ST J.J. Abrams (Director Of TFA & TROS) Discussion Thread—Now Finally Discussing: JJ Abrams

The lack of lore and world-building...yeah... Maybe TPTB remembered the PT backlash and were afraid of the ST setting *not* seeming extremely familiar? Maybe it was due to how little time JJ had to write TFA? I’d love for someone to ask about this in an interview.

 

They had that smart storyteller in Michael Arndt but JJ had him fired.

 

I’ve never heard this. Source?

 

There is no source for that because it's not true. KK had to let Arndt go because he needed more time than Disney was willing to give them.

 

Light the Fuse podcast. Abrams and Arndt disagreed on the script.

 

There were rumors in the summer of 2013 that Abrams was considering walking off the project because he didn't like the direction of the story at the time, and the company denied it. Not so long after, Arndt got removed/left.

https://web.archive.org/web/2014092...rs-vii-kasdan-and-abrams-are-the-new-writers/

The gist of this has now been confirmed by Abrams's editors almost 7 years later.

 

Hopefully this will utterly end his reputation as a "good" director, especially one that has to handle world-building. Abrams wrecked world-building opportunities for Star Wars when he became in charge of Ep 7.

 

I mean...there's a difference between being a good director and being a good world-builder. Most regular audiences wouldn't really care who funds the Resistance or the politics of Republic and First Order; but that being said, I will agree at least that Abrams played 'capturing the spirit of the '77 original' far too literally.

And TROS was really hurriedly done, but at least there's an excuse of the mess made in pre-production.

 

Look I love the Sequel Trilogy and I am happy with what we got and no longer care about others critique, love it, hate it, no skin off my bones..

BUT

If you want the Sequel Trilogies biggest weakness is that ...It's a Trilogy with no Authorial intent.

It's essentially Three Directors each with their own takes on dynamics, characters etc etc...Building off one another yes, but also doing their own spins on it.

JJ essentially set up stuff that he honestly probably had no long term vision for and pretty was like "Do whatever you want with it, I'm out" remember he had no plans to return.

Then Rian and Colin did their own thing and each had their own take on it.

Kylo Ren is a good example of this since JJ, Rian and Colin all had their own take on him.

JJ went with enemy of Rey yes but who was "Called by the Light"

Rian leaned in a bit more into the sympathetic elements of the character

Colin in his draft was gonna go full on Kylo Ren is the Villain and clearly Lucasfilm didn't like that and wanted him to be redeemed so they brought in Abrams to finish him off when Colin's future drafts that all ended in redemption death didn't pan out.

Similar with Rey and her backtory

Rian and Colin both went with nobody but Rian had "Nobody and that's it" while Colin had "Nobody but Kylo killed her parents or in one draft apparently Kylo and Rey were long lost childhood friends"

While JJ made her a Palpatine

My point is since there is no authorial intent with this trilogy then it really is just a game of telephone between three and then back to two directors.

Again that's just sorta the analysis ...I don't really care about the results at the end of the day since I was satisfied but I think it's important to bring up especially with JJ Abrams being the one to start it.

Because reading Colin's script and seeing last Jedi it does feel that JJ, Rian and Colin all had a overacting idea for what the Trilogy was TO THEM and that in some ways Last Jedi feels like Part 2 of a Episode 7 we might not have seen Episode 9 (The Colin Draft) seems like a Part 3 of a Episode 7 and 8 we didn't see.

Strangely Episode 9 does feel like a Part 3 of an Episode 7 we did see only because seeing TFA....I could honestly see this all being a big Palpatine plot at the end of the day.

So if anyone has problems with the Sequel Trilogy I think we need to blame the set up film TFA which probably caused most of the problems by not hammering things down ahead of time and leaving so much vague and open to interpretation that if you don't like Last Jedi (Which I don't since I love that film) then you gotta blame TFA for leaving so many things open to be taken so many different ways.

Reminds me a lot of this video

 

(Addendum since I can't edit)

By doing this method and the way it came out in some ways you are creating 3 sub sets of fans within the Sequel Trilogy itself (Technically two but a small third group)

Essentially you have the people who like the Abrams vision of the Sequel Trilogy

The People (Like myself) who like the Rian Johnson take on the Sequel Trilogy

and if it had been made and the Script is out their so their are some fans...Those who like the Colin take on the Sequel Trilogy.

Again...That lack of authorial intent and the three different takes has sorta created this split.

 

There's a 4th sub set... Those of us who are furious we never got to see Lucas' treatment brought to the screen... That was the true, legit ST.

But I agree with your point.

