically we have Kylo Ren who is the big bad guy until Palpatine shows up. Now Kylo Ren is going to secretly work against Palpatine to enlist Rey to his side so they can destroy the Emperor. Kylo Ren is chasing Rey the entire movie trying to push her towards the Dark Side. Trying to get her to hate the man who killed her family.

And we have the climactic battle on the Death Star which ends with Rey turning to the Dark Side but being brought back instantly by the shock of Leia dying. Then Rey heals Ben Solo, effectively undoing her mistake from moments earlier.

Ben is redeemed and the story of the Sequel Trilogy is effectively wrapped up. Now the story switches to more of a wrap up for the entire saga. Our heroes from the Original Trilogy all return to send the new heroes off on the final battle with Palpatine. Han talks to Ben. Lando talks to Poe. Luke talks to Rey.

It's sort of amazing Rey goes directly from Luke to confront the Emperor. It's like Luke going directly from Daghobah to the Emperor's thrown room on the Death Star.

It's very much a total Saga ending confrontation - it's all or nothing. The events of the Prequels and Original Trilogy and Sequel Trilogy all come to head in the last act of The Rise of Skywalker.

 

#whereisfinn

This is an excellent observation that shows the character who took Finn's place/pushed Finn out/is the reason for Finn's reduced importance/screen time is not Ben or Rey. Those 2 characters never cut into Finn's place in the story which is with the Rebellion.

 

I agree totally with this. ROS is not a perfect movie, but damn, JJ really did his best to make this thing come together, considering what an absolute trainwreck TLJ. Going into ROS, it was hard to imagine how anyone could wrap it all up, but IMO JJ gets a 9 out of 10. Now did it require some bad storytelling in terms of the trilogy as a whole? Yes, bringing in Palpatine is awkward, and the Palpatine grandfather reveal feels forced, but IMO, there was no better way to go. Perfect? No. But JJ did a good job.

 

Good point. He got overridden by the guy who was supposed to die in the first movie...


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It would be obvious, except you keep saying RJ couldn't possibly have ignored set up because TFA didn't have any. If TFA had any set up at all, which of course it did, yes, RJ could have ignored set up.

We don't factually know that. This statement is still based on your admittedly absurd and extreme premise that TFA had no set up at all.

I could say something along this line to literally everything you think TLJ set up. You attached your expectations to things RJ wrote. RJ didn't set up Rey Random, for example, based on your logic. He stated openly that he had no idea if she'd still be Rey Random in JJ's movie. Meanwhile, Kylo is evil and has an agenda. There was no reason to presume he wasn't lying or manipulating Rey or just wrong. If you presumed he was correct, that was you attaching your expectations onto it. We're doing exactly the same thing, except you seem to think only your opinion is "factual" or valid.

Me and any other viewer are the arbiters of our opinions and literally that is all I'm expressing, which for some reason, I get the distinct impression you have a problem with. Probably the accusation of being petty might lead to that conclusion lol.

I didn't say anything about mother/son stuff so that's irrelevant to my point.

This discussion isn't about whether TFA said anything had to occur 100% of the time. That's not what set up is. No movie ever does that and once again you are characterizing set up in such a ridiculously broad way that no film could ever be said to have set up, and that would include TLJ. I brought up Poe because you asked for specifics about relationships/characterizations from TFA being ignored or rewritten. The Poe/Leia one? That's rewritten, not meaning it's impossible for human beings to have this kind of disagreement. It just means that TFA presented their relationship one way, and TLJ did a 180 out of nowhere just because. It didn't build on the foundation that started in TFA. Developing stuff =/= changing it. You could develop a mutually respectful relationship by challenging it for a good reason that literally plays on the mutual respect. That would be interesting. But flushing it for very fast open disobedience in a military context and then a soap opera slap isn't that because both of those actions totally disregard the foundation of respect between them previously established.

I agree, which is why I think writing a character to fit that stereotype is awful, shallow writing.

What???? No a military leader flirting with a subordinate is gross, especially in that context of massacre both immediately before and during. This has nothing to do with the Victorian Era. And then RJ feeling like she should therefore wear a ball gown to make her more feminine than a military uniform allows just because she's flirting is also gross.

https://redrikki.livejournal.com/95584.html

Once again, if "nothing" was set up regarding Poe, he could have murdered Holdo in TLJ to get his way and it wouldn't have ignored set up.

It's wrong because Finn being an ex-ST is emphasized all over TFA factually. He literally lies to Rey to pretend he isn't. This is a big moment for them because he's ashamed of his past. The fact that he's a slave is made explicitly clear regardless of the word. Like all STs, he was stolen from his family and forced to be a ST. He risked his life to escape. You are definitely replacing the film's narrative for Finn with your opinion that Finn being a ST didn't matter. I suspect that's what RJ did as well. He was bored by Finn or something and just didn't notice or care about his on screen story. As I said before, a film putting that kind of backstory on its co-protagonist is absolutely set up for the sequel to develop that character with respect to that backstory. RJ chose not do that.

