The Mandalorian Ahsoka Grand Admiral Thrawn

his motivations wont be bring back Palps. thatd be absolutely terrible and people wouldnt care. no one really wants to know how Palpatine got brought back because there wont be a good reason. They just didn't know what else to do in Ep 9.

 

First off Lars Mikkelson doesn't look much like any depiction of Thrawn. It's not just matching that look. Elements in visual storytelling including characters often need to convey information just by looking at them. This is probably more true of Star Wars than any other franchise. In it's most extreme characters Maul, Grievous, Vader and Palpatine instantly look evil, but it can be more subtle. A character who is old can convey the impression they're wise. A beard certainly helps with that. Qui-gonn, Obi wan, Yoda, Dooku.
Lars Mikkelsons features seem to round and soft for a villain like Thrawn.

It is a bit hard to describe, but I get a more old and established villain vibe like Tarkin from Mikkelson, than I get the up and coming genius general villain vibe that you need for Thrawn.


I'm not saying Lars would be a terrible choice for Thrawn. He just isn't my first choice for the character.

I think you need someone with a more square and angular face with a strong jaw and sharp features. They lean more on the villainous side, but not totally so. You need someone who comes off as young enough they aren't pass their prime, but old enough they have the experience to do what they're doing. Actors like Jason Isaacs, Mark Strong and Michael Fassbender fit this profile pretty well in my opinion.

 

I think LFL has plenty of leeway in terms of facial structure when it comes to Thrawn given his many, many depictions. You have to remember that Rebels is highly stylized and not meant to reflect a real-life depiction. My favorite happens to be long-faced Thrawn from the H2E comics. I think he looks more alien in those.

 

But Thrawn would not be an “up and coming genius General” anymore during the timeline of the Mandalorian and the Ahsoka show, which is over a decade after his appearance in Rebels. In this timeline, he would indeed be an older, more established, more wizened villain. Rendering Mikkelsen a very appropriate choice.

 

When I say up and coming I don't mean in a real in-universe sense as an officer, but a story sense as a "Villain". Thrawn is a seasoned commander in Rebels as well. Thrawn is going to play the underdog villain here. He's the sort of villain the audience kind of roots for as he outwits the heroes and builds up his strength until it crescendos into his coup de grace and the heroes are brought to crisis point.

 

I've been thinking too much about Thrawn lately. Last night I had a dream that I was playing Thrawn.

Here are my top choices. I'm considering the look, voice (will they be able to recreate it), acting style (can they portray an intelligent, menacing villain), and acting talent (being able to carry the new main Star Wars villain for years).

Definitely
Lars Mikkelsen
Michael Fassbender
Benedict Cumberbatch
Antony Starr
Viggo Mortensen

Possibly
Jason Isaacs
Mark Strong
Jon Hamm
Aidan Gillen
Christoph Waltz
Robert Downey Jr.

 

Who said that Thrawn will be played as an underdog villain in the show? We don’t know anything about the narrative thus far. And personally, I have no interest in kinda rooting for him, based on who we’ve seen him allied with in season 2 of the Mandalorian.

 

True we don't know the narrative, but considering the set up of the Galaxy is very similar to that of Heir to the Empire with a dominant New Republic ruling most of the Galaxy and Imperial Remnants scattered about it's not hard to believe he'll be playing the underdog like he did in the Thrawn Trilogy. It would be a nice break from the Empire vs Rebels dynamic we saw in the OT and ST.

I think the story where the heroes face off against him will be it's own TV, or movie series and will be a new version of the Thrawn Trilogy. If it's a show I a think a great name for it would be Heir to the Empire. Like how Game of Thrones is the name of the show despite the book series being called A Song of Ice and Fire.

You might not personally root for Thrawn, but some people do like the villains sometimes and root for them. Thrawn is definitely one of the easier villains to root for. He's certainly a bad guy and is utterly ruthless, but he doesn't come off as outright evil. He commits evil acts to get the desired result he wants with his ultimate goal bringing order to the Galaxy and serving the Empire. He's an ends justify the means kind of guy. If doing good gets him closer to his goals he'll do good. If doing evil is what is necessary he'll do evil.

Although what I meant more is people root for the bad guys, but in so much they want to see them do bad things and have their plans come to fruition before ultimately being beat by the good guys. There is all this set up for it, it is really satisfying to see their grand plan come to fruition. They build up the threat of the villain to a point it is really satisfying and impressive to finally see the heroes defeat them. I've seen plenty of comments of people happy when Thrawn finally smacked down the Rebels at Atollon after all his careful planning and set up to attack them. Palpatine's plan is considered by many ingenious and it's impressive to see it come to fruition and the Jedi wiped out. Then it's even more satisfying when he gets thrown down that pit in the Death Star.

