PT Jar Jar’s proposal doesn’t make any sense

I think it's simply a matter of declaring an 'emergency' situation. By making it clear that the Republic is at threat, you motivate the Senators to initiate wartime powers for the Chancellor, which would include the Clone army regardless of vote.

Since the Sep attack is impending, they go with the Emergency Powers vote faster than any specific army vote.

 

Yes I think the key part is that they don't say the Senate will never vote to create an army, it's that they will never vote to create an army in time. Democracies are notoriously slow to act and prone to gridlock. This is prominently featured in the plot of TPM. The pros are it makes it more difficult for the government to abuse its power, the cons are time-sensitive issues, such as waging war, tend to fester while everyone struggles to get on the same page. All the details and stuff have to be ironed out by a committee. How are we raising this army? Is it around forever or are we disbanding it once the situation is normal again? What qualifies as "normal"? Are we allowed to make a preemptive strike or is it only for defense? How big does it need to be? Etc. Etc. While this is being discussed the Separatists could potentially launch an offensive of their own and win the war before the Republic is even ready to fight. That's Dooku's whole pitch to the Separatist leaders he's recruiting. "We have an army, they don't. What's there to lose?" Correct me if I'm wrong as it's been awhile but Obi-Wan's report of the droid army on Geonosis is what prompts the who emergency powers thing in the first place, right? People start panicking, someone says "Hey Palpatine could get us an full blown, ready to use army in a matter of hours if we just vote him the powers. Then we can start using it now and he can deal with all the future details when we get there.", and since Palpatine is publicly popular and definitely not an evil wannabe dictator, you can totally trust him to do what's right and return those emergency powers when there's no longer an emergency, and boom next thing you know the powers are his and those scummy Separatists are getting their butts kicked on Geonosis. Mission accomplished. Sadly Dooku escaped so there's going to be more battles before you can begin to consider disbanding the army but hey, those emergency powers aren't expiring any time soon so no need to worry about that because Palpatine has got everything under control. Good thing they elected a strong Chancellor and not some pushover like Valorum. He couldn't even protect a single planet from being invaded.

 

I went back to the script of AOTC, and these are the first lines after Obi-Wan's hologram sent to Coruscant for informing of the situation on Geonosis:

From what I reported if I don't make mistakes the part in red is the only one absent in the actual movie. Mas Amedda clarify better the worrings of Bail Organa and the reasons because to give emergency powers to the Chancellor could resolve the crisis: after the recent revelations of Obi-Wan he is pretty sure that the senate will end to approve the use of an army against the separatistis. But this will never happen in time if they don't get extraordary measures, becuase the debate in senate will be still long.

This part is absent from the movie like I said, but even so IMO there was really no need to include it because:

1) Organa states how the senate will not approve the creation of the army in time, so giving for granted that they will approve it sooner or later and that the problem is only the timing;

2) Lucas applies his usual modus operandi to get an element of the previous movie and expand further in the next one and we can see the same even here: the situation that we attend with the separatist crisis is nothing new compared to the one of Naboo in TPM. 10 years before Amidala reached the senate for getting help for his world but ended to realize how the system is far from working efficiently, corruption and burocracy started an inner debate about the real need to give a such help, at the point that at its end Naboo would have been already annihilated from the Trade Federation. Palpatine proposed to Amidala a chancellor with a more strong role given from his status as soultion... and this is exactly what we see to happen even in AOTC, even if now the proportions of everything are clearly different.

So I think that it was decided to cut the part of Mas Amedda that, even if making everything more explicit, would have appeared redundant at the same time for the reasons stated before it

PS: I just read now the response of @LedReader that basically wrote in a better way the same reasoning that I mentioned in my post.

 

No, Mas Amedda's line is in the movie. In this form, to be exact:

"This is a crisis! The Senate must vote the Chancellor emergency powers. He could then approve the creation of an army."

