CT Force Ghost question

Did fans believed when they first saw the OT that all Force Users became Force Ghosts?
If so how could they be sure that Palpatine would not become a Force Ghost too?
The Force Ghosts were never explained until Episode 3

 

No , I felt like it was something that you achieved from goodness or sacrifice and love etc.

 

Vader was a Jedi and Obi-Wan felt the need to warn him in ANH about how powerful he would become if he was struck. And in TESB, Vader thought that with Obi-Wan's death he could no longer provide help to Luke. So the implication is clear that it's not something that all Force users are aware of.

 

I remember the debate around Qui-Gon not disappearing back when TPM came out.

 

Would that be because he never mastered becoming a full physical Force ghost- only preserving his consciousness in the physical world?

 

I've seen it, and I am a fan, don't get me wrong.

But that doesn't necessarily indicate what was originally intended when TPM was written and filmed- or canon pre-buyout (I also saw Qui-Gon in TCW).

 

Yes. That's the explanation, but nobody knew that at the time. The reason for the debate is that, as mentioned, some at the time thought that all Jedi (as Jedi) could do it.

 

The idea of "cheating death" is vague enough, but we actually have multiple means of people "preserving life after death", with Force-ghosts, Force-resurrection, and whatever Sith magic bs Palpatine pulled (and Maul in TCW too, if you count that.) Meanwhile I'm left wondering what lets a Force-ghost even appear/ communicate with someone, because Obi-Wan sure took his sweet time in ESB.

 

Force ghosts are those who trained to retain their identity after death. It's not cheating death because they truly die and remain dead. They need to join the Force at will. It's their spiritual identity that "lives".

Maul's resurrection in TCW is not exactly a resurrection because it only revealed that he never really died despite his injuries. He used the dark side to keep himself alive, no different from Vader on Mustafar.

Obi-Wan appears and communicates with Luke because he had a connection with him when he was alive. Same with Yoda and Anakin. And Luke had already developed a connection with the Force too.

 

It all amounts to the same thing of people being alive / sentient despite going through things that would normally, permanently, kill them. And I don't think anything has really explained why Obi-Wan would wait 3 years to contact Luke and tell him to go to Yoda.

 

I don't think it's the same thing. Unlike Vader and Maul, who clinged to the remains of their living form, the Emperor was vaporized.

Regarding Obi-Wan, how do you know he didn't contact him for three years? Maybe he guided and taught Luke for three years until he was deemed ready to go to Yoda for further training.

 

The ROTS script indicates that what the Jedi did was not the same thing that Darth Bane was alleged to have done. That's why in TROS, Palpatine had to resort to unnatural means to survive, while the Jedi used something that was rare, but natural.

"The big surprise is that (Obi-Wan) doesn't die - he's able to join the Force at will and retain his identity, and influence things in a more powerful way than he could just by being a Jedi."

--George Lucas, ANH DVD Commentary.

The issue of consciously joining the Force, which is a theme that runs through these films, and being able to retain your personality and your individuality once you've gone over to the other side, is a part of the story that gets explained in the first three films (Episodes I-III). Here (ESB) it becomes kind of a mystery, because it's never really explained how and why that happens."

--George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

"We cut to Yoda, who is meditating, who hears this (the Tusken slaughter) off-screen, and we do hear a voice in there, and that voice is the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn. So we very subtly establish that in this rather intense emotional connection, where Yoda is feeling the pain and suffering of Anakin and the Tusken Raiders, he's also making a connection, unwittingly, with Qui-Gon Jinn. Up to this point (in the Saga), we haven't established that you can make a connection with the departed in this world, and that will become a factor in Episode III. Lots of issues sort of come out of that - but this is the very beginning of it. Yoda making a connection with Qui-Gon Jinn in the middle of Anakin's pain."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

"There’s a hint of how Obi-Wan eventually in ANH has learned to give up his physical being and becomes one with the Force and you understand here that his old master Qui-Gon has something to do with it - come back from the netherworld of the Force and teach him how to do it."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

--Laurent Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

They are not alive anymore. They're ghosts. That's not the same as Palpatine and Maul.

