Lit The Morality of Empire in Legends

Good call. SW stories have always been influenced by the (real-world) era in which they were written --- notably, Legacy's entire run occurred after the opening of the Dark Knight trilogy and before the closing. The era of grimdark superhero stories, with the MCU still in its pre-Avengers infancy. In that Ostrander post I earlier linked to, he's even describing Legacy as Star Wars "interpreted for today which is not the same world as when ANH first debuted."

Don't get me wrong, I loved the hell out of both Legacy and Nolan's Batman films --- we all did --- but I'm also glad that era of pop culture is over, for a lot of reasons.

 

I mean one of the things about Canon is that in many ways we are just talking about Star Wars storytelling as it being told from 2012-present and the culture we live in today.

The divided only feel really there because we officially rebooted the actual story.

But I'm curious even if Legends continued we'd see more of the culture shift in Legends storytelling effect the story.

 

That's the part I'm still most curious about, and it often gets lost in the discussion: Now that we're in an age of nationalism/tension/disease/misinformation, who knows what the Legends timeline would've looked like influenced by all that... along with that "hopepunk" mindset/moving away from grimdark content as that stuff's gotten more of a backlash. Hell Legacy itself is seen as a bit of an edgy joke.

 

It... would have been tough. Even if the intent were there to tell more hopeful stories that pushed back against the real-world resurgence of fascism, Legacy already had a re-ascendant Empire locked in. Denning and Golden each had a trilogy set up, guaranteeing more of the same. The Imperial Remnant would have continued to name Star Destroyers after martyrs like Pellaeon. And Zahn would probably still have gotten to write a new Thrawn-worshiping book every few years.

But would the intent have even been there? If Lucas had stayed at the head of Lucasfilm and continued to oversee TV shows, the publishing arm just wouldn't have had the same kind of oversight or media scrutiny that it currently does under the non-Lucas "everything is canon!" system. Calls to bring more diverse voices to the table would have come from a small but angry group (read: us), and changes, no matter how necessary, probably would have come way too late if at all.

I've always felt the reboot was the best possible course of action because of how lazy, atrocious, and insulting the storytelling had become by Fate of the Jedi (insert six-hundredth "Mercy Kill was an apt title!" joke), but every year I feel like I'm realizing more and more reasons why the reboot was absolutely for the best.

 

One of many reasons I don't like those comics.

But yeah, like, especially in the Post ROTJ timeline, because you would still be stuck with Legacy as the "End point" per say granted I guess they could have just kept going even further into the future but then the book/comic divide still would exist.

Not to mention Legends would still be building off of all the stuff that came with it, so you have all the baggage and what not. Granted Canon will eventually come to a point were it will have it's stuff it will have to build off of, we have already 5 movies already so those are some big tent poll things.

It is defiantly curious to think about.

@Jeff_Ferguson

It probably would have just gotten messier with Lucas just steamrolling stuff. Like his Sequel Trilogy would have probably just steamrolled over whatever books got in the way and most likely would have caused a implosion to the point things would have gotten irreconcilable in a way not even TCW could reconcile at least with the Post Jedi stuff.

Granted Zahn still going strong with his Thrawn stuff, I suppose the only difference is now at the end of the Thrawn's journey is still Rebels. And a possible Rebels successor series if rumors are true which may or may not have Thrawn (Hopefully it does I want Thrawn in post Jedi timeline still)

Still, I do see this discussion gives go ammunition for the necessity of Reboots every few decades or so, especially when Cultural shifts start to happen. Clear away some of the baggage, minus perhaps important things

 

This whole shift in perception is why I don’t expect to see the likes of Mike Stackpole on a Star Wars book in the immediate future.

 

Yeah, I hear people wishing for his return a lot ...Funny how Zahn because of Thrawn popularity got to come back. Granted I think they did the smart thing of now just letting Zahn work in his own tiny bubble with the Chiss Ascendancy letting him make his own faction away from the Star Wars galaxy but still apart of it.

Granted I'm surprised Luceno hasn't come back after Catalyst. But maybe again Luceno, Ostrander, Stackpole, they may all not come back since Lucasfilm isn't look for their brand of Star Wars storytelling anymore.

Honestly the whole shift in perspective and culture is sorta why I find the whole Legends v Canon compare and contrast rather frustration, they are both separate things trying to be seprate things. It's both cultural shifts but also Canon isn't trying to be what legends is, it's really is doing it's own thing. That thing might not be for everyone and I respect that but to say one is better than the other or vice versa is honestly silly in my opinion.

Now talking about the shifts and what is being done different I think is interesting.