 

Also I think if you wanna critique Abrams again is the he feels like the most Rogue of the directors

Johnson, Edwards/Gilory and Howard all seemed to have worked well with the overall Lucasfilm infrastructure

I think Abrams doing to many things out from Bad Robot caused some problems for wider franchise projects in some regards.

 

Well I have heard rumor that their have been some ....Differences of opinions regarding hiring between Lucasfilm and Disney.

For example Lord and Miller and from what I heard Benioff and Weiss seemed to be more Bog Iger's idea compared to Kathleen Kennedy....I am more positive on Benioff and Weiss only because Bob pushed them so hard.

Again not sure but I have heard rumors that hiring of directors has been a bit of a back and forth between Kathleen and Bob Iger...Could be just hearsay but I wouldn't be surprised.

Reading Trevorrow's script I feel they got Abrams for a few reasons

1. Like you said Johnson turned them down.
2. JJ could meet deadlines that Disney (My guess) wouldn't budge on
3. JJ was willing to Redeem Kylo and didn't screw up Balance of the Force something Colin's Duel of the Fates scrip did.

I get the feelings that Lucasfilm as a studio prefers Rian's take and Rian Johnsons view of the characters and the world. From what I heard Rian worked far better with the Lucasfilm story group, the infrastructure and is a member of the Lucasfilm Brain trust.

So (And maybe I just read things way to much) I feel Lucasfilm is more or less on Rian's side on the JJ v Rian debate....If there one to be had to be honest.

But considering i see more of Rian's thematics in other Star Wars works then I do JJ's (Granted JJ isn't that deep in themes) that's just the impression i get.

Essentially from what I'm saying is...I think Lucasfilm is more on Rian's side and take when it come to the Sequel Trilogy trajectory and if given hindsight maybe would really want him to have done the whole thing from scratch.

I do think he's still a favorite in Lucasfilm in all honesty...And even if he never makes his trilogy the fact that at first they gave him one so whole heartedly does say something.

Personally even if marketing is worried i think those within Lucasfilm are more Pro Last Jedi then Anti-Last Jedi in all honesty. Especially those with clout like Filoni and Pablo. Not sure what KK thinks personally but I think she still sees Rian with favor.

Plus I feel like TFA's mission was..."Lets get a Nostalgia fest in, make some characters, and will add the depth part later" that's the function of TFA, mostly plot, no story.

Well all I know was that TLJ was being written simultaneously when TFA was being filmed. Doesn't really answer anything, just something odd. But that's what time-tables and no distance between the films apart from the one year gap does to yuh I guess. Maybe if Rian had more time.

Though I still think Kylo was gonna get redeemed considering Colin did go for the full on Evil Kylo and that was scrapped in later drafts.

And considering the supplementary material is trying to soften Kylo's image with the comic and backstory which is even under Lucasfilm STRICTER control (Books, comic, etc....) I do think they are continuing to go with Rian's ideas for the character far more. Granted Charles Soule was a TLJ fan so maybe that could just be it...Will have to see when other authors and a animated series produced by Dave Filoni go into this realm (if ever)

But I think Filoni and Rian share certain similarities and taste in Star Wars and come from the same mold...But that's just my interoperation.

Well I could possibly think that TFA may have tied Lucasfilms hands a bit in terms of molding the Post Return of the Jedi world once TFA starts. I know Pablo wasn't a big fan of Original Trilogy Redux.

So again I really do think from Lucasfilm perspective Abrams is sorta the Rogue director out of the rest...and that he really was just hired for TFA because "Nostalgia fest hype machine mystery box vague will figure it out later" vibes.

 

The more I reflect on it, the more I believe that JJ was a bad choice for restarting the saga. Far too slight and superficial a director. You can’t achieve epic if your style is as rapid-fire as his.

 

From a creative standpoint perhaps but you know...he brought in the big bucks so Disney need that button line money.

Probably why though he might not come back at least for a while...Maybe for a one shot...I could see.

Though I don't think he's on the short list.

Although I don't think Epic Fire is a problem i think it's more mystery box, OT nostalgia, will fill in the blanks and character motivation and story in the next one vibes that's the problem.

Actually maybe your right, TFA is more Epic Fire Plot point, plot point, compared to the story driven slow methodicalness of TLJ story driven elements.

 

I agree... However, I think Abrams 'could' have worked as a director, if he'd been hired just just to direct, and was working very closely to someone else's brief. The problem with Abrams is that he thinks he's a 'creative'... and most of his creative choices are poor.

 

What's funny is that, IMO, if any of the three takes had really, truly been good enough, it would have likely saved all three.

