Books The Official Darth Plagueis Discussion Thread (Spoilers Allowed)

Ok, but that is your opinion that the entirety of current(post 2014/2015) FFG is not canon, but that is another matter as I do not share that opinion and nor does the Wook a. I have not seen Lucasfilm take such a hardline stance either. Most Star Wars material released after April 25, 2014(with some exceptions)is composed in collaboration with the Lucasfilm Story Group. Thus making it part of the "New Canon." While FFG's supplements contain elements of both Canon and Legends, since its game based, the Wookiepedia is pretty clear as to why its listed as Canon and Legends in their coverage:


The Wookiepedia :

"The official canon status of Star Wars roleplaying and gaming material published by Fantasy Flight Games has not been publicly determined by the Lucasfilm Story Group. In the absence of any such declaration, Wookieepedia has approved an internal system for documenting this information. The following page lists the full catalogue of Star Wars games published by Fantasy Flight Games, designating each item according to either the Canon or Legends continuity for the purposes of Wookieepedia article coverage."

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Wookieepedia:Canon_policy/Fantasy_Flight_Games

As for Lucasfilm, Matt Martin for example never stated that FFG was not canon or was exactly canon, however he did state unequivocally that any FFG titled released in recent years(2014/15 to present) is probably about as close to canon as you could get. So it boils down to personal choice , interpretation and opinion of the fan and all of that kinda thing. But the Wook is still the best fan resource, its even used by Lucasfilm employees for years for research and references.

 

What exactly did that FFG book say about Plagueis? I do find it odd that they’d re-confirm his species in such a low-key way.

 

At first I despised Tor Valum cause we got enough species with long lifespans and 7000 years and going is problematic and odd. But then I tried to salvage the idea and make it better and it grew on me.

Tor Valum is indeed 7000 years old, but his body is not. If bodyhopping is a thing and he can teach it he sure can use it! So we got a master at the art of staying alive, transferring himself into new bodies on a regular basis and had been around since the foundation of the Sith LORDS. He probably was one of the early Sith Lords himself. Did he once have dreams of grandeur and rule but for whatever reason settle for teaching only later on for that was safer to stay alive than be hunted and fought? Why is he so reluctant to become anything more like other Sith want? And then I found out why! The answer is right in the concept art of Tor Valum turning into the Oracle and parasite. He got trapped. One of his bodyhops ended in a species that seemed mobile but would undergo a life stage where it gets immobile (much like Neti!) and that is the trap. Not knowing this he had to comply with nature and become an immobile parasite unable to grow beyond his teaching others who came to him but were careful enough to not let him posess them. Hence other Sith using him but not freeing him onwards. At best they get a nice teacher for their apprentices, at worst their apprentice becomes a 7000 year old Sith Master worthy to challenge them.

And with this version of Tor Valum I could live! But now I got Neti Jedi tree vibes and wonder if that is the idea his character originated from in the first place, a dark side version of Veitch's Odd Bnar lorekeeper.

see my above reply to @Jid123Sheeve

In a way Snoke and Tor Valum as Masters of Sith and not Sith themselves reminds me of the Sith beginnings of Lords of the Sith vs. the Sith species subjugated by them. Maybe there are two lineages... one that mingled with the Red Sith and became from Lords of the Sith to the Sith themselves. The other stayed pure and free of Sith blood and never would dare to call themselves Sith but Masters or Lords of them only. And subjugating more than the Sith species they were Masters of the universe and Lords of the galaxy more than anything named Sith. In that way Snoke and Tor Valum are more powerful and scary than the Sith Lords that mingled with their lesser subjugated species of old. The Sith Eternal thus are the rare and powerful TRUE (Sith) Lords whereas the Dark Lords of the Sith are the other lineage that while no more having Red Sith blood, originated in the Red Sith lineage.

Kinda a Lords of the Sith vs Sith Lords scenario with no wonder Palpatine feared the call from the Unknown Regions and the "other" "true" Lords and Masters of the Sith Eternal.