I guess since we wanna shift gears we can talk about the Sith Empire or Empire's. I feel like SWOTOR things made things a bit muddy once the whole Valkorian thing came into play. Though for the most part the Sith were still just baddies. Be curious to see how NuCanon handles the Sith Empires once we get some stuff.

In fact I am honestly gonna be fascinated when/if (My bet more when) all that Old Republic stuff is developed for the NuCanon because it will have official Lucasfilm oversight instead of just...Here some games and comics.

 

From what I recall, that was less to do with LFL taking issue with Zahn’s depiction of the Empire in his new novels, and more so that he could continue to tell stories without having to sit on his hands and wait for Dave Filoni.

 

The SWTOR Sith Empire is a good take on Empire. They aren't all monsters, but they ARE evil, slavery and racism (at the start of the game) are endemic and the Sith are violent and dictatorial. BUT we SEE the Empire change as they let aliens into the power structure (something we NEVER see in legends, even in Legacy there is all of 1 non-human officer and he is replaced by a human-high culture human), both as Sith and as officers. The Sith SEE that racism is limiting and change it. But they don't stop being monsters, even at their 'best' they still plan to kill civilians and have to reigned in by the player, these are not 'good' people by any strech.

By contrast the Republic gets better, yes one leader was a fool and dumb, but even then she was committed to the war and the leaders both before and after her are decent people even the other officers in the Republic care about helping people. Your contacts in the new expansion, stop on their way to you to help some refugees under pirate attack and then hand out supplies to them (the leadership as well, they even ask you to join them).

 

In Crimson Empire II, we saw multiple aliens in the power structure - a Myke, a Defel, and a Whiphid.

 

Regarding the Empire(s)... judging it good or evil when looking at it from various angles that highlight either side one should not forget that every utopia looks brilliant and working but only so long one does not notice the downside to it the dystopian foundation.

Paralell the Empire with Panem f.e.:

You got autocratic rule and a wealthy Core, strong military keeping order and the outliers split up into oversectors for better specialisation and control. Some oversectors have it better, focus on education or military and production whereas others are stripmined and near-enslaved. Add to that propaganda and fake-chances with bread and games that keep the outliers fighting each other instead the Core.

More paralells:
District 13 as nuked Alderaan and its rebel legacy then and Katniss/Rey taking the final battle to Coruscant instead of Exegol.

Spoiler

One might even add in a corrupted Rebel leadership as Panem had it. God I loved the scene where Katniss shot the corrupt rebel leader and had President Snow laugh before the people took him down. Imagine that for SW: Not Leia but whoever succeeded her, turning the Resistance into a dark anything goes mirror of the FO to win... after victory, with Palpatine captured instead of dead, she kills the corrupted leader and leaves as everyone else takes laughing Palpatine out.

Pity later depictions lacked them again. But in general I do wonder, would the Empire, an Empire that allows aliens, use them different than a Republic would? I do see the Republic attempt for minority representation of aliens to counter human superiorty numberwise, but the Empire might not go for that and bank on human superiority numbers which is why aliens have equal chances but less likely to rise to the tops. Therefore the Empire might though in other parts have interesting pro-Alien ideas, like using them more specialised for their advantages. Be it production, stealth, military, etc. and have them have more free reign in these parts where they are more useful and at home with their own natures? Sure not all like that but in a way the Empire might optimise and specialise in a way that gives certain aliens superiority in these branches to perfect them where humans could not. Like TOR had the Chiss dominant in the Intelligence branch most of all. Brute.like alien species most likely in the military etc.

 

I don't think Stackpole would have any problem sliding into modern Star Wars, and I certainly don't think that he's "the likes of" anything indicative of a regressive viewpoint --- having been more sympathetic to the enemy rank and file than to its officers in some of his books isn't exactly horrifying or anything. Stackpole's Twitter is very progressive, very critical of Trump, very supportive of POC-authored fiction, and very critical of gatekeeping in fandom, and it includes plenty of retweets of modern SW authors promoting their new books, too. He's not a relic of the past, and I think he would be a natural choice if new-canon ever pulled the trigger on Rogue Squadron.

I also think this thread needs to be careful about veering into conspiracy theory territory. Like you said, Zahn playing in his own sandbox so as not to be constrained by Rebels and its possible successors doesn't mean that anyone at LFL takes issue with his depiction of the Empire, and similarly the lack of Stackpole so far doesn't mean anything, anything at all.

 

Well, when I say “the likes of Stackpole” I’m generalising and referring to pretty much every 90s EU author. The kind of author who would write big threat of the week militaristic storytelling, which, by and large, canon publishing seems to have moved away from in favour of focused character pieces.

Someone like Zahn though, makes that transition easier because his books post HoT are mostly whodunnits in Star Wars.

