PT How Yoda vs Palpaltine fight should have been filmed

I am a newbie on the forums and if this had been posted a few years ago, I apologize. I found this youtube video which claims to be based on an earlier version of the fight. This is SO much better than the original. This is EPIC. Why oh why did George have to shorten and downgrade the current one? Oh well. Enjoy, my friends.

 

considering it was being crosscut with the longest lightsaber duel on film it's probably the right length

 

the original ROTS cut was very long a lot of stuff had to be cut.

 

I get it but to completely shorten such an epic fight? What gives?

 

The total length of the two duels is 12 minutes. This is exactly the right length, in my opinion. You just cannot make it longer without messing up with the pacing and the structure of the film (the 12 minutes of duelling + 5 minutes of pre-duel confrontation almost take Reel 6 in its entirety).

Ultimately, each section of the film has to have the right length, it's as simple as that. Once the basic structure of the movie is in place, you just have to cut down each sequence to its right duration.

For example, the "opening act" of the film (the rescue of the chancellor) originally included many more exciting sequences, but Lucas knew it had to be cut down to just over 20 minutes (the first Reel of the film, basically).
On the Blurays, there are a lot more animatic sequences of different action pieces and fights (Obi-Wan chasing Grievous, for example). Again, they contain many more gags than the final film, but they are ultimately excessive.

 

I hear you but the focus was definitely on Obi Wan and Anakin.

 

Which is a problem.

 

Did he really HAVE to though? Peter Jackson doesn't seem to be afraid of long movies, for better or worse (I know it doesn't mean it works each time, but it's possible to pull off).

 

It's more than just about the lenght: it's about the style of the movie. Each director has his/her own preferred style(s), and each movie has to be consistent with the chosen style.
Lucas likes fast-paced movies. He likes to cut everything to the bone, to create an impression from the yuxtaposition of images and soundtrack. He likes the actors to play "faster and more intense". We don't see the beginnings and endings of scenes.The emotion comes from the editing of the movie, and editing that is consistent with his documentary-style tastes.
Lucas also likes movies with clear acts, and likes each act to have a similar lenght. He breaks down his stories into acts, and then each act into scenes (the same number of scenes for each act, although this changes eventually). He makes sure that no act of the movie (or no reel, for that matter) outweights the others. And that's more important than the specific details (or actions) of a certain scene.
I know this all sounds very vague, and I apologize, but I think it's really important to understand how a filmmaker's mind works, and how (specifically) Lucas concieves his movies.
So, in other words: a SW movie (by Lucas) is roughly two hours long (with a short "epilgoue" afterwards), with three 40-minute acts and six 20-minute reels. Reel 6 is where the climatic action happens, and it can't be longer than 20 minutes. And if any section of the film is longer than it should, it hurts the pace of the movie.

A movie is like a full-coursed meal. If you eat too much of one course, you ruin the overall meal.

I'll try to make a simple example, regarding the Yoda-Sidious duel in ROTS:
As I said, Revenge of the Sith is 2+ hours long.
The third act is 40 minutes long: it begins once Anakin has turned to the Dark Side, and ends with Anakin being burnt in the lava.
Reel 6 begins as Padme departs for Mustafar to find Anakin. And in the next 20 minutes we need to see the verbal confrontation and the two duels.
Both duels last about 12 minutes. That's more than enough continuous action. Make it longer and the result is just too much.

 

Palpatine had already taken over. The focus of the movie was rightly on Anakin and Obi Wan and the birth of the twins. And Peter Jackson movies tend to be unsufferably long, esp the Hobbit films. I love the LOTR films. Not sure we need another 10 minutes of Yoda twirling around.

 

Yeah, I think the fight was the right length. Anakin and Obi-Wan's duel was far more important narratively. The Palpatine/Yoda fight was just a nice bonus.

 

I don't like that Sidious seems to lose the duel and Yoda leaves because of Clone Troopers intervening. Other than that, I think it's better than what we got on-screen.

 

Parts of it made little sense though. Palpaltine slowly raises his hands to shoot lightning and Yoda just waits for it, closing his eyes? ??
Palp then waits for yoda to force push him back into the chair?