 

I can't remember why, but I recently looked into the interviews Luceno gave back in the early 2010s regarding Plagueis's species. I had remembered incorrectly, and Lucas did indeed specify that in his mind, at that time, Plagueis was a Muun. It was not prompted by Luceno. Luceno also said that he believed Lucas's decision was primarily visual, based on concept art developed for the prequels that evoked the imagery that he wanted for Plagueis back then. The art piece shared by Pablo Hidalgo a few years ago on Twitter, which appears in the last page or so, is likely among the pieces that Lucas sent Luceno, even if that one was technically not of a Muun. So there were likely other art pieces that also look like that one (perhaps developed for the Separatists while in Mustafar?) which Lucas liked for the character.

 

Wasn't Plagueis gonna be a Nemodian at some point...I even remember that in earlier version of Force Unleashed Plagueis was gonna play a part in earlier drafts. In fact isn't that were the Nemodian stuff comes from ?

 

@Jid123Sheeve
According to Pablo Hidalgo, Lucas selected the concept art below as a starting point for the design he thought the publishing group could use for the character:



In an interview, James Luceno said that he originally asked Lucas whether there was any reason Plagueis couldn’t be nonhuman. Lucas responded that Plagueis should be a Muun and sent Luceno various concept art pieces from the prequels to illustrate what he had in mind. It’s likely the art piece above, concept art of a Neimodian from Episode III, was among them.

Luceno said Lucas’s choice was likely based on the visual impression he got from the art and not so much on the content associated with it. I’m guessing Lucas liked this overall look, but then also liked other aspects of how Muuns looked like in concept art.

There aren’t too many concept art pieces of Muuns out there, but it seems the decision was based on the impression they gave, rather than him looking at San Hill, for example, and picturing a Sith version of that. So in terms of Plagueis’s look, what we have is a tall, skeletally thin alien with a heavy robe and some kind of breathing apparatus.

Oh, and because it used to be a popular topic, I want to mention that Plagueis probably did have a nose, since Luceno mentions that in the book and some art pieces, and most Muun depictions after AOTC, give them those squished noses seen most clearly in TCW. There was a Galaxy’s Edge comic recently that had what I think is the best “realistic” portrayal of that Muun look:



This type of depiction makes them look more like elongated, human-like aliens, and like a less random choice than “evil San Hill” (which was my first impression way back when). I think it was @darklordoftech who mentioned Ra’s alien form from the original Stargate as a possibly similar look, and I agree that something like that is probably close to the overall imagery of an ancient and elegant alien that may have drawn Lucas to make him a Muun.

 

@Sauron_18

Thank you for the clarification

Some of this reminds of the old days back when people thought Snoke was Plagueis ...lol

Wonder if they will give him a different design if they ever canonize him or expand on his current canon form

 

Even San Hill has a nose occasionally.

 

I wonder too. I’m guessing they might not be planning on doing much with the character for a while, possibly out of respect for Luceno’s novel, which had not been out long prior to the Disney purchase, and because it was very well received. If anything he might appear peripherally in other works, and likely in a way that leaves it ambiguous just how much of the novel is still canon.

 

I could see that....I defiantly think a lot of the more recent novels (Not Post Endor mind you ;p) but things like Plagueis are gonna live in this vague not canon/canon where yeah, the book can't TECHINALLY be Canon because it references things that aren't canon anymore but the broad strokes are still canon more or less and it can easily fit in the timeline.

 

I agree. And I do appreciate that. After waiting for years, it would suck for the novel to stop being canon only a few years later. And its being in an in-between state means fans have an idea of the character, but also lots of room for imagining whatever they wish.

Having said that, part of what I’d wanted for the new canon was a story closer to what Lucas intended, modulated of course by the people actually doing the work. But essentially a canon made with insider knowledge, which the old EU only rarely had, and even then, only bits and pieces. And while Lucas was involved in some aspects of the Plagueis novel, it was really quite minimal. But I doubt he’d come up with any story ideas regarding the character, beyond the basics.

Yet there are related story ideas that we know Lucas developed in depth but never explored—such as the origin and fall of the Sith, or anything to do with midichlorians and the Whills—and which I’d love to learn more about in a canon Plagueis story. So though I loved Luceno’s book, I’m also very curious about who Plagueis was to Lucas.

 

@Sauron_18

You might get that...I'm gonna be honest but I have the minority opinion that NuCanon has honestly tried to be more closer to a lot of what Lucas was going for than fans will give credit for. Granted that's more a personal opinion of mine but that's just the general vibe I get.