 

I don’t care about those people that root for villains. Particularly fascist ones. Clearly, millions of people root for real-life villains too - actual fascists who paint themselves with false underdog colors - and they’re coming close to wrecking our society. No need to cater to their despicable perspectives.

That’s different than your other point about the desire for competent villains. I agree with that. But there’s no reason why an older, wiser, and more established competent villain like Thrawn, played by Mikkelsen, would be seen as not competent enough.

 

I wouldn't say he would be seen as not confident enough. I just think a different actor with a different look would fit that underdog role better. The reason I think Thrawn should be in the underdog role is because as a character he thrives in that condition. You want Thrawn to do incredibly smart things and succeed to build his threat and those incredibly smart things are way more impressive when the odds are stacked against him. This raises the stakes for our heroes because if this villain is this powerful and capable when he's at his weak point, what happens when he gains strength? What happens when he goes from only having a small fleet to having an Armada? When the villain does reach their height the stakes are enormous for our heroes. It's not impossible for an older character, or a Lars Mikkelson Thrawn to pull that off either. I just wouldn't put Mikkelson as one of my top choices for Thrawn. I will say this though. I might be wrong about Mikkelson and once with the make up on and playing the role he might fit the look much better than I think he will.

 

Calling Thrawn an underdog is a bit of a misrepresentation/misunderstanding, in my opinion.

 

How so? In the Thrawn Trilogy he often goes up against bigger enemy fleets, powerful enemy defenses and the Empire is greatly diminished with the New Republic the reigning government in the galaxy. His position sure seems that of an underdog. The first chapter of Heir to the Empire is about how he outwits and defeats a superior force of New Republic ships and fighters.

 

I don't know about the books, but the NR in canon doesn't seem to have much of a force, at least beyond the core worlds. And not paying much attention to the First Order suggests they hadn't faced any Imperial remnants beforehand.

 

He’s Grand Admiral of a group of space Nazi’s - he’s hardly “the little guy” that we’re all rooting for.

I think the closest we come to “underdog” status with Thrawn is the xenophobia/bigotry/discrimination he received when part of the Academy - even then he’s the beneficiary of nepotism of Palpatine, which kind of negates it to a degree...

I really enjoy the character! I personally find him very interesting and at times strangely compelling, but in no way, shape or form would I consider him an “underdog”

- any one that secretly wants the space Nazi’s to win has somewhat missed the point, in my opinion.

 

Hans Grueber. That's the kind if Thrawn I'd like to see.

 

I can honestly say I both agree and disagree. I feel he did have an 'underdog' status in the beginning of the Thrawn Trilogy. The New Republic had much larger resources and a vastly larger military. But, his tactical brilliance and obscure knowledge allowed him to very quickly build his forces until the New Republic ended up outmatched. They never set a 'timeline' of his original plan, but definitely mention that finding the Katana fleet enables them to shave something like years off of the plan. We get to watch him become a very real threat in 'real' time, which also adds to the sense of doom and foreboding for the New Republic, and the main cast of heroes from the OT.

I wouldn't say that I ever wanted him to win, but definitely as a reader came to respect his abilities. Never did I respect his plan or goals. And I definitely prefer Thrawn being depicted this way. I never cared for how Zahn started trying to make him a sympathetic character who just had a complicated morality; he should remain a villain, through and through. His belief in the necessity of order over freedom defined the character's evil. He's totally a fascist; and doubly scary for not being an idiot. He makes you truly wonder how the heroes can survive, much less beat him.

In the end, it's his belief in his own near omniscience that destroys him. He believes that he knows what his enemies are up to; and the literal Wild Kaarde of the smuggler's autonomous action plan against his forces is something his battle plan isn't ready for. His belief that the Noghri are too afraid and ignorant to be secretly opposing him leaves him vulnerable to the assassination that takes him out. The loose wrench of the combined forces of smugglers and New Republic stops his remaining forces from being able to modify his battle plan easily; and his death stops him from personally recalculating and salvaging a victory.

I really can't wait to see what they do with his character; he's definitely one of the best characters in all of literature to me. Not one of the best people, far from it, but I love that Zahn originally showed us that reasoned evil was a thing. Too many villains in all stories are depicted as just crazy, greedy, or stupid. He showed the insidiousness of an evil that could make you believe he was just, and the types of arguments it would make.