 

Thanks for the clarification, you are right, i reminded bad. Even so his sentence is formulated in a way that doesn't say explicitely that the Chancellor could bypass the timing needed from the standard route, but this appear even more the only logical reason for giving a such answer after Organa's words.

 

And another key thing is that all these questions would inevitably fall along partisan lines.
The Anti-Militarists, if they must concede on the army, would be determined to make sure it remains temporary, small, incapable of trampling over civilians, and constantly reporting to them on every single technical matter to the point where it would be grotesquely inefficient.
The Militarists would almost certainly want it to be permanent, massive,

capable of taking action at a moments notice and ​

ruthlessly efficient.

All these questions would likely need to be made into compromises that are capable of drawing votes from both factions and that could take months or years.

But at no point does Palpatine make a definitive statement on how he feels about any of it. He starts the film by trying to hold off the vote for the military creation act for as long as seemingly possible. When Obi-Wan discovers the droid foundries, and the war preparations of the Separatist Council, he tacitly admits that the need for an army has become inevitable (Something even Bail Organa doesn't deny), and "humbly" agrees to take on emergency powers. He does nothing that could anger either side of the debate in any significant way, and because he is trusted by both sides they are willing to defer to him on all the questions listed above, especially because the Separatists are preparing for war.

Neither side needs to take a tough vote, they don't need to spend months crafting compromise after compromise, and both sides can reasonably expect that after the crisis has past the emergency powers will be voided, the Clone Army dissolved, and they can get back to their endless bickering without the specter of invasion by a hostile power hanging over their head.

 

I think it comes down to a matter of the senators trusting Palpatine's judgment and a preferred deference to his decisions over endlessly debating and squabbling over the details of every move with other senators, despite the fact they mostly all now agree a Separatist threat is eminent and an army & it's maneuvers are needed asap.

 

This. To me Jar Jar's proposal makes perfect sense, as the main thing in their way was time. The only way to quickly counter the Separatists show of aggression was to cut thru what would likely be a drawn out debate of voting on an army, to just let the Chancellor put it into action, since it's obvious now that they needed to do something. It's similar to Padme's speech in TPM of "I was not elected to watch my people suffer and die while you discuss this invasion in a committee." Same principle there.

 

As mentioned in the above posts, it’s because otherwise the Senate will get bogged down in yet more debates. There will always be that one faction that slows everything down with questions and maybe calls for investigation if they’re wondering just how they suddenly came into possession of a fully-trained, well-armed army seemingly out of nowhere. They may even start debating the morality of using clones as fodder. I mean, we’ve already seen debates here and elsewhere about the moral implications of using clones and we’re not a galaxy under impending threat of invasion from the other half of the galaxy.

If there’s anything the Prequels showed clearly, it’s the endless debate after endless debate. Politicians arguing and bickering over every little thing possible. Is it any wonder why Anakin thought a system of government where people are forced by a supreme leader to act might be better off than what they currently have? A Senate that gets nothing done, even when a core planet is currently being invaded?

Granting the Chancellor the powers skips all that. It’s a polite way to say, “OK, everything’s in his hands now, so STFU.” We even see this in ancient societies like Rome, where if things got really, really, really bad, a consul would be appointed dictator (i.e., given absolute control and can subvert the senate) until the crisis abates and he returns power to the senate. What got Julius Caesar in trouble with the Roman Senate was he didn’t want to give up his powers. He wanted to be dictator for life which was...the exact opposite thing they wanted from him.

 

^ Yep, basically. A lot of people complain about the relatively arduous politics in the PT but miss the point of it all. It illustrates why a governing body would resort to giving a leader executive powers in a time of crisis. To cut through all the berueacratic red tape and partisan quagmire. More action, less deliberation.

 

But if there are enough people in the senate to effectively bog down the process of voting on an army, that would imply that there are also enough people to vote against giving Palpatine emergency powers. There needed to be a reason why the senate decided to go ahead and use the clone army of mysterious origins while also wanting to give Palpatine emergency powers. Several people including myself have given good reasons that could have worked within the story, yet Lucas couldn't be bothered to provide one. No one is saying that there is no logical reason this would have happened, we're just saying the film doesn't address it and just expects the audience to fill in the gaps.