 

o hey guyz watchya doing ya talkin about Muuns I see hi omgz guyz awsome

Random thoughts on this conversation:

1) Dermot Power did the original concept art for San Hill, but he didn't finalize the face. There was an article about this in an Insider magazine (#66 I think? The one with the original TCW's Muunilinst on the cover, which is why it is dear to me) and also on his website: https://dermotpower.com/
There were different concepts of his face because he was a hodgepodge of different people's art. I remember one in particular that was on an old article on the official SW website that had more or less his face as a b&w sketch by somebody (it was in one of those gallery features with different concept art), but it wasn't Power. That concept looked like it was drawing more from the long-face look of the TPM Neimoidian concept art (eventually used for the Geonosians).

I say this because if Lucas had used concept art of San Hill for the Plagueis idea, he wasn't originally one thing, but a combination of different artists' drafts for miscellaneous separatist characters. I suspect Lucas had an idea that Plagueis was part of this amalgamation of long-faced concept art PT alien characters.

I'm reminded of the behind-the-scenes webdocs they did for ROTS with Lucas in the concept art room, when he'd ask to mix and match things from different designs. Maybe Lucas said "Muun" to Luceno (and I do recall Luceno saying that long ago), but his idea of whatever a Muun is is probably a lot more fluid than Luceno's encyclopedic brain can handle. At least, that's how I've understood the "Muun"/Plagueis story all these years. Lucas's Geomuunodian.

2) San Hill has a nose in AOTC if you watch it closely. Not. That. I've. Done. That.

 

@Jid123Sheeve

I completely agree with you about the new canon. I think they generally try to steer closer to Lucas’s vision, partially through his proteges, but also by having access to info EU authors didn’t. There have been some messy works that made me doubt this (i.e., TROS), but overall I do think that’s what they’re trying to do.

@Barriss_Coffee

So glad to hear your input on this! And that’s very interesting, and sounds very much like the kind of thing Lucas would do. I didn’t know the original concept behind San Hill was a hodgepodge, but that does answer the mystery of the nose.

Was the other concept art that you mentioned this piece by Iain McCaig from the official website’s old hyperspace content?



McCaig also made this other concept piece, published in the Dressing the Galaxy costumes book, that looks very much like the kind of character Plagueis appeared as in Luceno’s book:



McCaig is, truth be told, one of the main influences for all things Sith. So maybe it’s also a McCaig thing that influenced Lucas’s choice, since that art piece Hidalgo posted is also by him. (Note: That art piece also seemed to have inspired the TCW character Embo, and the Kyuzo species in general.)

Also, I could never see San Hill’s nose in Ep2! I did get the impression it was slightly more prominent in ROTS, but his main shot there was a profile shot, so it makes sense.

 

@Sauron_18

Disagree slightly with TROS causing any questions on that. It still leads to the same conclusions that Lucas would have gone with, now if your thinking about Palpatine returning I mean sure Lucas said in his version that he considers brining Palpatine dead but honestly I could have seen George doing a 180 and brining him back. But that's more a plot point while the thematic point still remains

Female heroine is the Skywalker, Leia reaches out to antagonist, passing the torch etc etc.

and I think that's the big difference is that the Thematic elements that Lucas wanted for the Sequel Trilogy remain very much in tact...It's just the execution that I think is vastly different.

I think someone put it best that I think Lucas trilogy may have been Last Jedi across the board while TFA and TROS wanted to go with something more familiar and palatable, TFA especially with the Star Wars Remix approach.

But I do agree on the whole yes, NuCanon does have more of Lucas's overall tone/flare and just style due to the fact many of the people working on it are his Protoge's and just people who probably have a closer relationship to Lucas on the whole.

Although if anything I think the current Cadre of writers are trying their best to bridge the aspects people like in Legends (Ie Thrawn in Rebels) with Lucas's overall vision. Heck the Mandalorian i think is a good blend of Lucas's TCW Mando's and the Mando's from the Legends stuff.


Also on the whole Munn thing I find it funny people talking about Plagueis not having a nose, since everyone loves putting Voldemort images with Plagueis and just extending his head. So I just think it's funny the whole no nose thing that is very similar to how Voldemort in Harry Potter appears was a factor.

I just think it's funny.

