Saga Kylo Ren (RoS) vs. Darth Vader (RotJ) in a duel

Who wins?

 

In this specific matchup, I think Kylo Ren (TROS) defeats Darth Vader (ROTJ,) though I think Anakin Skywalker (ROTS) could defeat almost anyone.

 

Probably Kylo at this point. Vader is a shell of himself in ROTJ. But if you put Kylo up against pre-suit Vader in ROTS or Vader in the ANH/ESB era, it would be a sweep for Vader.

 

Vader could kick his ass in any era.

 

Even though Kenobi defeated a pre suited Vader?

In ANH and ESB Vader was not impressive and did not defeat Kenobi until he lowered his guard. ESB Luke was pitiful.

Absurd. Kylo Ren is quicker, more athletic, and better feats. Kylo and Rey were above Luke and Vader from the Original trilogy.

 

Kylo is fast, strong and angry, but he's also reckless, impulsive and very overconfident. Vader is smarter and more experienced. Also, Vader only faced Kenobi and Luke alone because, for the former, he wanted revenge, and for the latter, he needed to turn him to the Dark Side. Vader could very easily just determine Kylo's location and order a missile strike. He has nothing to prove to who was, to him, an annoying pretender and unwanted fanboy.

 

Vader hunted down survivors of Order 66. The way canon has presented him, he was untouchable after he was in the suit, second only to the Emperor. Nothing in Kylo's history touches Vader's experience. Vader lost to Luke because Luke was his son and he was demoralized. He didn't want to hurt Luke. Kylo mostly just loses throughout the ST, and he's totally unstable. The comics even retconned the Jedi slaughter away from him. He really has almost no notches under his belt. So yeah, I think Vader wipes the floor with Kylo without breaking a sweat.

 

Kylo was the supreme leader Vader never led the empire. One rose above one failed. Wrong in RoS Kylo was balanced, measured and soundly had Rey at his mercy. Ironically Luke had Vader at his mercy in the same fashion.

So with an army he hunted down a fragment of the order. Ben defeated Luke Skywalker and then showed up and tore through his Jedi academy. Kylo supplanted Snoke while he read his mind showing cunning and success in a much more calculated manner than Vader.

Vader threw his saber at his son. Luke was hiding trying not to fight. When he threatened his sister he crushed Vader.

In the films Kylo was wounded by chewie, unbalanced due to killing his own father and was trying to convince Rey to let him teach her. He soundly had her at his mercy in RoS. Rey defeated Palpatine too. Sorry but the newer characters are beyond the older has beens.

 

Snoke was hella weak to me. Kylo didn't come off brilliant there. I thought the scene just robbed Snoke of credibility as a villain. Ultimately, he was a deformed clone that managed to manipulate Kylo against his family when he's clearly a bad manipulator.

At the end of the day, Vader has gone toe-to-toe with tons of formally trained force users. Kylo has gone against... Snoke and Rey. He beat Snoke through really obvious trickery, and he and Rey went back and forth on victories.

Rey held lightsabers and reflected Sheev's lightening back at him. That's not that impressive either. Sheev killed himself with stupidity. All he had to do was stop sending the lightening that Rey was reflecting back at him. None of Rey and Kylo's victories come off that awesome to me. Rey's most impressive moment imo was blowing up a transport using force lightening after holding it in place against its own rocket thrust using the force. Kylo's most impressive force feat was resurrection. But in combat? Nah. Vader hands down.

 

Kylo was a self-appointed leader; he didn't really earn the position beyond the proverbial Klingon promotion. And I get the impression the only reason the FO brass went along with it because he was useful as a symbol and for his powers. And the second he ceased to be useful they'd have killed him with extreme prejudice. Vader at least had a couple of decades to show that he was a figure to be both feared and respected. And Kylo still lost in TROS to Rey.

And I still say Vader wouldn't have wasted his time on Kylo. Just nuke him and focus on more important matters.

 

He was controlled by Palpatine so he got the better of Palpatine in a sense. Past that point he was on his own in his mind and killed Snoke when the opportunity arose. He always wanted to kill Palpatine but due to his aramada he had to play it right.

So? Vader never got the better of Kenobi on his own and Luke dominated him. Luke lacked even training and left yoda but still crushed Vader.

With Ren and Rey post training and him not wounded he had her at his mercy. Ren was better than she was.

Yes, it is since yoda was disarmed and Windu barely could. This’ll was much more powerful since it vaporized him too whereas in the past it just burned him. Rey put Luke on his ass in TLJ and Ben beat himbefire he even became Kylo.

Kylo froze a blaster fired behind him and the person shooting it. Vader’s mobility is veryyy slow. Even ESB Luke makes him look slow and stupid at times.

 

In the Sith you kill then you supplant. Did you want a tyrant to hold a vote? He was the new supreme leader.

