Lit Books THE MORTIS DAGGER!

Okay, here is an interesting topic to discuss! In the Mortis trilogy the daughter tells Obi-Wan Kenobi, "he who wields this dagger can control my bother." Notice she doesn't say specifically the Chosen One. Her reference sounds like she means anyone who has it. Well, Obi-Wan had it first but apparently didn't know how to use it, so he tosses it to Anakin (maybe he can figure it out) but it gets intercepted by a brain washed Ahsoka who was forcibly converted to the dark side. Finally notice in the third episode that the Father actually Force pulls the dagger to himself (surely he knows how to use it) but instead of using it to control his son, he commits suicide with it instead.


Nearly 50 years later in the Fate of the Jedi series. The New Jedi Order and the Lost Tribe of the Sith are looking for the dagger in case Abeloth returns. Been too long, but do they think they need it to kill her?

I don't recall anywhere in the FOTJ if it mentions that "The Ones" (or are they The Celestials?) can't be killed by anything except the dagger. If it is stated somewhere, then that would be a discrepancy since Anakin kills the son with his lightsaber.

Can some one make sense of any of this?

 

Ooh, a Mortis thread! From what I remember, Anakin is only able to kill the Son after the Father has stabbed himself with the dagger. So there seems to be a powerful living connection between the Father and his children, at least at this point. It must not be permanent, since he fears his death will result in his children being set loose on the rest of the galaxy, not that it will hurt them.

I think that as long as the Father is alive, he is connected to his children, and whatever affects him also affects them. His death would free them, but so long as he is alive, that living connection means that what injures him also injures them.

So when Anakin stabbed the Son, he was in a weakened state due to the Father’s influence. I’m very curious to think back on this trilogy of stories knowing what we know now about what Lucas intended to do with the Whills. I think the symbiotic circle that existed in Mortis is central to answering why this happened. Basically, as soon as the Daughter was killed, the rest of the family was likely doomed as well.

Now when it comes to Abeloth, we might run into problems. Largely this is because she’s not part of the original story, and her connection to the Ones is a tenuous retcon. But let’s put the BTS details aside for a bit. We know that Abeloth functions as a sort of demi-god, and so it makes sense that whatever weapon could kill a full god would kill her too. Whether the Ones are actually similar to the Celestials might be irrelevant, then, because they both play the role of gods in the stories they appear in. So that weapon, being a god-killer, would also work on Abeloth.

Of course this does lead to a bigger question, which is where does Abeloth actually exist? It seems her primary existence is in a supernatural plane, with her physical existence being dependent on her possession of other living beings. Would the dagger be something that could be taken to her realm Beyond Shadows? Or would it always be limited to the physical world, as a way to send her back to her purgatorial realm again and again?

 

Any guesses how this direction would go in Canon and possible connections with Ashoka given her connection to Mortis.

 

Spoiler: Possible...

I believe the answer lies with why Ahsoka must find Ezra...

 

A Mortis topic? YAY!

1) Control
The important notion is indeed, as quoted "control" not "kill" the Son. The dagger is not a godkiller but can be used to force a God to submit to a mortals will thus. Kinda like a token, like the Darksaber for the Mandalorians means whoever wields it will lead all Mandalorians and can guide them. Again, the fight for the dagger is about "who can control the gods that control the universe/Force", that it can also be used to kill, or for suicide, is only a sideeffect, not the main purpose!

2) Sense
Why does nobody use it in the episodes to control him though? Well that is a very good question. I always assumed, the dagger works not for the Ones but only a mortal can control a god via the dagger. Obi Wan handing it off to Anakin is no big deal as he trusts Anakin and recognises him as a Chosen One, thus deferring to him easily as he senses and trusts the Force who is meant to have it. A Chosen One among the mortals born to control the gods? I like the mythology nods here!

3) Alter
The Father pulls the dagger to himself after tainted Ahsoka got it briefly. She too is a mortal and could use it but shouldn't. The Son needed a mortal to use it for he could not. So Ahsoka was his pawn to be able to control his Father and the other gods. The Father prevented that by taking the dagger. By committing suicide, the Father wanted to achieve 3 things: First of course if he is dead, nobody can control him via the dagger. Second, he kept his children trapped on Mortis and in an artificial balance. His death sets them free to roam the galaxy in a more volatile natural balance than the one he created. But as he previously said, he wanted Anakin to take his place and keep them in balance trapped on Mortis. So he hoped his death would convinve or force Anakin to take the role he no longer could then. And third, with the dagger unable to control him anymore, and the guests forced to either take his place or take out his children, he forced their hand, as it resulted in Anakin taking out the son after all. The Father, altered Fate one last time by setting this future in motion via his suicide forcing Anakin and the Son's hand to the outcome he wanted to achieve.

