ST What really happens to Palpatine during his battle with Rey?

TROS seems to be playing by Dark Empire essence transfer rules, I believe the novelization stated that Palpatine jumped into a clone body that wasn't ready which is why he's been hanging on a coat rack for 30 years. I don't think there's anymore clones of him lying around. Lots of Snokes, though! In a jar! Get your Snokes!

 

Han Solo: "I've got a jar of Snokes! I've got a jar of Snokes!"

 

Snoke yokes, get your Snoke yokes here!

 

Sorry to go a little off topic, but the ending of ROTJ has such a powerful message. Since I saw the OT when I was very little, my reading of the Throne room scene was very simple: this is how a good person answers to evil. It was such an important lesson to me growing up... Mysteries of the Sith, I think, got this message really well, years later.

About Palpatine, I´ve always thought that lightning is not something you can turn on an off at will. Its a loop, and it requieres concentration both to summon and to stop it. I think Palpatine was so shocked (pardon the expression haha) not only at Vader moving against him, but also at the fact that he was withstanding all of his attacks, that he, as Emperor and Sith master... he just couldn't stop anymore. Even if he was hitting himself with it too, that was the only answer he had: anger, hatred... and fear. I thought TROS ending was a reference to that same idea...

 

Fair point, Palpatine is unable to turm off Force lightning when Vader picks him up, so why we fans hate it happening again with Rey is hypocritical. What is interesting is Dooku had sitect comtrol of Force Lightning and could stop at will. Perhaps its because he was a Jedi first before becoming a Sith.

 

Maybe Palpatine’s anger and need to win instead of backing down is stronger than his own survival instinct.

And with Vader, maybe Vader froze Palpatine, like Kylo did to Poe/Rey.

 

Oh, well, this is just how I see it anyway, but I imagine that its due to the concentration factor. I mean, the Emperor was quite in control before Vader´s attack, and also when attacking Mace. Not only the technique is implied, I think, to be quite difficult, but its also implied that Dooku could only summon a fraction of Palpatine´s, and was deciding when and where he was using it.

However when something completely unexpected happens (like being lift over your apprentice´s head and start getting the lightning yourself), then keeping focus is quite a different matter. Under that light, sure, I think Palpatine being unable to stop this apparently inferior Jedi (Rey) qualifies as a moment when all he could do is keep lightning. Same situation when Yoda begins to resist it in ROTS, or when Starkiller does basically what Rey did but barehanded, in TFU.

P.S.: I should watch the scene again, but actually, I think the Emperor did stop throwing lightning at Rey in the end. It was the immense power gathered in the lightsabers that kept discharging: first at Palpatine, then in that explosion, when he was gone.

 

“With the power of luminous beings, brother and sister Jedi press the Force around the dark nexus that is Emperor Palpatine...

With all his hatred funneled into the death storm, the malevolent genius is caught off guard by the invisible wave of life energy surging over him, separating him from his power—

Enveloped in light, cut off from his great rage, the Emperor finds himself unable to control the dark power he has unleashed—and the cataclysmic storm turns against its maker.”

That’s from Dark Empire, but the parallels are strong. The author adds more detail in his end notes, saying the Skywalkers opened the flood gates to the luminous power of the Force itself, which is the ultimate reality of the Jedi, and where those who die continue to exist.

Of course, the comic leaves the door open for Palpatine to return, which he does. Whereas in Rise of Skywalker the most likely meaning is that he was annihilated. And not just him, perhaps; maybe also all the spirits of the Sith. It was a cleansing of the Force itself.

 

I think it’s all the Jedi Spirits and being on Exegol that really allow Palpatine to be destroyed forever. Rey is both a conduit for the powers of the Spirit Jedi while also having her own strength and power supported and enhanced by the Spirit Jedi. Together they are able to repel Palpatine’s power back on him amplified. And then Palpatine’s ability to cheat death is also neutralized. So this time Palpatine is really gone.

To do this was such an effort Rey still lost her life in the process.

Now that it’s over, the larger ‘historic’ story of the 9 film Star Wars saga looks like it’s about the final conflict between the Jedi and Sith. It takes 60 years to play out and finally ends with the permanent destruction of the Sith.

In a sort of force power arms race The Phantom Menace begins with Sith ahead having discovered how to cheat death some time earlier. At that point the Jedi have no way to destroy the Sith. The Jedi have to learn about becoming Force Ghosts to counter this.

The Star Wars saga covers the time period when Jedi learn to retain their identities in the force after death. Qui-Gon starts this behind the scenes in the Prequels. The original trilogy have Obi-Wan and Yoda successfully complete the process to live on after death. Then the Sequel Trilogy has the Jedi Spirits take the conflict to its conclusion in the lair of the Sith.

We don’t know much about how far back the Sith power goes, but it seems the Jedi did kill the ‘last’ Sith unaware of the ability to cheat physical death. I think the Jedi Spirits are needed to block that power. And there seems to be something special going on at Exegol with the Force. That world and it’s power may be required for the Sith to cheat death.

 

In the originals, Kenobi's ghost told Luke "If you choose to face Vader, you must do so alone. I cannot interfere." So how come in RoS now ghosts can interfere? Seems inconsistent to me. I wish the writers had put more thought into making the sequels more consistent and more interesting.

 

Consistency in the ST? As Obi Wan would say "good luck."