Vader had decades to be Palpatine slave so badly he groomed his own son to take his place and he was for it. Vader is not that good. Look at him fail to stop those rebels in rogue one. He does not just nuke anyone. Kylo would find him and hunt him down.

 

I'm not even sure killing Snoke wasn't what Palpatine wanted Kylo to do. Snoke was a means to Sheev's end where Kylo was concerned.

Luke is Vader's son. I don't knock Vader's skills because his son who he didn't want to hurt beat him in RotJ. The whole point of that film is that Luke is Vader's weakness.

Rey had Ren at her mercy in every single ST film. Kylo is alive in the trilogy at all after TFA because Rey allowed it. She allowed it again in TLJ, and then again in RoS.

Freezing a blaster bolt is another of Kylo's cool moments. The thing with Kylo and Rey is that they definitely both have tons of force potential. That's not the same thing as combat experience or skills. In TFA, after he froze the blaster bolt, a big point is still made of the fact that he isn't fully trained.

 

Snoke or Palpatine wanted Luke’s location. He saw him as the threat abdvwhulecresding his mind he still was taken out.

Kylo killed his own father which tore him up inside. He then wants to help Rey and is wounded by Cherie’s weapon yet that does not count? Kylo Beats Rey in RoS despite not wanting to kill her and having such a strong connection to her. Both Vader and Kylo swung savers at Rey and Luke. Vader tossed his saber at him when he was trying not to fight him.

By your rationale Vader does not make it out of RotS since Kenobi let’s him burn. Ren kod her twice in TFA so by your argument he kills her when he freezes and knocks her out before the interrogation. He then kos her against a tree when Finn steps up to fight.

In TLJ at the end Ren and Rey are equal the ship flying through changed everything, they were at a stalemate. Ren completes his training so does Rey so I guess we only look at RoS versions. Kylo had combat experience. Years of training under Luke and Snoke. Ben defeated Luke when he watched him sleep with a light saber. Then we see multiple duels, kills Praetorian guards, Snoke, etc.

Going by experience Luke beats Vader and he had far less experience and training he abandons in Esb.

 

I don't know what you mean by my rationale in terms of RotS. Obi beat Vader. I've never said otherwise. Similarly, Rey beat Kylo in every single ST film. He also beat her in RoS. Sometimes a victor in a duel doesn't take the opportunity to kill their defeated opponent. It happens.

Kylo has almost no combat experience against trained force users, and Vader has tons. Kylo didn't defeat Luke, ever. They didn't have a lightsaber battle, just as Rey never had a lightsaber battle with Sheev, and Kylo didn't have a lightsaber battle with Snoke. In terms of one on one combat, Kylo has next to no experience. He has dueled Rey, who has no more than a year of training through the whole trilogy, and even then her training is with a force user that barely trained.

Luke v. Vader isn't about combat experience. It's about a father being reached by his son.

 

If not for the Rebels' shield, Vader would've blasted the base on Hoth to atoms. And he had no problem with the Death Star zapping Yavin 4. Vader is not stupid; he'll take on an enemy in single combat, but only when it suits his purposes. Otherwise, it's orbital bombardment all the way. Plus, he'll take the time to set up a duel at a time and place of his choosing for maximum advantage. Kylo was a hothead who still lacked that ability.
As for "Rogue One", nobody's perfect. Vader underestimated the Rebels' courage and determination, and the Force was just plain against him. And Vader was initially playing at being a loyal servant, until he could bring Luke over and convince him to join up with Dad and take Palpatine down. (See James Kahn's ROTJ novelization, which outlines the situation very well.)

 

Rey lost in TFA twice. Ren had her beaten before his mother called to him. When he was fighting he had her at his mercy. It happened due to his mother’s death. Once Rey realizes she immediately stops too. Ren knew first hence why he stopped and dropped his saber.

Ben took out Luke Skywalker. That is the guy who destroyed Vader. Likewise Vader’s experience did not save him against Luke. Luke trained him for years. Luke did not even finish yoda’s training before dipping. Luke never defeated Palpatine and Vader did by a sneak attack without even a saber. You can excuse they did not have a light saber battle all you want. Snoke can barely even move and Palpatine did not use a saber in RotJ or RoS. Funny how it only counts now.

How much training did Luke have in EsB? Ben Solo was trained for years by Luke so experience and then by Snoke through Palpatine.

Luke beat his father and after he did so resisted the dark side and pulled his idiotic father out of Palpatine’s slavery he went through for two decades. Luke won the duel without ever finishing training and despite his inexperience compared to Kylo Ren. Sorry but their feats blow anything Vader and Luke ever did in the Ot. Struggle with x wings while Kylo and Rey both pull back a moving shuttle. Rey would destroy Luke too. Jumped over a tie fighter, put Luke on his ass in TLJ when he took her on. Filmmakers intent matters not headcanon. Kylo and Rey both show through feats, statements, etc.to be in their primes and at the peak of Skywalker and Palpatine power in the force. Rey was trained by Luke and later somewhat by Leia.