 

I'm taking it from another thread, but I gotta say, JJ is very successful when he references PT whether intentionally or unintentionally.







Bravo JJ! This is really brilliant.

 

I'm in "there's good in JJ" mood today, so here we go:





What a pay off! What. A. Payoff! Wow, JJ.

You cna see he really loves there characters. It sucks that he had too many others to deal with in TROS (some of them he added to already bloated cast completely unnecessarily) but this payoff is ace, They've come a long way.

 

@godisawesome

I think the ultimate difference between you, and the other TLJ fans is that we are pretty much okay with Rian's denouement of TFA characterization and prefer these new characters more or less. Except i could see possible the problems with Finn but that's really about it.

Essentially apart from different plot points I think TLJ fans prefer the readings of TLJ and decide to outright ignore or brush over TFA.

Again no authorial intent for the trilogy so it really is a pick your poison scenario.

HMm...Perhaps...Perhaps I can see that....I guess for me at lot of this will depend on....How characters are handled in other medium.

When we get more Ben Solo backstory how is handled...Sympathetic....Jerkish....What will be emphasized. I suppose since the Kylo Ren comics sorta begins to wipe away some the harsher edges of the characters that the film portrayed that may gives us a hint of what Lucasfilm intent with the character is a company moving forward

Not only that but moving forward as well.

Okay....I can kinda see it....But I guess the question is...Who are the character preferences NOW.

Reading it maybe you are right....It kinda is a war on the character preferences and how you want to portray them.

The JJ way

The Rian way

Maybe there is a third ground that sorta has a nice balance of both, which is a way I'll be willing to go for and strangely I think TROS tries that. If it succeeds is up to the individual.


P.S: In terms of Colin I do like that he tries to give Finn and Rose more to do...In fact those two and the Coruscant plot is something I actually really enjoy in Duel of the Fates and wish was in the film.

Poe is....Odd and DamerRey is just...Creepy.

My problems come from his characterizations of Kylo and Rey

I mean sure I CAN see a scenario of Kylo being full on Supreme Leader baddy but his "redemption" in Duel of the Fates is essentially Leia saying "Come home Ben" he gives Rey his life force energy and then he dies. At least you have a good twenty minutes in TROS of him trying to take on Palpatine and then brining Rey back from the dead.

Rey herself just feels....Off in Colin's script, not very heroic and lacking all the small moments in TROS that I really enjoy from her.

Actually I will give you this Rey in TROS is probably my favorite of the three portrayls.

I do believe in a perfect world a third director maybe could have Synthesized TFA and TLJ to give us the best blend possible.

 

'Snoke has trained Kylo Ren and at least one other apprentice'. This came from an official Lucasfilm magazine (The Souvenir Guide to the Movie Star Wars: The Last Jedi)

Dec.2017. Abrams was already writing IX. Trevorrow had left 3 months before. There's no such 'apprentice' in TLJ, and only Kylo in IX.

But: the DOTF final script (Sep.2017) has this Sollony Ren in it, female and maul-like and from Dathomir. The leaked script (Dec.2016) does not mention her. What happened? Maybe Howard choosing Maul from a list of bad guys. The actor was given a call in July 2017.

Ben Solo/Kylo Ren, Rey Solana, Sollony Ren. Those names...they all sound like Solo family or Snoke apprentices or Snoke apprentices from the Solo family. Qi'ra has been on her way to Dathomir since May.2018 - and she's Solo+Maul in a way.

Weird, and maybe we'll know about this apprentice and his/her genealogy.

There's genealogy of ideas too. Where did Trevorrow find this idea? Maybe it has its origins in Abrams, or at least in Lucas via Abrams during VII's development.

I mean, Darth Talon became young Solo, much like Vader became Luke's father; but Han, as a character, had its origins in Luke, as Lucas explained once, and yet Luke remained Luke. There's concept art of Uber (Snoke) corrupting Darth Talon, and even storyboards (Jan-Feb.2013)



In Lucas mind, Talon and Maul were 'friends':
https://www.gameinformer.com/b/feat...he-darth-maul-game-that-never-came-to-be.aspx

Also:

He's talking here as if Maul was dead and buried. But he 'lived on' in 2017, and also lived on in TCW (2011-12), for example. Maul, the character, was killed some time ago, but so was Snoke and his apprentice lived on...

 

^ I can't help but disagree with JJ in that when I saw Maul die on that opening night in 1999, what it said to me was that Lucas had more great things planned in the next two prequels, and that he didn't need to carry Maul over. It was like Qui Gon, too. These were characters that made up the backstory's backstory. And it gave Maul a mystique that I'd say he's kind of lost since being brought back.