 

I think we need to step back and remember the Empire and the Galaxy Far Far Away is fictional and sometimes it's fun to side with and be the the bad guy. There are video games where you play the bad guy, or have the choice to play the bad guy and act like a bad guy. One of them is even a Star Wars MMO. There is a fun and catharsis sometimes to playing out dark fantasies. When I go around destroying all humans in the game Destroy All Humans! That doesn't mean I want to destroy the human race. I actually quite like it as a member. Sometimes watching bad dudes do bad things, especially if it's cool, can be fun. It's why anti-Heroes are so popular is because they straddle the line of being good and evil. One of the most popular shows of all time is about a guy selling drugs and committing heinous acts along the way. Another popular show is about a mob boss named Tony Soprano. So lets try not to let the conversation get out of hand here by calling someone a Nazi because they root for a fictional bad guy in a fictional universe to win sometimes.

If I recounted the events of World War II based purely on a military exploits of both sides and laid out the advantages in manpower and resources each side had from the beginning, Nazi Germany would look like the overwhelming underdog and it's kind of amazing and horrifying they got as far as they did. They first fought 2 great colonial powers that collectively had far more resources and manpower than they did and managed to knock one out early on and then took over most of Europe. This was after a humiliating defeat in a prior war and having to hastily rebuild their army that was dismantled after that war. Then they beat back a third and far larger great power on a completely different front all the way to their heartland and capital. With their enemies being heavily supplied by an even more powerful great power they couldn't even dream of touching who was gearing up to and ultimately did fight them as well. The Japanese leadership thought war with America was real crap shoot, but thought it the least bad option of all their bad options. They went to war with great power America, to gather the resources they needed to continue the war with great power China. Germany and the axis powers in general were the underdogs in that war almost the entire time. They were pretty much fated to lose from the start as well, especially when they foolishly added the USSR and the USA to their enemies lists. Just because someone is weak does not make them just(a concept I find a lot of people have trouble grasping in real life), or that people root for them, especially in real life. All the Islamic terrorists are overwhelmingly weak compared to their enemies yet we fear them for the damage they can cause. In fiction you often want the side of good to be the underdog, but it's sometimes fun to watch the bad guys hold that status like with Thrawn. In real life you always want the bad guys to be the complete and utter underdog since the stakes are real.

With that all out of the way in the story of the Thrawn Trilogy and what I'm assuming this Star Wars TV-verse is leading up to, ultimately you are rooting for the good guys to win. You ultimately do want them to win, but you know it's a work of fiction and sometimes its fun to watch the bad guys win, especially a bad guy who isn't totally evil, and/or pretty damn cool and Thrawn is both. Then it's even more satisfying when the good guys do manage to beat that bad guy.

 

I think it’s less that Thrawn is a scrappy underdog ala Rocky and more like Hannibal Lecter in Silence of the Lambs. You don’t sympathise with Hannibal in that film but when he manages to outsmart the FBI, the police etc you’re kind of in awe of his wicked intelligence and how formidable he is given his limited resources.

And I think Lars Mikkelsen can pull that off. Both the older, somewhat tired fascist leader operating at half strength (House of Cards in later seasons) and the mesmerising cerebral threat (Sherlock).

 

He's certainly going to show up in the "Mando-verse" but more likely on Ahsoka first. On the primary series I'd think it would take a while because that is probably going to spend a while on this new Mandalore story.

 

I think you nailed it on the head there. I guess the better way to put is not so much root for as being in anticipation of what this guy will do next. You know they'll do something astounding and cool and you can't wait to see it.

 

Agreed. It's easy enough to explain to audiences not familiar with the original source material, and a HUGE Easter Egg to everyone who is. I think alot of the pieces of the Thrawn Trilogy will be there: clones, crazy Force-user, Katana Fleet. Probably cloaking tech, as well.

I think the heroes cast will be the biggest change. I don't forsee the OT Big 3 being in on this. Thus the hunting of Leia for her children won't be, either. The Noghri are hit and miss; I loved the middle book, but those parts did drag some, and would be hard to include with the series' assumed 8 episode length. I'd say it's a safe bet that Mara Jade won't be in it; but we could see a smuggler type like Karrde.

 

Karrde should be easy enough to translate from Legends. You could probably keep his story wholesale.

 

My money is Boba Fett has taken up Karrde role right now.

 

Fett isn’t really an intelligence broker though. He’s a big deal in the underworld now, but that only crosses over into Karrde’s role in kind of broad vague way.