The part where Yoda ends up on senate chairs is never explained. How? Why? In the script, Yoda is supposed to knock out Palp lightsaber and press hard and Palp manages to push him into the senate seats. THAT makes sense. It got cut out because Lucas has a literary theme going on where losing lightsaber foreshadows duel defeat, hence, audience cannot see Palp lose lightsaber, because he doesn't lose duel.

BS if you ask me. Audience cares more about the flow and fun of memorable scenes, and yes, logic matters... and to make a scene illogical for the sake of some Shakespearean theme seems stupid.

 

Idk. Palpatine raises his hands slowly towards Luke in ROTJ without resistance. We see Yoda react to absorb the blast but it becomes too late. Yoda closes his eyes after he gets hit, because ya know, he is briefly unconscious. Palpatine clearly didnt see Yoda pushing him coming. I don't think that needs to be explained. You sound nitpicky as hell.

That would be complaining about how did Luke at sixth months of Jedi training manage to kick Vader down a stairway. Why didn't Vader land on his two feet instead of screaming?

THEY are in the Senate. Yoda moving 20 feet to a senate chair from the main senate seat isn't illogical at all. Now, yes, we dont see Palpatine lose his saber, but the flow of the duel is not ruined because of it. Would it have been cool to see? Sure. But you can infer what happens pretty easily. I dont need to see how Vader went from pushing Luke out a window in ESB to moving down to the first floor by elevator and then turning off his breathing so he can surprise Luke to understand the flow of the duel.





I think most people are not bothered by the "illogical" aspect of the duel. Its a pretty popular Yoda moment and gets respect. Just like the badly telegraphed and sloppy choreography of ROTJ's duel doesn't ruin the theme or duel itself for most people.

 

You make some good points.

1. I never claimed ROTJ is gold. The movie is worse than ESB and could have been done much better. Couple of points: Unless I forget something from "shadow of the empire", not sure Luke had any prior contact with Sith Masters like Palps who shoot lightning or knew what to expect before it came. He's MUCH weaker than Yoda and once lightning hit, obviously was too weak and had no clue how to block it. Yoda dealt with other Sith in his almost 1000 years of life.

I do however, (somewhat) buy that in the 3 years between ESB and ROTJ he did pick up lightsaber skills and that combined with the "dark side moment rage" made him a much better fighter vs Vader in ROTJ. Again, I don't fully buy it. I am bothered that Vader seemed so weak in ROTJ and I likewise don't know why Vader blocked Luke's shot at Palps after he made the "let's kill Emperor and rule together" speech in ESB. Weaknesses of ROTJ are there and it's a whole separate discussion.

2. Just look at the early sketch of the fight video I posted. How much more awesome is the beginning of the fight there than what we got? The mighty Darth Sidious just waits for Yoda to slowly get up from the fall, say a line and then push him? Could have been done so much better.

 

1. Well, Yoda never dealt with a Sith before Dooku. The Sith have been extinct for 1000 years and Yoda is never shown to confront them. Darth Maul is the first Sith seen in all Jedi's lifetime during the PT. Plus, we see Palpatine is much faster than given credit for. He killed 3 Jedi in a matter of seconds. Yoda could have underestimated Palpatine due to his age, or didn't expect Sidious's lightning to move so quickly. Yoda DOES learn his lesson tho. Palpatine is a master of the dark side unlike Dooku, and his lightning is far more dangerous. Yoda does deflect it, but unlike Dooku, we see Yoda struggle with containing it. On the flip side, Luke noticed Palpatine raising his hands, meaning he would use the Force against Luke in some capacity. Luke could have made an effort to react by either moving out of the way, since he knows something is coming, or using the Force to make an attempt to push Palpatine. Also, the three year gap is between ANH and ESB. On My sixth months pass between ESB and ROTJ.

2. I think all duels could be done "better." Adding several minutes to each duel would improve every duel in the saga. But that doesnt mean what we got wasnt good. It was.

 

Yes it was better than what we got but what we got was still epic....