 

If I remember correctly, the Jedi Academy books, written between the OT and the PT, feature what amounts to the ghost of Sith Lord Exar Kun haunting the temple on Yavin IV. It's been a while since I've read the books, so I'm not sure of the explanation for this. But, in all likelihood, the whole thing was de-rezzed by Disney.
Personally, as I've posted before, I prefer to think of it as everybody retains a sense of self in the afterlife, albeit in either Light Side Heaven or Dark Side Hell. Jedi with sufficient power, training and love are able to cross the boundaries and appear in the physical world as Force Ghosts. This satisfies my sentimental attitudes by allowing Ani to be reunited with Padme, his Mom, Qui-Gon, and Kenobi on the other side. And if George Lucas et al say differently, so be it. I'm sticking to my guns on this one.

 

Yeah, Force ghosts aren't the same thing as surviving deadly things through the dark side, but they both amount to the same thing, in that the person is able to "live" (walk, talk, preserve their identity, personality, etc.) after going through something that kills them, or would kill a normal person (as in, not let them do those things).

I guess Obi-Wan could've contacted Luke earlier, but that doesn't seem likely. Given how much depends on Luke becoming a Jedi, they should really be prioritizing his training, not putting it off. It makes no sense to wait 3 whole years.

 

In my headcanon, Obi-wan's ghost could sense through the Force that the time wasn't right to train Luke until he'd had 3 whole years to mature. Obviously Yoda disagreed, but Yoda was not infallible.

 

The Sith/Dark Jedi ghosts of the Legends EU were from before Lucas said that. Freedan Nadd and Exar Kun were the result of Sith magic, which simulated the Jedi Force ghosts, but tended to create the sensation of intense suffering.

It seems like Yoda doesn't want to train Luke, while Obi-Wan did. The general speculation has been that Luke’s near death experience finally prompted them to tell Luke about Yoda.

 

^That doesn't make much sense though. Granted a lot about Yoda's decisions regarding the twins and training doesn't make sense, but at that point Luke had already started training in ANH, and it's not like he had changed drastically by ESB. He and Obi-Wan are pinning the hope to save the galaxy on him, so here's really no reason to not tell him to go to Yoda as soon as possible.

Really, I think it's more believable if only months passed since ANH, and RotJ took years after ESB.

 

Yoda tells us exactly what's wrong with Luke.

YODA: "Ready, are you? What know you of ready? For eight hundred years have I trained Jedi. My own counsel will I keep on who is to be trained. A Jedi must have the deepest commitment, the most serious mind. This one a long time have I watched. All his life has he looked away... to the future, to the horizon. Never his mind on where he was. Hmm? What he was doing. Hmph! Adventure. Heh! Excitement. Heh! A Jedi craves not these things. You are reckless!"

That's why Luke looks down. He knows it's true. He understands that in Yoda's point of view, he's a disappointment. It's why Owen chastised him for his irresponsible attitude. They're in a situation where they're stuck with Luke, who has training, but lacks discipline. They don't need another Inquisitor/Acolyte/Sith on their hands.

 

If they're stuck with him anyway, what's the point of waiting 3 years to train him? And why do that, while being the one who determines he won't be raised from infancy as a normal Jedi would, and then complain he's too un-Jedi-like and too old?

If he needs to improve then, I don't know, maybe be active in trying to give him the guidance needed, and do so sooner rather than later?

No, unless Yoda was unavailable to train Luke in those 3 years, I don't see any good explanation for them waiting to continue Luke's training.

But I've probably derailed the thread enough... So, Force ghosts... yeah, they don't make much sense. But, despite my nitpicks, I kinda like that about them.

 

In Return of the Jedi we see that the end product of a sith's lifespan is a culimination of their ambition, anger, lust and hatred. Their life energies are transformed into a large explosion when they die. As occurred with the Emperor after being thrown down that shaft.

If the dark side path is defined by destruction. The light side path must be defined by its polar opposite: creation.

And so we see the end result of a light side jedi's path culminate in a creative process where they become spirit ghosts.

 

In Legends, Obi-Wan and Yoda wish to assess Luke's character during his time with the Rebellion, to be certain that he won't turn out to be the "next Anakin". After 3 years of watching him, they're as sure as they can reasonably be - so Ben sends Luke a message telling him to go to Yoda in the Dagobah system.