See my reply above for the first part, the second follows here about Abeloth and the books retcons of Mortis:

Kenobi, Ahsoka and Anakin barely had any memories about Mortis at the arcs end yet as Jedi books and guides talked about it, they must have regained their memories at a later point and filed a report that ended in the Archives that Luke later found! These records are incomplete though and a lot of mythology overshadows the actual arc events. While yes, the arc killed the gods, one may wonder if they had ever died before and returned given how long, how distant in the past and how cyclic all their tales are, especially when it comes to the backstory of Abeloths several escapes and retrapping in the most distant of pasts.

Well, the Jedi records never mentioned the function of the dagger in the books properly. All the Jedi recalled is "Oooh it could kill a god". It's true purpose to "control a god" is lost to time. So when the Jedi seek it to kill Abeloth who is as close to godhood as one ever came, closer even than Vitiate and the Sith who tried to achieve godhood, it is only likely that a rumored godkiller weapon is what they would seek out, not knowing what else they can do with it. Maybe they will learn it once they find it again. Maybe they can control Abeloth to imprison her again. It would be the Jedi Way instead of killing her off which is what a Sith might do, not a Jedi.

The Dagger is key to capture her more than to kill her.

How so?

I think, since canon does not have an Abeloth or Abeloth escape yet, we may face an altered scenario here. Palpatine tried to enter the WBW and Ahsoka and Ezra stopped him. Post Endor though, I think the search for Ezra will entail some Force shenangians, which may or may not bring back the WBW. But if the WBW is used in such a way, not Abeloth but a different threat to it is needed. I'd choose the reborn Emperor as such. Have them fight the Revan fight unbeknownst to the NR against the shadow that is growing in the Unknown Regions.

Ahsoka with her Force Mystic staff seems to be set up for a Gandalf scene of "You shall not pass!"... heck they could make her the new canon's version of NJO's Ganner-Gandalf last stand against Sith Eternal as she buys Ezra time to close the access to the WBW. She needs a good death one day after all.

Bonus points if the WBW is why he is "all the Sith" somehow then even in more than just a throwaway line sense. As per TROS VD the Sith Eternal were digging for an ancient access to the WBW on Exegol after all, calling it by many other names the book mentioned even.


It'd be fun if the Dagger of Mortis was already found by Palpatine and crafted into Occhi's Dagger from TROS. The dagger hunt stories for the movie and Legends always were nice paralells. It was crucial to find and take out Palpatine even if not stabbing him.

from Wookieepedia's page on Ochi's Dagger:

I think this translation of the Sith Runes from the dagger was not discussed on TFN yet as they are not 100% match to the known runes but some fans apparently found them close enough to find meaning behind them!

 

PS: A little addon correction: The Wookieepedia page I quoted sadly is in error. After checking myself and with friends fluent in Star Wars alphabets (Aurekfonts), the translated Sith runes are not ON the Sith Dagger at all. The dagger inscription resembles Sith runes but consists of different runes than the known alphabet we have and thus is untranslateable sadly. The translated inscription above is from the TROS VD's Sith language texts given in the book, unrelated to the dagger sadly.

Still it is nice to know. Hope wook corrects its mistake.

 

Saw this thread and thought it was a new book announcement . . . for Legends! About the Ten Knights (or whatever the **** they were called) who went looking for the dagger

 

Every time I see this thread now I'm gonna have to yell THE MORTIS DAGGER! to myself.

 

I have to wonder.....would the Mortis Dagger have been of any use against Darth Sidious? Or Darth Krayt? Or was it only effective against the Ones?

 

Well, if nothing else, it is still a dagger, so I can't imagine it would be much fun to have in your insides.

 

A series following the Quest for the Dagger of Mortis is needed.
Be interesting to see how they would have handled it.

 

I keep coming here thinking it's the new MACLUNKY!

 

I'm assuming it would have been the next Troy Denning thing. Probably all the new characters die horribly and then 80 year old Luke, Han and Leia have to go out and do everything. Oh and squibs.

 

I'd kind like if such a quest would require several other items to be obtained first. Like Ahsokas staff, a Force compass like Luke has, a Sith Wayfinder, etc. and only together can they pinpoint Mortis... much like Rebels had a Sith and Jedi Holocron combined reveal something special. But this should be more complicated than just two items now.

