Full Series The Clone Wars 7.10 - The Phantom Apprentice - Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

There are to many awesome scenes for me to pick in this one. Bo-Katan catching the lift, the big fight, Maul screaming his head off when capturing, Maul probing Jesse provides a master class in voice acting from both Witwer and Baker in that scene. I hope for more of that. Hoping the next episode starts with Maul in a cell screaming his head off again "We're all going to burn! We're all going to die!" echoing through the ship.

 

Obi-Wan was by no means the most rule-following Jedi. People like to think he was, and he tried to be, but he wasn't always. I'd say the best example of a "by-the-book" Jedi would be Ki-Adi-Mundi or Luminara Unduli. I wouldn't say Mace Windu either (although I'm sure he'd be a popular choice) since he wanted to execute Sidious on the spot.

 

i don't think he'd reveal it to Ahsoka.

 

I was starting to think I was the only one who noticed this! It gave me a good smile.

 

This is the exact same doubt i had after the previous episode, though i feel that in some part the answer is in this one. In this episode, Maul realizes that the Republic is already doomed to fall, there is nothing anyone can do to stop it. He knows what's coming, and the chaos that will ensue, and the option that favors him the most is to allow Sidious to carry out his plan and to gain whatever power he can in the ensuing chaos. He probably does hate Sidious more than the Jedi, but this is the only path that he can take to get any power.

 

I've got a question. Why did Maul think Anakin would even come to Mandalore? maul never even met him as every time Obi-wan came to fight Maul, he was alone. So why would Maul expect anything different this time around? It's already been stated that Mandalore is outside of the republic's reach and the Jedi have made it clear they will not help Mandalore under any circumstance, so much so that Obi-wan only went last time because of Satine.

I feel like Maul's entire plan relied so heavily on everything falling into place that he would have just been better of just calling Yoda over the phone and telling him what's going on.

 

Yeah it's not a good plan... But it's not meant to be. Maul is visibly/audibly cracking at the seams (kudos again to Witwer for nailing that vocal portrayal) and his own obsession with Kenobi and now Skywalker (cause of his vision) blinds him to the flaws in his scheme.

 

-Holy, are the team implying that in the ROTS briefing room scene, Obi Wan was possibly talking to Ahsoka moments before Anakin arrived late? I'm still wrapping my head around how this arc is heavily intertwined with ROTS.

-At first I thought Dryden Vos was Tarkin for whatever reason, probably due to the iconic thinking pose I automatically associate with the latter. As a fan of SOLO (the only Disney film I really enjoyed), it was very cool to see Vos make an appearance.

-The way Maul disrespectfully sits in his throne, acting like the errupting battle outside was so irrelevant to him he was almost shrugging it off like a store manager telling an employee to clean up a spill on isle five.

-The window blowing out was an excellent action beat!

-Ahsoka believing Maul was the standout moment for me. I was worried they'd make her to dismiss his truth right away, so I was genuinely surprised they gave Maul more than the benefit of a doubt.

-Maul's response as he's abandoning Saxon was deliciously evil

-The fight on the ceiling catwalk was an incredible idea. It very much reminded me of the ninja swordfight in Genndy Tartakovsky's Samurai Jack. Filoni really knows how to give his duelists a challenging battleground where they need to plan every step very carefullly.

-Holy, they caught Maul?! I have no idea where this arc is going now.

-I love how the "Created by George Lucas" credit comes off even more impactful than it already is with the lack of music in the last episode and the drum beat in this one. In fact the single drum beat almost reminds me of Blade Runner's opening credits score.

10/10

 

Did anyone really believe Maul would be able to kill Anakin ? Especially after Filoni decided to have Ashoka on par with Maul ? Even Ashoka realized after the first exchanges Anakin would make quick work of Maul.

 

When Filoni involves, the power levels becomes irrelevant

Even Barris gave a good fight to Anakin;

 

That's the problem with Filoni and the clone wars in general. There are so many light saber fights and opponents fighting each order that it is impossible to have the fights based on actual power levels. So Filoni let the outcome of the fights be based on the outcome he wants to see for the story or on making the fight more balanced so they look more impressive and long.

For example Savage Opress was superior to the duo Anakin and Obi-Wan during their first fight. We know that Maul is superior to Savage. So Maul and Savage fighting together against solo Obi-Wan should logically result in Obi-Wan being completely outclassed. Yet Obi-Wan holds his own and manages to cut off Savage's arm. Just because Filoni wanted to make Obi-Wan look cool in that fight even though it makes absolutely no sense power-wise.

 

Yeah, that's true.

As for Ahsoka, well she didn't even believe Anakin would join to the dark side. So it's obvious that Ahsoka overrates Anakin almost in everything.

 

In my opinion this is the best aspect of Star Wars in general. There are no real power levels and in the end everyone can beat everyone. Fights in Star Wars consists of more of some Dan in the Dojo. It's about involvement, ecconomy, belief and, yes, luck. Pure luck because your enemy gets his head in the clouds and misses a step on the stairs.

@Erkan12 - she doesn't overrates him. Her disbelief has nothing to do with this, but with the time they spent together and what it would mean for yourself if your teacher and friends falls.
Just look at all the people in real life who can't and won't belief that their friends or partners are criminals or murderers. It's natural to think so. It is a combination of "thinking to know someone" and "not wanting to accept it because of the results you will have to face because you were a friend, partner or even the parent of a criminal".