 

Finn and Poe sort of piggy back off one another when it comes to focus in TROS. And yes - Finn does not get a sit down talk with an OT hero. But what Finn does get is a sit down talk with Jannah. And we see that Finn is the hero to Jannah and the other defecting Stormtroopers the same way Finn was a hero to Rose. Only now Finn really is that hero they think he is. And we also learn that "The Force Awakens" probably is refering to Finn to Rey. Rey most likely always had the Force. But the Force popped on in Finn during the massacre in the village. The Force snapped Finn out of brain washing. And we see Finn's first steps as a Jedi.

So in a way Finn is the character who changes the most and goes off on his own path the most in the ST. To the point that there really ins't an OT hero that parallels with Finn.

I think we're to understand that Palpatine is there the entire time in the ST. He is Snoke. He brought about Starkiller Base. Palpatine in a very petty way was out to personally take revenge on Luke, Han, Leia and everyone else that defeated him in the OT. I just wish we learned Palpatine had directly created Rey as part of this revenge scheme. She's still his grand daughter, but we'd know for sure Rey was a designed part of his plan.

So that's my other big revelation the more I've seen TROS. It's not that Palaptine comes out of know where. It that we the audience don't see him pulling the strings. The audiences POV is like that of the Jedi in the PT when it comes to Palpatine. The audience sees what is going on in the Prequels where the Jedi don't. In the sequel trilogy we don't find out the truth until the third movie.

 

Exactly. I just don't understand why it is such a taboo to admit it. Instead, people go to great length trying to pin it on a character who's been in a separate story from the start with one brief convergence. Remove Poe from equation and it would be Finn who gets a talk-to from an OT hero.

 

Yes, I understand he is supposed to be involved all along, but I still see it as awkwardly done. I think if this had been the plan, Palpatine would have been revealed at the end of TLJ, with Kylo meeting Palpatine in the shadows, just like Dooku and Palpatine in AOTC. That would have worked fairly well.

 

Always felt like Rey and Finn should have been combined into one character.


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The thing is it didn’t have to be that Finn was overridden by Poe or Rey or any other character. It’s entirely possible for films to feature three main characters and give each of them proper time and meaningful story, without taking away from the others. Especially with three films to do it in.

If the trilogy had been more planned out from the start, Finn could have had a much better developed story over three films, without giving or taking from the other two main characters. His force sensitivity, for example could have been revealed sooner and more could have been done with that.

 

I have a sneak suspicion that he was their Plan B in case a female hero didn't connect. But they also did everything in their power to make sure she connected and stood out. So he felt rather redundant and as if keeping her company only until she met characters who were more important to her hero journey. Like, we needed her to act off someone other than a droid and then we had no clue what to do with his character.

@starfish Poe wasn't a main character in TFA. he was expanded later and made one but he wasn't one from the start. And I'm sorry to say but the trilogy didn't gain anything with him. he just wasn't interesting. I think LFL understood that hence the rather desperate attempt to "improve" him with that unnecessary spice runner story from TROS.

 

Finn was not redundant and of course he didn't have to be written to be overshadowed by anyone. TFA exists and Finn has his own story and his own hero's journey that is distinct from Rey. Benching him for Poe suddenly being the second most important hero character was a choice, not an inevitability, and it was certainly not set up in TFA. Finn's story has way more potential for drama than the guy that begins the story as the best pilot for the heroes. There's no arc in the best pilot for the heroes becoming... the best general for the heroes? That's not a journey for this sort of adventure. Poe isn't an underdog or an everyman. His character profile screams supporting role. Finn's absolutely does not.

 

I was thinking about that too. Like at the end of TLJ reveal Palpatine so it's all set up. Instead we get broom boy which works very much like the opposite of Dooku and Palpatine in AOTC.

The big difference in TROS is Kylo isn't working for Palpatine. And the way TROS Skywalker works, Palpatine set up what the writers of Return of the Jedi called a 'Time Lock'. Basically Palpatine creates a situation that will result in the total destruction of the protagonists if they don't stop him in a very limited window of time. It encourages the heroes to take risks and make mistakes. They have no time to reflect on long term consequences because it's all or nothing in the moment.

In Return of the Jedi this was a Time Lock on the Endor Raiding Party, the Rebel Fleet, and Luke. Ulitmiately the pressure was to push Luke towards the Dark Side. In TROS Palpatine is pushing both Kylo Ren and Rey to him. Either to have them kill the other or to get them teamed up against him. For this to work Palpatine is only revealed to the galaxy for like a day or two. It's all seemingly out of no where and with limited time.