Mortis called Kenobi and Yoda found the Force World due to being guided there. If seeking such places on your own it should be more complicated if not summoned. Like requiring both, light and darkside(rs) to achieve it.

Ahsokas staff gives me Indiana Jones vibes like with the Staff of Ra to pinpoint a location on a map or model. A Force compass may lead to the right world via Force astrogation unguided by navcomputers oldschool style, a Sith Wayfinder may be needed to bypass dangers guarding the treshold. Then a puzzle like the WBW access mural solved to open the gateway. And that... should be just the beginning!

 

The father killing himself with the ethereal/ magical dagger only robbed The Son of his immortality was about its only known significance and purpose. Aside from that it had no real purpose, other than the magical weapon can apparently mortally kill them all, or if you kill The Father with it you can conventionally kill the children.

The sword is kept in Sith shaped triangular alter of green fire and forms ethereally like the Magiks of the Nightsisters. So there is likely a very close connection. In fact on Dathomir The Son and The Daughter are deities worshiped. So I believe you can find many hidden items and relations to Mortis and the World Between Worlds there. Plus we have the weird Zeffo stuff.

The Daughter is alive in the form of Morai. The Son can be heard in Rebels speaking. So are they really dead?! Where they even alive?! They seem like godly or demi-god deities and not really mortal beings in any conventional sense. Anakin could only control The Daughter and the Son under a specif condition set by The Father in the arena, and no dagger was involved.

The shape of the Mortis monolith looked like a Sith holocron, and no explanation was ever given. We know that from it came an over 2,000 year old Jed distress code transmission is sent from it to lure them there to investigate. The two Sith Lords spirits were also deleted from the story, Bane and Revan. For such octahedron vehicles we have to go the EU right now. On the show Mortis monolith just functions as like Sith temple in space, akin to like the Jedi Temple on Lothal, as it transport them into another dimension. The Sith and Jedi symbols are all over the place in the temples on Mortis.

Probably Duel of the Fates being some of the latest added Mortis mythology however non-canonical, but the dagger was not present like the rumors surrounding the movie. Its just the remains of temple from TCW, and the duel of fates is fought there for balance as just an holy ground-like arena. You cannot actually get power from Mortis. So the dagger stuff is of limited worth.

Ochi's dagger has some strange runes that seem to talk about the Sith'ari of Legends. Types like Dooku and Palpatine probably thought they were it, but they weren't. The Sith'ari being of was perfect balance of Light and Dark, the way things are supposed to be in the Force. It was also a being that would destroy the Sith and bring them back again purer and stronger than ever before as they way they were truly intended to be - not that what they became over the course of generations leading into the OT.

 

I recently rewatched the entire Mortis trilogy myself.

And it is intriguing how close a paralell the first episode is to Indiana Jones 3. You got an old Knight seeking someone worthy to replace himself, offering a test if he is the chosen one and ready to do so. The Father is the Knight, Indiana Jones is Anakin and his companions, daddy and Elsa are Ahsoka and Kenobi. Like with the Mortis trilogy, should the grail be removed from the temple, doom comes and ground starts to shake. The Father too mentions that the Chosen One should stay on Mortis and not release the problem of imbalance on to the galaxy aka his children to the galaxy. But Anakin ultimately leaves and Son and Daughter dead mean kinda the conflict got transfered to the galaxy and Anakin, like Indy, is a Chosen One but not the one to replace the Father. Down the line another would do that elsewhere. In Indy the Knight went on guarding the grail. In SW, after Anakin, his children and grandchildren became Chosen Ones too. And as per Lucas words, ultimately Leia brought balance. Replacing a Father with a Mother to keep the "children"/Forces in check?

That much for the Indiana Jones paralells to Mortis! There though is more in the trilogy I noticed during the rewatch that should get some discussion:

When in the second or third episode the Father visits the Daughters grave we see a landscape with burrial hills and above each a floating doublepyramid crystal glowing bright. There are many graves and they count way over 20! Are these graves of other Celestials? Gods? Chosen Ones? Chosen Ones that failed the test? Other children or relatives? The Mother?

The Father and Daughter also talk about rules by which the Force/Universe works and that those can be changed once. That the Father put some of those in place and they are the reason Daughter and Son cannot do everything they want or use the dagger themselves and needed help. That's some pretty big power of the Father there and if he is like a previous Chosen One, one that Anakin might have or get too.

With the Force Priestesses of Yodas arc mirroring the interdimensional aliens from Indy 4 I want more Indy paralells with Force mystic stuff. What else?