 

The Crimson Empire is even in universe, an aberation. We never see a Whiphid Moff (there is a Chiss Moff in Legacy but that is it), we don't see many officers or anything like that in the remnant in any of the post CE works.

Also the guy who set up the CE was a Sith, so maybe the Sith are more egalitarian than the Empire.

@ColeFardreamer The Sith Empire in SWTOR might provide a guide for how "aliens in the Empire" could be treated. Though the Sith do have a very differnt outlook on life than the Empire.

 

We do see a huge number of alien military members in Darksaber, many of whom may have been officers as well as rank-and-file.

 

Do we? I don't remember seeing ANY in, HoT, NJO or post-NJO and the only ones we see in Legacy are grunts.

Maybe Daala did have them in there and Pellaeon purged them.

 

Good catch! But the Empire was in need of ships and crews hiring criminals even and thus became more mix and match than previously out of necessity not policy change.

Ideologically, seeing aliens uphold Imperial ideals and fighting for them is difficult. For one, some alien culture align nicely with the Imperial doctrine if removing human high culture as its sole perpetrator. Then again, other alien populations kinda are brainwashed and manipulated into servitude like the Noghri had been.



Imagine had Vader worn golden armor instead of black... the Ewoks would have sided with the Empire instantly at Endor! Ouch!

 

I want Stackpole back, miss him

 

Stackpole, Zahn, Allston and many lesser known authors from the WEG Adventure Journals really worked well with each other and played off of each other. You felt they could trade characters and it still fit and Empire, setting, galactic stage all felt the same. Unlike with some other authors later on where each is good but has his/her own flair and interpretation of the galaxy, Empire, etc.

In part, Stackpole, Allston, Zahn, etc. worked so well because WEG gave general guidelines and they are roleplayers that admitted to playing their stories before writing them sometimes even. So WEG dynamics are ingrained in their writing and their story conception. That unifies them further. Whereas later authors, relied solely on LFL or Storygroup guidance kinda lack this central uniting factor or depending who they work with in storygroup, get a different take on the whole as guidance.

Military focus of Stackpole, Zahn, Allston aside they each dabbled in Force mystery and had rich stories and characters instead of just focussing on the military side they excelled in.

I wish we had gotten more full length novels of Charlene Newcomb and others. Heck even more of other early on authors like Wolverton, Tyers and co. I mean, I do love my Kevin J. Anderson stories and his EU guidance as JAT and YJK framed it kinda, but his style was different. Whereas the Zahn/Stackpole/Allston gang had warlords of the week, Anderson focussed more on superweapon and/or Forcebased enemy of the week.

When people often talk the Thrawn trilogy vs. Dark Empire as post-ROTJ kickoff, rivalling each other with novels winning out ultimately as main line post ROTJ, I do wonder how JAT fits into this trinity of EU kickstarters. In a way JAT was also its own thing before post-JAT books bridged Daala, Pellaeon and other influences from Zahn and Dark Empire. Did JAT work more off Dark Empire than the Thrawn Trilogy?

 

I would generally say the legends authors were of higher quality given their backgrounds writing military science fiction and some fantasy. Though of course, that's my particular opinion.

To answer the OP-the empire is more comparable to a particular Byzantine dynasty than say Nazi Germany. The Felpire can be understood as a successor dynasty of sorts. With the remnant as an interregnum. Though of course the republic presents an issue here. Which is why I argue that both the Remnant and NR/GA/Alliance to Restore the Republic are technically warring successor governments of the old Republic-the empire merely the republic transformed, and the alliance and its successor governments are comprised of Jedi and alienated Senatorial elites who wanted to...restore the republic.

This strikes me as a far more nuanced approach than simply brandishing the fascist moniker without any understanding or deftness with what that term meant historically(which was a whole load of different things).

 

At this point the Empire should just do "whataboutisms" the way real life dictators do. Palpatine would point out how the Sith species has disappeared (the Jedi must have committed genocide too), the blatant speciesm in Rebel leaders (Mon Mothma calling him a "Rodian in Ewok's clothing"), and the Rebels' allowing drug dealers like Han Solo into their ranks. Of course ignoring (just like real dictators who engage in "whataboutisms") that, even if those were all true, that still wouldn't justify his own behavior.

I do love that Obi-Wan in Star Wars Legacy immediately shut down A'Sharad's "whataboutism" by saying the Jedi were also warlords by saying "Past mistakes don't justify current ones".

 

Well according to Wookieepedia she was an elected dictator within the Alliance (don't have the Rebel Alliance sourcebook on me right now to see if it's true, will try to find it later) https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Chief_of_State_(Alliance) :

The Chief of State of the Alliance to Restore the Republic was an elected dictatorship. Throughout the Galactic Civil War, Mon Mothma held the position of Chief of State. She had virtually unlimited authority over the Civil Government, although checks and balances were in place to ensure she did not overstep her position. Her decisions could be overturned by the Advisory Council with a two-thirds majority, in which case Mothma was required to step down from the position of Chief of State. The Chief of State position was up for election every two years. Each Allied Command had a single vote and the victor was elected by a simple majority vote.