Each prequel film has one main senate scene which shows how Palpatine gets all of his political power. TPM shows that the senate thinks Valorum is ineffective as a leader and they decide to replace him. Palpatine gets voted in because of a sympathy vote that he previously mentioned would probably happen. ROTS shows how a Palpatine, with essentially unlimited wartime powers, is able to reform the Republic into an Empire because the majority of the senate agrees with him and allows it to happen.

AOTC is the one where people are confused. The senate doesn't have a 51% majority to vote for an army, but they somehow get 51% to vote to essentially create a possible dictator even though everyone knows that the first thing he is going to do is create the army that the senators were opposed to in the first place? Again, the senate finds out that the Separatists have already made an army and are ready to wage war, so the next logical step is for the senate to decide to vote for an army too. So why are the emergency powers necessary? Either everyone is in agreement or they're not.

This is why people always say that in order for the events of the prequels to take place, the characters all have to be idiots.

 

The issue is the details. The people who are pro-army are not necessarily all on the same page as to what the rules for that army should look like. Instead of spending weeks/months debating these details in subcommittees, and possibly losing the war in that time, by giving Palpatine emergency powers he can make the specific decisions whenever they come up and get the army in the field right now. At that point he’s pretty popular amongst the senate so the majority is willing to trust him, and I’m sure it doesn’t hurt that the proposal comes from a seat that previously opposed the whole army business.

 

And those details are?

None of this is ever stated in the movie.

When are we told he is popular? The only thing you've mentioned that was actually stated in the film was that Padme's seat flipped sides. And as of note to my earlier comment that the senate seems to be filled with idiots... it was an actual idiot that was tricked into flipping sides. This makes it seem like everyone would have to be as dumb as Jar-Jar in order for Palpatine's plan to acquire emergency powers to actually work.

 

I feel like both episodes 1 & 2 did enough set up to establish why they did what they did without having to out right say it.

Plus, considering the situation they find themselves in, I feel like it’s less them being outright stupid and more of them simply being desperate to survive a war they are horribly unprepared to fight.

Episode 1 already established how ineffective the senate was when just one planet was being invaded. What makes you (or anybody else for that matter) think they’d handle the threat of a galactic scale conflict any better?

 

Sort of, actually the problem wasn't that the process of voting was being bogged down, Palpatine himself was holding off the vote in hopes his peace negotiations would succeed (or so he says ). Meanwhile Senator Amaidala was working to oppose the bill, should the vote take place, because she saw it as nothing less than a declaration of war, which would in turn grievously hurt the negotiations.
Both of these implying the Senate was actually leaning in favor of the bill. However, the vote itself was simply being postponed.

And with that said, at this point most Senators would not likely have chosen to give the Chancellor emergency powers. Should such a radical idea be proposed.

There is; the full extent Kenobi's intel from both Kamino and Geonosis.

The entire Senate now knows the enormity of the Droid army and how many powerful corporations and unions are in league with Dooku.

I think the story clear enough.

One also must understand how Lucas crafts his films. He was heavily inspired by Kurosawa's style of not explaining every detail to the audience, of say, the nuances of feudal Japan. The events just unfold like you're a fly on the wall dropped into a lived-in world, and you have to see how everything flows & connects through the subtleties of the supporting exposition.

(i.e. in ANH, it is not explained whether Darth Vader is a monster, a human, a robot, etc. but we can infer via his breathing that there's a man in that suit).

Well, AotC is the foggy, topsy-turvy episode. As demonstrated by the opening sequence.

It seems they did, that was the problem - and the very reason why Palpatine "wanted" to hold off the vote and press on with the negotiations. (Until Kenobi's alarming intel comes in).