 

Back when I first watched the Mortis trilogy, I assumed these were the graves of their extended family/tribe, other members of their species. Then when Darth Plagueis was released, with its passage about ascended beings governing the Force, I assumed they were Celestials. I would give quite a bit to have the delete scene(s) from the Yoda Arc where the Force Priestess talks about the Father. But I think the closest we'll get to that is whatever Joe Bongiorno comes up with for Supernatural Encounters.

I'm really hoping at some point (maybe in the Vader comic?) we see Palpatine send OCHI OF BESTOON on a quest to find THE MORTIS DAGGER!

 

The deleted scene hopefully would have connected her as the Mother of said family as I always interpreted it. Or is there any other hint as to its content?

 

As far as I know, there's been little-to-no hint as to its content beyond that it existed. I hadn't considered that she might be the original Mother, but it would surprise me that they let Denning make Abeloth the Mother (albeit step-mother) in Apocalypse if that was what they had planned.

EDIT: Filoni on deleted lines from script: https://boards.theforce.net/threads...estesses-their-planet.50019015/#post-51408700

 

Is there a book with the Mortis theme in it?

 

I think Lucas said LOST, especially the origin story of the man in black /Smokey, was the inspiration for the Son and his motivation

 

There is some Mortis-related material in Troy Denning's last two EU novels - Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse, and Crucible. The Ones are briefly mentioned in The Book of Sith and in The Essential Guide to Warfare.

 

@ColeFardreamer I have never watched the third Indy movie, but I was recently struck by the similarities between this story and the movie Lost Horizon, in which the protagonist and a group of people crash-land in the Himalayas and are taken to a lamasery in the valley of Shangri-La, where nobody ages and time seems not to pass. It is a paradise on Earth, set apart from the modern world and all its woes. There, the High Lama tells the protagonist that he brought him there so that he could take his place, because he is dying. The protagonist refuses and leaves, and the Lama dies, with that early paradise being forever lost to the modern world. I've never watched the film, but I wouldn't be surprised if Lucas was influenced in part by it. The similarities are strong.

@QuinlanSolo Thank you for sharing that link! I had never heard of a deleted scene where the Priestesses referenced the Father, but it's quite intriguing. I wonder if this is part of Lucas's ever-changing views on the Force, or if he always intended for the Ones to be simply another, older Order not unlike the Jedi, but who had achieved godlike power in comparison to them. In that sense, it would make sense then that the Priestesses would have that sort of opinion of them. In other threads we have discussed some of Lucas's original ideas for the origin of the Jedi, which involved knowledge of the Force originating within a single family and being passed down as hereditary knowledge. So perhaps the Ones are somehow tied to the origin of the Jedi Order itself, and are themselves mortal in origin. The fact that there are other tombs in Mortis (which I had not noticed before!) seems to imply this, rather than their being actual Force gods.

@Ghost I had not heard that Lucas was partially inspired by that episode of Lost. I definitely see the parallels, with the Son being trapped in this place where a power that could affect the whole galaxy is guarded and protected, and wanting to leave despite putting the rest of the world at risk. And like with the movie Lost Horizon, there's also that similarity with the guardian of the power bringing his successor to this isolated place so that he may replace him. Of course, in both Star Wars and Lost Horizon, the successor actually refuses this call, and those paradise worlds are lost.

Considering these different parallels, what is the greater meaning of the loss of Mortis? The Ones are called that because they describe themselves as the "ones who guard the power." What is the power? Is it the Force? Is it greater powers granted by the Force that were known in the past (e.g., immortality, shapeshifting, time travel) and that are lost to the present? In that sense, perhaps this ties more closely to the idea of new beginnings, with the Jedi Order being reborn in the OT but now without the shadow of the Sith (and possibly older cults) to haunt them.

 

@Sauron_18 Oh I didn't know "Lost Horizon" movie but have to check it out, it sounds very fitting indeed! I knew of the LOST inspirations and loved that show myself.

Tying the Mortis family to the original family that discovered the Force seems highly likely and interesting. Given Lucas once called that being "The Skywalker" they might even be direct ancestors of Anakin and Shmi's lineage somehow, or maybe not.

Regarding the "Loss of Mortis" and its greater meaning (great question!), I think we see threefold how it affects the SW saga and universe as a whole:

1) It shows the epitome of Forcepowers where literally the Force becomes magic and anything goes, true godhood achieved by a mortal family at great cost and loss and sacrifice. The family, their paradise though is not perfect or a happy paradise despite what they achieved, being able to change the universe itself at will from Mortis.