I suppose we could have still gotten a scene with Palpatine at the very end. What if it was post credits?? No Kylo Ren in it, but something revealing Palpatine's voice and the lightening flashes of Exegol. Maybe someone toiling away with the Snoke Clones. "We are preparing to send out another my Lord." And then Palaptine's voice "No. Let them deal with each other now. My plan is nearly complete." And if they wanted to all in have Palpatine say "The Return of the Sith is close at hand." or some other maniacal villain thing. And then laughter.

That would have put a different slant on fan mood from 2017 to 2019.

Poe passes the torch to Finn in TFA. Finn had no idea what to do or where to go. So ehe and Rey work as a team. They are largely swept up and taken on their adventure. Poe is definitely more of a secondary character in TFA. But Poe is also more worldly. Like he'd never need to swing by Maz's place. If Poe took the Falcon he'd have an easier time fixing it, and would seemingly already know Han and Chewbacca. The story just doesn't with Poe and all his experience. He'd be more like Han Solo's role.

It's interesting TLJ because Finn leaves to find Rey which sends him on an adventure with Rose while Poe is stays behind to become the Rebel leader and fill the space left by Leia.

 

and then comes back from presumed dead to take the torch back.

 

He doesn't though.

It's an ensemble.

Besides, Finn is more involved in the "force" story of TFA with witnessing Han's death and fighting Kylo.

I'm a little disappointed with his underutilisation in TROS, but several of the characters are a little rushed in the final film. There was a lot to sign-off.
I'm happy he is implied as force-sensitive... it makes watching him in TFA a little more meaningful. Despite having a lot of goofy moments you still get the feeling he is "strong-minded" in breaking free of FO conditioning.

 

But at that point Finn takes on a different role, and his character is going in a different direction. If Finn and Rey are the kid heroes of this story, Poe is more like the older teenage brother or college kid. I'm saying Poe is already further along on his path. He knows who he is. In the TFA he is the most daring pilot in the Resistance. With Ackbar and Leia around Finn doesn't need to be more than that. But in TLJ with Han Solo dead and the Republic gone, Leia see's Poe needs to take on a new role as an actual Resistance leader. He needs to be more than the Resistance's best fighter.

If Finn wasn't in a comma at the end of The Force Awakens he would have left with Rey to visit Luke. No way Finn is staying behind with the Resistance after risking his life to save Rey. Finn just got out of putting a cause ahead of himself. He's not ready to go all in with the Resistance. He's just looking out for Rey.

 

The decision for Poe not dying and getting an expanded role took place fairly early on, during the filming of the first film. I don’t think it really matters much anyways, in my opinion it’s not about which of the main three characters outshines or overrides the other because it’s not a competition. It’s more that really none of them had a really well thought out story from the get go.

 

It sure would have. And it simply could have been Kylo by himself, and suddenly he hears the voice of Palpatine say "Good work, boy. Now that Skywalker is dead, the universe is yours for the taking. I am still alive. Pledge your loyalty to me and it will all be yours..." And the movie goes to credits, leaving the question as to whether Kylo will make the deal with Palpatine or not. I suspect much of the audience would have been completely engaged in that kind of cliffhanger.

And broom boy really sucked. It was bad then. It's an atrocious ending now that we've seen the way it all goes down.

 

I actually liked the ending of TLJ, broom boy and all.

 

I don't think TROS works if Kylo Ren is under the thumb of Palpatine for any amount of time. Or if Kylo Ren even knows about about Palpatine for any more amount of time than we already have. TROS starts only at the moment that Kylo Ren confirms this phantom threat is real. Kylo is never intentionally working for Palpatine. He doesn't know the Emperor is out there. And once he does, he's really working towards killing and unthrowning him.

I don't think the story works as well if there is a two years between movies where Kylo knows about Palpatine. It's very important that Kylo Ren is the top villain for a period of time. I do wish we had more time to see him a ruler of the galaxy.

I think we could have had broom boy and a post credit and very mysterious Palpatine reveal. That would be a new thing for a Star Wars film. I wouldn't even show Palpatine, just the voice. Maybe a black hood from the side.

 

Such a motif should have either been at the end of the trilogy or, alternatively, followed up on with conviction. As it is, it now exists in a meaningless vacuum. It needed the equivalent of the "Lighting of the Beacon" scene in Return of the King, or the call to arms scenes in Avatar. A montage maybe of star systems agreeing to come to the aid of the Resistance. Something to give some scale to the idea that Luke's legendary status had a profound effect on the Galaxy. The paltry shot of all those ships at the end of TROS (which amounted to zip all) wasn't really good enough. It may have been something to actually show lots of different people and races bringing the fight to the Sith Fleet, but we didn't see any of it.

I'm sure a book will go into detail or whatever, but meh. What a waste.