Yep, obviously the Senate sees the extent of the Separatist threat now, and agree an army is needed... but the details of everything that entails and which specific military actions to take would be a whole other ball of wax which would in turn tie the Senate up. They see there is no time for that, and in trust & deference, hand these other matters over to Palpatine and his people to efficiently handle with no delays.

One example: Organa says the Senate would never approve the use of Clones in time, this being an ethical issue. Another; should a deployment be sent to Geonosis, how big, when, what should be the objective, etc.?

Or snowed by Palpatine the master manipulator, who knows how to take advantage of ubiquitous human frailties.

We can infer that through things like him remaining Chancellor after his term expired, being neutral on the bill, pushing for peace (nobody wants war, at the time the bill was for security).

 

Obviously those who actually saw the movie are minority here.
What is the problem of the Republic in that moment? Remember, there are other scenes in AOTC apart from this one and, surprise!!! they are connected to it.
When Padme and Anakin discuss the political system Anakin is explaining that the system doesn't work and what would work would be the politicians should sit, discuss what is good and then do it. Padme explains that this is the essence of the system, but people don't always agree (biggest problem of democracy in real life also) Well, then they should be made to by someone wise (this is what theoretically the Empire does, doesn't it). So this problem of the endless debates is again showed in the Chancellor's office where there are some of the Senators who learn from Obi Wan's transmission that:
1. The Separatists are moving to make the Republic accept what they want as they had secured a huge army
2. There is a way for the Republic to resist as there is a clone Army waiting for it .
So one of the Senators said: the debate is over (I.e. we are in danger already). We need the clone army.
And what is the so called debate? Remember the opening crawl? The Military Creation Act that Padme is against it. So it is crucial moment to decide if they should accept the clones or not.
Then Bail Organa said: unfortunately the debate is not over. The Senate wouldn't vote in favor of the Army IF the Separatists don't attack (not never but if there is a threat). So, the Senate obviously cannot handle a crisis exactly for the endless debates. That's why Mass Ameda said: it is a crisis and so on. The Emergency powers give the Chancellor power to take some decisions alone, skipping the endless debates and at least presumably resolving the crisis. So is not the Army itself that is on the core of this but to resolving a crisis which threats the Republic. And here is the moment when the poor Jar Jar falls into Palpatine's trap. As @Subtext said Palpatine is brilliant manipulator who uses not people weaknesses, he uses people strengths against them. one of Jar Jar strong qualities is his faith and loyality to his friends. He feels like he is acting in Amidala's favor as she is brave enough to propose something radical to save the Republic as she proposed something radical that saved Naboo once. And why poor Jar Jar is chosen for the dirty job to do something that we all know that Amidala would never propose deliberately? Well, his naivety works here. The trap is very clever: they never said a word more to Jar Jar or to anyone because if they did, at least Bail would ask : are you sure that Padme would really accept this. Is Jar Jar who presumably took the initiative but I think Palpatine already knew what would happen.
Now, there is more. Obviously Bail Organa is not a big fan of the Army and the war. On the other side, in this moment his fraction (of pacifists) in the Senate couldn't do much as the emergency powers are voted in favor and the Chancellor said that he would create the Army as protection (kind of) against the Separatists. Bail is really desperate when the war really began, i.e. after the battle of Geonosis maybe because he hoped that all this would be temporary crisis. But his gesture on the balcony in front of the Army reveals what Yoda already said with words: the debate is really over as the war really began.

 

That's unnecessary.

 

I think we are reading too much into it

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

^ Kind of our thing.

• Who is gonna fund this army
•• HOW are they gonna fund it? More taxes? What if some planets don’t like that idea? Oh, and how are we gonna pay the soldiers? I doubt they’d want to go die fighting droids free of charge.

• How much supply and manpower do we need, and defer to first point about how they’re gonna get money for this

• Logistics of transporting said supplies and manpower

• The time it’ll take to conscript and train recruits to this army. Far as I know, they don’t HAVE a grand Republican army so, at least for the first few months/year, they’d be conscripting all able-bodied fighters from all the planets. They might even need to institute a draft if it’s THAT desperate.