In that regard this scenario has Mortis as a warning and a possible endgame scenario to every Forceuser or cult ever. You can achieve everything the Jedi or Sith want and believe possible, but it costs and does not make you happy either. In the end, with all done and achieved the Ones seek death and replacement more than anything else. It shows that a lineage of Chosen Ones will ultimately fail as it had in the past. The galaxy needs to learn itself and get better, not be forced to be better by immortal guardians.

2) With the loss of Mortis, we have the loss of magic or the epitome of Forcepower levels. TCW and Order 66 literally ends the Jedi, the Nightsisters, the Ones and ultimately in ROTJ even the Sith. A true complete reset of the Matrix so to speak with new players rediscovering the Force and shaping it anew on a fresh gameboard. Save what you love of the past, let the rest crumble, to paraphrase Rose from TLJ (brilliant movie with many layers befitting Mortis actually!).

Here we have Anakin as the Chosen One to tear down, Luke and Leia as the Chosen Ones to preserve of the past and Jedi and People of the Republic, what distilled down to their limited time among the heroes of the past can be saveworthy. Then comes the next generation, Ben and Rey who as Chosen Dyad will like Yin and Yang kill the past and save what one loves.

The Loss of Mortis here represents the literal Balance Point, where one sees that destruction gives way to creation and vice versa and that this natural order and balance, a fluid dynamic of life and death, is what creates balance more than a static one where a Father forces his children to behave and not move but stay. The past Chosen line of the Ones failed in choosing a static order and is refused to be replaced by Anakin. Anakin does not want to keep up their vision of order but creates his own, a more natural one where the wheel can turn again and is no longer stuck. Evil and Good both die and are reborn in Anakins order. In the Ones order though, Evil never dies as they stopped the wheel kinda (Abel Pena would maybe like that lol!). But as the Force can flow freely now again, not needing gods anymore (Nietzsche might like the Gods are dead, freedom for the Force thought train!), Ezra can rediscover the World between Worlds and others other parts of the huge network and vast multiverse of the Force. The Skywalkers needn't do so themselves as they paved the way for others to be able to.

3) In another interpretation, the Loss of Mortis can be very religious. We often come back to the first Jedi, first Sith, first split, the original sin of the Star Wars universe. Be it Sith born out of the Jedi or the other way around. Given the first Mortis episode used a 2000 year old Jedi signal, which may be a reference to 2000 year old history of Christ and his original family and lineage, the first Forceuserfamily of the Ones may be 2000 years old (or older as Legends interpreted it). It may mean the last Chosen One was from 2000 years ago, be it that he back then refused to replace the Father also, or was not worthy and became a Sith aka Darth Ruin, or the first SIth, or he did replace the "previous Father" and the current one is from that timeframe, etc.

However, in that scenario the loss of Mortis comes full circle with the 2000+ year old past. But it is neither a warning nor an endpoint or balance point ending one frame and kickstarting another as in (1) and (2). Here the Mortis Ones would be like the old Testament vs. Anakin's lineage being the new. Or the Ones represent the old jewish world Jesus was born into and reformed with christianity born after him much like Rey calls herself a Skywalker after the family of Anakin.

I see christian paralells but am not too keen on interpreting everything that way myself.

Be it Anakin dying crucified like a criminal as in condemned to be remembered as evil Sith despite freeing the galaxy of Palpatine like the romans tried to paint Jesus as a bad person.
Be it Luke appearing after his death to Rey on Ach-To like Jesus did to his followers inspiring them. (I tend to think while Jesus was tempted by the devil in the desert, Luke was tempted by the devil/Snoke/Palpatine surrounded by water on Ach-To)
Be it Ben who died and walked again healed, as Rey did wonders wherever she went. Ben dying later at the right moment though to save another (much like some apocryphal texts have Jesus survive his crucification and return to his wife and children going to either India or Japan, or having the holy bloodline end up in france royalty).

There are lots more paralells... and also many more to other religions. Long story short: The Loss of Mortis is a god (the Force) taking fate out of the hands of those that believe to guard the power of the universe based on their previous religious initiations. It is no flood or doom where creation is destroyed to create anew but rather God/the Force's soft reboot leaving people alive to change slowly.

 

Just a quick headsup to my fellow Mortis-lovers: The latest Insider Special Edition has a nice article about the Mortis arc (no idea if a reprint or new). But the wording in there adresses directly some points TFN discussed and pretty much confirms a lot we came to agree upon too.

Will post quotes or notes on it later today!