 

The more recent Rebellion Era Campaign Guide, for Saga Edition, states exactly the same thing - that "Chief of State" is essentially an elected dictator, and that elections are held every two years.

And that the Advisory Council has the power to approve or disapprove their actions, as well as remove them if they disapprove of the Chief of State's conduct.

The references:

The information broker grumbled. "Information on Imperial activities, eh? Couldn't narrow it down a little, I suppose? Noooo , that's too much to hope for, isn't it? We could at least limit ourselves to current Imperial activities, couldn't we?"
"Yes," Leia said. "We want to know what the remnants of the Empire are up to right now."
"Oh, good -- that's much easier, isn't it?" the shell creature said sarcastically. "I suppose you require a specific listing of every individual's activities -- I have records of five billion or so, and that's without even looking hard -- or would generalizations be good enough, hmmm?"
"Generalizations would be sufficient," Leia answered tightly.
Without a word, the smooth head slipped back into the dark opening with a wet pop. Leia heard muffled rummaging sounds as the creature stirred about, as if it were searching through a labyrinth inside the enormous shell. She wondered what the creature could be doing in there; then the damp head popped up again and turned its eye cluster toward Leia.
"You're in luck, aren't you? -- plenty of schemes afoot. Imperial forces have been unified, squabbling warlords executed. Starship construction increased tenfold, new soldiers appearing by the tens of thousands -- that the sort of thing you're looking for? Imperial military forces have clustered around a single commander, and it would appear that even women and aliens are allowed to serve to the extent of their abilities -- a vast change from the Emperor's way of thinking, wouldn't you say? Charming to see an enlightened Imperial commander, isn't it?"
Han looked over at her, and Leia sat up straight. The alien information broker had piqued her interest, despite her initial resistance. Could it actually be telling the truth? Leia suspected this entire charade was still part of Durga's scheme, a distraction to keep them concerned about one threat while the Hutts completed another one. But even Durga's ulterior motives did not preclude an actual Imperial plot.
Leia said, "Do you know what their plans are? Has the Empire formed some sort of strategy?"
The information broker wavered in the air. "Scattered Imperial fleets have come together with such a buildup of weapons they are almost certainly planning a major assault against the New Republic , wouldn't you think? Specific target unknown, so it's no use asking, is it?" The information broker swiveled its eye cluster toward Korrda. "May I go now? I have a lot of work to do -- you can see how busy I am, can't you?"
"Wait," Han interrupted. "Who is this new Imperial commander? I need to know."
The information broker rumbled deep inside its body. "Oh, that's all you want, is it? Why not ask for the number of sand grains on the beaches of Pil-Diller , or ask me to count the leaves in the forests of Ithor, eh?"
Korrda rapped the shell with his gnarled stick again. "Shut up and answer the question."
"All right, all right, I was just getting to that, wasn't I?" the information broker said, and slithered back into the shell, where it rummaged around for an interminable time before it finally popped out again. "Daala," the creature said. "The admiral in charge of the Imperial forces is named Daala, you see? But that's all -- I've scraped the walls, haven't I? Since I have no more information, good night!"


Ships large and small clustered around a staggeringly immense grid of landing platforms and docking bays, a huge nexus built of metal and glittering with panes of transparisteel. It hid in the dark void of space between star systems and would not be easy to locate unless one already knew where to look. The complex was studded with antennas and trackers, perimeter defense satellites, and automated droid ships that monitored the dizzying flow of ship activity. The coordinate vectors took them to a central platform where thousands of ships had already gathered. Dorsk 81 stiffened in his seat.
"Easy,” Kyp said. "We have to do this."
The alien gave a jerky nod and brought the shuttle in to land among all the other ships. Figures streamed toward the open mall area of the nexus station, a room large enough for an audience of tens of thousands. Stormtroopers marched about, ushering spectators to acceptable standing places for the rally.
"I can't go out there," Dorsk 81 said. "The Empire doesn't allow nonhuman soldiers."
"They seem to have changed their rules," Kyp answered, indicating some of the uniformed personnel, an array of exotic humanoids and strange flying creatures.
"Here." Kyp rummaged in the shuttle's uniform bin. He pulled out two sets of overalls with the insignia of the repair team assigned to the outer depot where Kyp and Dorsk 81 had stolen the shuttle. "We'll wear these, and nobody will know the difference."


And it was made clear in HoT that the Empire had moved away from "oppression of aliens".