 

Oh no, it wasn’t the overall plot of TROS that made me feel like things got a bit confusing. It’s more the way certain things fit together, especially the movie with expanded media, like Palpatine’s son being a strandcast (which is technically fine, but it didn’t seem like the movie itself suggested that) or the issues with Poe’s background (which I honestly don’t pay much attention to, but I get why some found upsetting). So it wasn’t so much how the plot developed, which I do agree probably fit the broad strokes of Lucas’s own vision, but rather in terms of how coherent the storytelling was among different media.

 

Oh okay that makes more sense...Especially the Poe thing which is probably Abrams being like "Well I wanted to do my Han Solo 2.0 character and darn I'm gonna do it"

Sorry for the misunderstanding

Back to Plagueis

You mentioned before how if NuCanon does expand on him you'd be interested in something new and maybe more in line with George Lucas...However I am curious given that the writers of Star Wars while sticking mostly with Lucas DO tend to be fans of the Expanded Universe (Not all but some obviously) would want to almost bridge the divide and while stick to Plagueis also find ways to bring elements from the Luceno book which among the Star Wars community IS popular.

Unlike Lucas I like to think writers are a bit more EU savy and instead of going for the "I like the design but I wanna do my own character" Lucas approach they do like what the EU had to say on some things and would stick with it.

Sorta how Mandalorian is sorta bridging the divide between Lucas Mando's and EU Mando's....If that make sense

 

Yeah, I do appreciate a tipping of the hat to the old EU, though I think part of the fun of a reset is that you get to see totally new stories or interpretations.

Though Disney has thus far been very tightly wound about letting creators explore the universe, with a lot of things tied down by the movies. Maybe that’ll change now that the movies are over.

High Republic seems like a good omen, though its creators are still characteristically very silent about anything related to it right now. But I suppose the industry, like many others, is in a fragile state at the moment.

But if Lucasfilm & Publishing go back to taking their time with things, and not rushing to release content along with rushed movies, I think we’ll probably get more well developed and well researched content that manages to explore new things.

So maybe we will get a new Plagueis sometime in the future! One who is maybe still a Muun, but perhaps no longer Hego Damask. The fact that DOTF was interested in shedding some light into Plagueis is promising. I hope any story we eventually get ties to those ideas Lucas was interested in exploring further related to midi-chlorians and Whills, since that was this Sith Lord’s specialty.

 

Sir, these are EXACTLY the images I was thinking of! I haven't seen the first one since Hyperspace was a thing! Seriously, you've got a great memory!

It's really interesting to see how pieces of the concept art gets divided up to different characters and objects for the final version.

 

I wonder why Plagueis (the novel) was cancelled and then un-cancelled. At the time of the cancellation, Sue Rostoni said, “We decided that this was not the right time to delve into Palpatine's backstory and Plagueis's beginnings.” Why was that an issue in 2007 but not in 2010?

 

Underworld, apparently.

 

Makes me wonder why some concepts from Underworld about his fall were not used in Plagueis, like a certain woman that would have been involved in his backstory from Underworld.

 

I’d bet Luceno wasn’t informed of plans for Underworld. After all, did Kycina Opress show up in Son of Dathomir? Also keep in mind that the Underworld Palpatine woman thing came from a very indirect source and that Underworld was to be about “Force-ignorant” characters.

 

There is no Kycina Opress. You're trying to graft the name of Maul's brother (which isn't necessarily his surname, and even if it was, that wouldn't imply that anyone else had the same surname - Feral, introduced in the same episode, is not called Feral Opress, after all) onto a character that isn't even really in continuity with Maul's brother. (Obviously, because TCW is also Legends, we/Wookieepedia's Legends page one-canon it and say that Kycina is Savage Opress's mother, but I the intention of TCW is that Mother Talzin is the brother of Maul and Savage Opress, and possibly Feral as well.)

 

Luceno worked very closely with Lucas on the book, so with Lucas having come up with the Underworld bits its weird he did omitt them for Luceno unless he preserved them for something else.

Well the spanish/french only released book "The Dark Side" by Tricia Biggar details the Nightsisters and Talzin in unique detail and mentions that they can have offspring between two females. So there is nothing against Maul and others having two mothers biologically. However that works and how much magick is involved, do not ask me, but the book claimed that it is possible and is canon!