 

1. You're right about Yoda's history. My mistake. Luke is not the sharpest cookie, unless he was ready to self-sa

1. You're right. I was wrong about Yoda's history. As for Luke, he's either not the sharpest cookie, or he had foresight into how to redeem his father and was willing to sacrifice himself for that. Also, thanks for the 6 month correction - it does make ROTJ scene with Vader being so weak even worse than before.

2. The video I quoted allegedly comes from an official DVD box set - as a bonus/behind the scenes feature of sorts. It's not some fan-made fantasy. They already had everything set for it - they had a perfect fight scene that's hard (even for me) to nitpick. It's better in every way save maybe Yoda cutting a circle in a senate seat with light saber instead of jumping on it. Yes, I still like what we got - it's just a shame it wasn't done as originally planned. Btw, Yoda jumping to a lower level, away from Palpaltine, losing the "high ground" without explanation is lazy.

 

There are elements of this stuff that I like - I do agree that I would have liked a longer fight, specifically from the lightsaber side of things. I was quite surprised here that this version seems to divert from the usual consensus - Yoda is stronger in the Force and Sidious the better duelist, whereas in the final film the opposite seems to have happened, with perhaps the two being equal in Force strength. I also like seeing Yoda having to escape from the Clones.

Ultimately though, I prefer the version we got. The dialogue exchange between Frank Oz and Ian McDiarmid was absolutely incredible and it looks like that didn't happen here. Just wish we could have seen the implied disarming of Sidious by Yoda in the final cut.

This is my favorite scene in all the films, and I had no idea this existed, great thread!

 

My friend, how do you know the dialogue wouldn't have happened in the deleted/pre-planned scene? When Yoda approached Palpaltine's table, I see a similar exchange, as well as when Yoda is knocked out, etc. Palpaltine does not attempt to flee at the start, so we wouldn't have the "If so powerful you are, why leave?" part of the dialogue, but I'm sure these two brilliant actors could have been scripted to say something as equally powerful.

I actually don't like how Palpaltine wanted to run away right away. There is nothing bad per se with him recognizing the strength of Yoda and hence looking out for his safety, but the Palpaltine fans have grown to love is a powerful evil genius and not necessarily a coward. Him running after being shocked by his own electricity and drained at the end of the fight is not the same.

 

That's some clip. I can see the impact the deleted bits had on Palpatine's fighting on The Clone Wars and Palpatine's last stand in The Rise of Skywalker.

Interesting in this version Palpatine is the one who runs away. Not like the movie when Yoda who sees there is no victory in the situation and retreats.

 

I would love to have had more shots in both the Yoda and Vader/Obi Wan duels in ROTS, but because GL decided to fit them both as intercuts in what amounts to a fight montage for that part of their duels, it had to be this way. Otherwise it would've felt like the podrace-entertaining, but drawing on and on and on. Personally I wish Yoda did a bit more actual dueling and less jumping around on stuff. I suppose they had to change it up from AOTC but I liked the AOTC duel.

 

I should also say I loved how the Holocams in the senate chamber were filming their duel, and the signal was ultimately cutoff. I like how it showed up on the jumbo screens above, and I also like the implications of how that duel could've looked to the galaxy at large (assuming it was broadcast-don't see why not), having seen only a small part of what all happened. I could imagine Palpatine showing that to citizens, as a way of further deceiving them that the Jedi were attempting to assassinate him and take over the Senate. I love that idea, I'm sad it was ultimately cut.

I also prefer how the duel began, with Yoda using the guards to block Palpatine's Force lightning. I should say I do prefer how the duel ended in the film though. I didn't like that Palpatine ran away in the end in this clip.


PS. I know this is a double post, but I had some more thoughts-and this is two days later.

 

Love it. I love Yoda "calming himself", getting more in touch with the Light side, before turning the Force Lightning back on Sidious, and I LOVE the ending, with the situation becoming simply untenable, with the many clone Troopers opening fire... I've always felt something like that would be a much more satisfying way to get to what the movie's place in continuity demanded.

 

Huh?