 

It's in the deleted scenes;


---15:53---

Anakin always wanted go with Obi-Wan.

It's like thinking his best parts only, but she didn't see or wasn't able to see Anakin's flaws. That applies to other things as well. She only sees the best parts of Anakin and not anything else. She is obviously biased when it comes to Anakin. Otherwise she knew Anakin was capable of joining to the dark side, he didn't turn to the dark side in one day, it was a long process but Ahsoka wasn't able to see it.

 

@Erkan12 that's what I mean, but it is not her fault or flaw. It's simply life. You never see the bad things or want to see the bad things of a person you're close with. I even think she thought that "well, he choked in front of my eyes and joked afterwards" and thought that Anakin could go dark and back again just as easily. On the other hand Ahsoka has the best idols in a wrong way in front of her: Obi-Wan and many other Jedi didn't see it as well. Padmé as Ahsoka's friend didn't check much about this. A collective blindness that reminds me of all the reports in the news about "the quiet but friendly neighbour".

Sadly there will never be a story that tells us how Ahsoka experienced Anakin's friendship to the chancelor. I can't imagine that she never asked what they talked about. She was nosy when she's been younger. There has to be a conversation between Anakin and Ahsoka with her asking what Palpatine even wants from him (or wanted from him when Anakin was a kid).

 

Yoda and Windu knew Anakin, and they were able to see it.



Windu: ''I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him.''
Yoda: ''A prophecy that misread could have been.''

They see this when they weren't even close to Anakin as Ahsoka was. It's obvious, it's just that Ahsoka and Obi-Wan were blind when it comes to Anakin and they overrate him.

In fact, Ahsoka was so delusional that she still keep denying after seeing Vader,



Ahsoka: "I was beginning to believe I knew who you were behind that mask, but it's impossible! My master could never be as vile as you!"

Which was funny. Not sure if that was Filoni's intention or not though.

 

Star wars always been inconstant with scaling, even in the EU. For Example Grand Master Luke gained this reputation among star wars fans that he is this unbeatable force the strongest force user user in history. Yet one moment hes pinning down Caedus effortlessly, next moment he almost loses to a couple of battle droids and becomes a jobber against weak opponents. Even Lumiya gave him a very tough fight before he killed her.

 

@Erkan12 - they suspected/feared it. None of them saw or knew it. Otherwise you open a can of worms and you are in the position to ask who did the worse thing: the one who committed the acts (Anakin) or those who knew it might happen and did nothing (Yoda, Mace). That is the tragedgy of the prequel era. Everyone was in the position to do something. In the end no-one did something.

In case of Ahsoka: The way from knowing a truth and accepting it is a long and hurtfull process. And in her position on Malachor it didn't matter if she too jumped on the train and seperated Vader from Anakin. If it is easier to fight an enemy as you see it, you do this instead of imagine who's behind the mask.
Look at people who know that their business is broken, but still fight till the day everything breaks down around them. It is basically the same. They know that they have to shut down, but they don't accept it. Or a broken relationship. You know your feelings have changed, yet you don't want to accept that the divorce is neccessary.

 

Alright, how is that any different than thinking Anakin is the most powerful being who has no flaws in battle, as well as thinking that Anakin would never join to the dark side, and not seeing that fact like Windu and Yoda did. These are the same things, she just overrates Anakin in everything. Not denying Anakin's abilities and powers, but she just believes in Anakin's abilities more than others. You just said the many other Jedi didn't see it, no they did. They just couldn't walk in Anakin's room and try to assassinate him because they felt his dark side potential (we know that nonsense actually happened in a ST movie but nevermind). Windu specifically said Anakin should wait in the council chambers when he went to arrest Palpatine, that's what doing something. Yoda said Anakin should train himself to let go of everything he fears to lose. But Anakin simply didn't listen them twice.

Palpatine said the same thing to Yoda, ''Lord Vader will become more powerful than both of us.''

And you know what Yoda said? ''Faith in your new apprentice misplaced may be.''

They both overrate Anakin, and they were both wrong.

 

@Erkan12 - I see it from a psychiological standpoint. Everyone wants to see the best in the people who are close to them. That is why EVERYBODY is blind to flaws, dangers and behaviours of those we are close to.
And as stupid as I think that scene was: If Mace and Yoda would have been so sure about Anakin, they should have just walk in there and kill him. But they opened the can of worms too and somewhat believed in that prophecy (yes, they were reluctant but you don't bring it up when it is plain nonsense).

Actually I think we both mean quite the same. And in the end we are all blinded by characters in movies we like or dislike.

 

Let's move onto a different topic before this argument goes too far.

 

that was one of the big points they lost me on. Savage had like one day of training but he's owning Kenobi and Skywalker. mkay whatever

 

I think Obi-Wan talking to Ahsoka occurs around the time that Obi-Wan says farewell to Anakin (perhaps immediately after?) before departing to Utapau.
The events in RotS are:
1. Anakin arrives late to the Outer Rim Siege briefing.
2. Palpatine requests Anakin be his representative on the council. Anakin is on the council but not granted rank of Master. Obi-Wan tasks Anakin with spying on the Chancellor.
3. Palpatine informs Anakin of General Grievous's location in the Utapau system and that Anakin should be the one to hunt Grievous down (during the opera scene).
4. Anakin and Obi-Wan say farewell as Obi-Wan is sent off to Utapau.
5. This may be when Obi-Wan informs Ahsoka of his mission to Utapau and how Anakin has been tasked with spying on the Chancellor.