 

Obi-Wan did interfere when Luke destroyed the the Death Star. There is precedent for both.

 

If that's so, why did he later tell Luke he could not interfere? Also, whispering "use the Force" doesn't seem like much interference, at all.

 

Agreed Obi Wan instructed Luke to use the Force. He did not guide the x wing shot or knock Vader off course. Realize we're splitting hairs here.

 

Because when Luke went off to face Vader in ESB, he was going against the teaching of Yoda and Obi-Wan. If Obi-Wan helps Luke, he's basically enabling Luke, much as he had done with Anakin in the prequels. Obi-Wan learned his lesson with Anakin, and wasn't going to make the same mistake with Luke.

Later in ROTJ, Luke is on his path of the "Jedi Trials" to become a knight, which must be done alone.

 

If Luke used his targeting computer and missed we have a totally different Star Wars. Obi-Wan’s words changed the course of galactic history. A nudge like that in Cloud City would be very helpful.

The Force Spirits in The Rise of Skywalker didn’t hold the light sabers or shoot lightening either. They support Rey and seem to work through her.

It’s also possible the abilities of the Force ghosts is heightened on Exegol. On the Clone Wars we learn Qui-Gon didn’t complete his Force Ghost training and could not appear as a physical manifestation. In fact he could barely contact Yoda with speech. But in special locations strong in the Force Qui-Gon’s voice could get through. On Degobah Qui-Gon could speak freely and manifest himself as as a series of glowing spheres of light.

On Mortis - a sort of Force realm outside the regular universe - Qui-Gon was able physically manifest himself as a Force Ghost to Obi-Wan and Anakin.

It’s likely special Force properties on Exegol both helped the Sith ability to cheat death and allowed the Jedi Spirits to manifest in a much more powerful way.

With out those special properties, if the fight happened on a regular world the Jedi Spirits couldn’t have assisted Rey like they did and Palpatine couldn’t use Force Lightening to down an entire starfleet.

 

His spirit enters Rey, and ensures that the legacy of Palpatine will remain one of terror by taking on the name Skywalker instead because he's a crafty old Sith like that.

Great way to end the Palpatine Saga, all things considered.

 

Great point Sarge. Poor writing in the ST.

 

It's hard to hear because Kenobi kind of says this part quickly under his breath, but the line is actually: "If you choose to face Vader, you must do so alone. Until the writers change it, I cannot interfere." It also helps to have captions on when you watch it.

 

Interesting to note that the original drafts of ROTJ DID have the Force Ghosts of Yoda and Obi-Wan helping out physically in the confrontation with The Emperor. Lucas nixed the idea because he felt that it lessened the danger that Luke was in.

 

I'm not convinced that the voices you heard were what we've come to understand as force ghosts...
More than anything else, it reminded me of the voices echoing the past, present and future that Ezra heard when he enters the world between worlds in Rebels.

 

The film clearly states that all the Jedi that ever lived lived in Rey. Which means their energy and consciousness were inside her and powering her up.

Every Jedi who ever lived, lives in you,” says Qui-Gon Jinn

We stand by you Rey- says Qui-Gon

Actually most of the voices were known Force ghosts(Luke, Anakin, Yoda, Kenobi and Jinn) or in some way and some form interacted with the living after being dead(Kanan/Caleb and Luminara from Rebels). While Ahsoka whether she became one with the Force or not by the time of this film, the fact is her powers are partially from The Daughter of Mortis, so who knows with her.

On top of that, all the Jedi that die go to a sort of heaven, called the Netherworld and become one with the Force. So their life energy and consciousness appears to become sorta like a Borg collective kinda thing to some extent.

The early drafts of ROTJ are not canon. What can be said is that a similar idea was carried over to Rey Palpatine but it became more spiritual and invisible, basically more suggestive than outright seen. The Force ghosts in the early versions of ROTJ scripts made them out to be more like their physical bodies slipped into another dimension called the Netherworld. Since they are all able to come back at the end as flesh and blood but still old men. It sounded more like Talzin's ability than a Jedi in canon past or present. Anyway its basically Yoda and Kenobi distracting The Emperor and Vader. The Emperor even says they have no power over him in the physical world. Yoda also states there was many Force ghosts with a line of dialogue. Then the ghosts partially are able to protect Luke from some of the Force lightning by shielding him with their ghostly energy selves, but its only partial insulation against the attack and it soon evaporates as the stronger and more intense the lightning became. Which basically means Force ghosts are vulnerable to Sith Force lightning.

 

I dunno, that's a very literal interpretation - until proven otherwise my head canon is that there's something bigger and more mystical at play than just your bog standard force ghosting...

I took those comments to mean that "all the Jedi" live within Rey in the same way that members of our families in the real world live within us - collective shared experience leading to the moment in time that we are experiencing.
Obviously it was jazzed up with some force foolery too - but yeah, I'm not sure they literally live within her...

I've visions of Ahsoka on the astral plane/world between worlds/whatever they're calling it - acting as a conduit for all the Jedi that have been, linking time-space-the force-etc.

 

I do wonder if Exegol is outside of the regular physical world like Mortis. Or maybe the Netherworld / Cosmic Force spills over into Exegol imbuing the world with more of the Force. Either way we get a place that imbues force users with heightened powers which also extends to Force ghosts.