 

Vader the guy who served under the is of an empire yet never knew where Kenobi was until he revealed himself or the fact Leia was his daughter. He was pretty damn dumb tbh. He can peer into minds yet he was so stupid never to realize it until RotJ. He also could not sense Sidious laughing at him when he lied and said he killed Padme.

Vader never achieved what Kylo did in a few years. Kylo was better than Vader and darker. He killed his father Vader froze up when it came time with his son.

 

Vader puts his grandson in timeout where he belongs.

 

Nah, he beats him worse than Luke did. Kylo was successful whereas Vader was more or less a puppet of Palpatine for decades.

 

He didn't go after Kenobi because Kenobi was hiding out in the Outer Rim and was no threat to anyone; he was out of the picture. He didn't know Leia was his daughter because there was no reason to suspect it. Even Leia didn't know about it, and there was no reason to search for someone who was presumed to have never been born. He didn't notice Sidious when he heard about Padme's death because he wasn't calm and focused; you could've fired a cannon in that room and he wouldn't have noticed. He was overcome with grief. By your reckoning, Kylo should've known where Luke was years earlier and killed him off, and wouldn't have needed a Sith McGuffin to find Palpatine.
Kylo was given his status, but didn't really achieve anything, except basically sucker punch Luke and go into an uncontrolled psychotic rage, then knock off his really foolish master. Kylo did kill Han, but he was instantly nearly shot down by Chewie, who was clearly in the same room and armed. He was then, for a time, effectively battled by Finn and then nearly killed by Rey, both of whom had no Jedi training at all. Kylo was, indeed, angrier than Vader, but he had no real impulse control and comparatively little experience. And he ended up just as conflicted as Vader did, though less effectively. And saying that Kylo was more of a murderer than Vader isn't much of an advantage. Vader had a better idea of when, where and how to use lethal Force. And if Vader threw a tantrum, I don't recall seeing it.
I yield the floor...

 

So despite him hunting Jedi he would not want to kill the Jedi that put him in the suit? Even you cannot even believe this nonsense. He was an idiot for decades. Fooled by Palpatine for sooo long.


Kylo destroyed Luke’s Jedi academy. Kylo got her and found Luke. It did not take him twenty years. Luke died. Kylo killed his family member but Vader was too weak to do it. Yes, he was shot and still did not go down. Vader got killed by fl. Kylo was unbalanced and wounded. Killing his father split his spirit to the bone. As per Snoke who he kills after Snoke mocks him later when the opportunity arises. Kylo achieves much more in far less time.

Kylo was balanced in RoS and crushed Rey. She was at his mercy. Kylo was younger than Vader but evolved far faster and achieved darker deeds and actually slew his master to supplant him as a dark side user.

 

Vader also had to keep the whole Empire in line. It's not nonsense to believe that he had more important things on his agenda than hunting down Kenobi. Certainly Palpatine would've discouraged him from running off to hunt one man who had disappeared and was not involved in much of anything while there was a rebellion brewing. And, as noted in the previously-mentioned ROTJ novel, Vader wasn't fooled forever. He was biding his time until he'd learned all he could from Palpatine, then he'd kill him off and take command. Luke's appearance made things easier for him, since he'd have a potential ally. And the only reason Kylo took over was because Snoke wasn't even really there; Palpatine was pulling the strings and fooling Kylo right up until nearly the very end. And if Kylo was so powerful and evil, why did untrained/little trained Rey manage to beat him each time? At least Vader was conflicted by ambition vs. family. By your reckoning, Kylo should've taken down everybody without any effort. And I still say the FO brass weren't afraid of or respected Kylo. He was just a means to an end, as even Palpatine believed.
One way to express my view is through the plot of one episode of the OTR series "The Six Shooter". Wandering cowboy Britt Ponsett (James Stewart) hears that a young gunslinger wants to challenge him to a shoot-out. Britt has nothing against the kid, and no desire for a fight. But he has a dilemma. If he just rides away, the kid will confront the local sheriff (an old friend of Britt's), who will be no match for him. If he fights, he might lose, either from being not fast enough or unwilling to kill. So, Britt decides to meet the kid outside of town. He meets him and agrees to shoot it out, but not with his revolver. Britt will use a shotgun. He tells the kid that, even if the kid is faster, Britt will still get off at least one shot. And, at that range, the scattergun will still blow a big hole in the kid. The kid hems and haws, but ultimately backs down and rides off.
Kylo is the kid: fast, tough, and bloodthirsty, but overeager, impulsive and without the experience to deal with the unexpected. Vader is Britt: experienced, tough, willing to kill when necessary, but able to plan ahead and set up battles according to his own choosing.
Okay, I'm beating a dead horse here. Over to you...

 

I get the feeling this is ultimately just "Kylo fans vs anti-Kylo fans"... "My points are better because I want them to be"... etc.

 

Point taken. I admit I'm not a Kylo fan, so I'm not objective on the matter.