It costs to wage war. It’s not as simple as getting a bunch of people, putting weapons in their hands and saying, “OK, see those guys? They’re the enemy. Kill them.”

 

Maintaining an army requires a lot of logistical work. Since they haven't had one before, none of those logistics have been worked out already. I listed some examples earlier but a couple of major questions would be:
1) Is having a standing army the new normal for the Republic or are we disbanding it when the war is over?
2) Is it only for self-defence or are we allowed to make a pre-emptive strike?

It's common sense. The Senate's squabbling and relatively slow response time even in the face of a crisis is definitely established in the movies. Large groups of people not all agreeing on every aspect of complicated issues is how reality works. Dooku telling the Seperatists they can make whatever demands they want because they already have an army and the Republic doesn't is in the movie. "The Senate will never approve the army in time" is in the movie. "Palpatine could fix this if he was granted emergency powers" is in the movie.

Well he's been in power for a decade so clearly he has more than 50% support in the senate. We're never told he's unpopular so I don't see any reason to believe his tenure has been contentious up to this point. We've seen what happens to Chancellors the Senate doesn't have faith in.

 

If Jar Jar was weak minded, what does that say about the other senators and representatives of the Galactic Senate?

The ironic thing is that after becoming a prisoner of the Separatists, Padmé wholeheartedly supported the war against them. At least two or three years would pass before she would reverse her opinion.

 

Slow response time? In TPM the senate is able to remove a sitting Chancellor and hold a vote for a new one within two days.

 

That was a radical move born out of frustration with Valorum's ineffectiveness. A member planet was literally the victim of a military conquest by another member of the Republic but the central government wasn't able to do anything about it and they had to free themselves without any help. If you can't count on the other members to have your back when push actually comes to shove, why even form a Republic at all? But the thing is Valorum was a good guy who totally wanted to help, it was the system that was the problem, and that hasn't changed. Palpatine was elected to be "a strong Chancellor" in response to this. Valorum was paralyzed by Senatorial procedure. By giving Palpatine emergency powers he was able to bypass that. Now of course, the reason Chancellor's don't just automatically have those powers in the first place and the Senate exists is because you risk a corrupt, power hungry Chancellor abusing his authority to suppress dissent and become a dictator, but I'm sure Palpatine would never do something like that so we can trust him just this once. He'll definitely give the powers up willingly as soon as those stupid Seperatists are dealt with and everything will go back to normal.

 

This is the issue I have with the PT. We're told things by characters, but then shown the exact opposite. We're told the senate is bloated and ineffectual. Yet every time the senate has to decide on something, they seem to do it almost immediately. Even in TPM when Padme gets frustrated, she has no reason to be other than the story needs her to be. Valorum flat out asks her if she can provide proof of her accusations and instead of saying, "Yeah, I can get the testimony of two Jedi PLUS my ship got shot full of holes when I had to escape from Naboo" she just stands there defeated. Then Valorum even tells her he is going to send people to Naboo to get to the truth of all this and even though he just gave her a solution, she just yells out about how weak he is and demands a new Chancellor be voted in. It makes no sense internally, but it's what Lucas needs to happen so it happens.

 

The problem with the Jedi's testimony from a legal standpoint is that Valorum never actually had the authority to dispatch them in the first place. That was him trying to do the right thing even if he had to bypass the official procedures. That's why the Trade Federation can attempt to kill them and deny ever seeing them. The Chancellor can't say "Hey, what happened to my ambassadors?" because on the record he was never supposed to have any Jedi Ambassadors in the first place. It was a covert operation. The ship damage doesn't prove anything, especially since everyone already knows about the blockade and it's totally legal, which is a bit of an indictment on the Republic in and of itself. If you watched the movie and think the investigative committee is a good solution to the problem then there's probably nothing I can say that's going to convince you otherwise but regardless it was communicated clearly enough for me.