ST How come Leia never forgive her father (Anakin)?

Then why are you arguing for the idea that things happened off screen, when they're never developed to have happened and wouldn't have a lot of reason to?

 

Are you asking me why my conversation was on the subject it was on before you chimed in?

@anakinfansince1983

I think we have our wires crossed...clearly, there is no need to fill in the blank that Vader is Luke's dad. This is confirmed onscreen in ROTJ by Yoda.

In ROTJ, Luke Skywalker states specifically that he (via The Force) feels good, conflict, etc in his father.

You are saying that he doesn't actually feel the good in a literal sense. You are saying this is what Luke is saying for himself more than an actual feeling via The Force. Is this incorrect?

 

1. The narrative is that Luke literally feels the good in his father. I like your take* that it's something Luke tells himself rather than a literal feeling. I think it is filling in the blanks because this reasoning (which I agree with) is NOT stated/shown in the film it's as you said: It makes sense. Yet, whether it makes sense, or not, is a matter of perception. The movie presents it as a literal feeling.

2. Rey feeling the good in Kylo Ren is supposed to be a literal feeling via The Force. You say this makes no sense because they are not family/related. They are a dyad in The Force though. Is that too much of a narrative cheat? Unearned? I a kind of feel that way about Padme dying from a broken heart.

*So, you don't believe that when Force users in SW claim to "feel the good" or other emotions in others that they are feeling it in a literal sense?

 

Luke has nothing but faith that his father has good in him. Zero evidentiary basis for it. Zero.

Rey has a literal vision she experiences through the force after making physical contact with Kylo that he is conflicted and will join sides with her.

Also, she has the utilitarian reason for doing it, turning the no. 2 in command inside The First Order and shifting the tide.

Also, she is following Luke’s example, the legend who turned his father.


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In one of the posts I replied to you were arguing that Leia told Rey inbetween movies, as far as I remember.

 

No. Luke literally says that the good in his dad is why he couldn't destroy him. But also, it's his dad, so Luke has a natural emotional connection to his dad.

Rey is already supporting Kylo before she has the vision. And Rey doesn't even know what visions are as far as TFA developed, so it doesn't make sense for her to be utterly buying Kylo on that basis, and it doesn't make sense for her to be so emotionally supportive.

Rey attacks Luke for Kylo's honor. That's not utilitarian. Rey never once says that she thinks they'll be in command inside the first order.

This is just arguing that Rey is an empty headed character in this movie without a real drive of her own.

 

Orphans/adopted kids are more likely to be angry with their parents, but not in fairy tales. Anyway, Luke/Vader still far more believable than Reylo. The OT remains an all time classic.

Luke feels a compelling connection to his father. This is something human people can understand and personally connect with. It's certainly difficult to deny. Children connect deeply with it. It literally makes grown men cry. Rey having a psychic vision about a stranger doesn't really connect with anyone, because it's not a human experience. It is without meaning.

"I can't kill my own father" is something that simply cannot be argued with. Well, Kylo killed his father, and Rey has no human connection with him, so it's easy to reject.

 

There's also the coming of age story as part of that where one goes from childhood, and having idyllic notions and beliefs of what the world is, and who their parents are, into adulthood where they see the reality, the truth, and have to over come it, or accept it.

That's a journey for everyone. And that's Luke's journey of discovering that the father who he thought was one thing, was actually something far darker, more evil, and then realizes he is in many ways just like this figure.

I have no clue what Rey's journey even is, other than wanting a new cooler last name, and then getting/taking it.

 

Luke can’t even argue that he had a strategic purpose for turning his father.

He tries to argue it’s to take heat off the rebellion but Leia calls him out on it, that he could leave the planet and he concedes the point that it to save his father’s soul and nothing else. He knows the Alliance is going to launch an assault on the Death Star 2 and he will be on it. He is on a suicide mission to save his father at the expense of everything else, even aiding the Alliance in their war effort.

Rey believes turning Kylo can help the Resistance win the day. She gives Luke one final chance to take up his saber and join in the fight and again he refuses so she pursues the Kylo option. People here love to frame the debate as one in which she only cares about his soul because it suits their narrative but if that were true she wouldn’t have bounced on him and pulled for her saber the moment he refused to give the order to stop firing on the fleet.


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I was talking about my own head canon. I acknowledged the fact that what Rey did/did not know about Luke is not shown/addressed onscreen.

This was not an argument I was trying to make. I apologize if I was unclear on this. I like your take on why Luke thinks there is good in Vader.

This is where we differ. I know your issues with the writing in TLJ, I just don't view it this way.

Good point. Yet, the SW movies often shows that different Force users literally feel things differently based on different circumstances.

Earlier you said:

I don't agree.

I maintain that here are more than a few "fill in the blank moments" (of varying degrees) in each of the trilogies.

I bring up the ROTS mishandling of Padme's character/motivation because this would be one really egregious example contrary to your claim.

 

Luke did not need a strategic reason to abandon the alliance and martyr himself for the man who hunted and killed and oversaw the hunting and killing of others for twenty years? Ok!


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Nah, he has a tactical reason, to draw heat away from the rebels. Leia doesn't "call him out" on it, and she doesn't come away from the conversation on top or in the right. She loses. Leia tells him to leave as an audience surrogate (George was answering the potential audience question of "why don't you just run away?"), and is instantly rebuked. "No, you don't. You've always been strong."

Luke dismisses the idea of leaving for the cowardice it is. He must confront Vader. His destiny demands it. If he runs away, he runs away from his destiny, like a coward, and he will always regret it. He must confront Vader to become a man. He has to settle it. He has to stand up to his father. A part of him will always be a boy wondering about his father if he doesn't. This is heavy, manly stuff.

Unlike Rey, Luke is on an actual mission for the rebellion. He does go to take down the shield generator on Endor. It's only when he realizes Vader's ability to sense his presence endangers the mission that he decides to confront Vader at all. He wasn't there for that, but it becomes unavoidable. Rey just ships herself off to Kylo in a box, which is the actual martyrdom, chosen without it being forced upon her, and it's done for a stranger, based on a psychic vision.

You people are incredibly dishonest, but it doesn't matter. The OT will remain a classic, while the ST will be abandoned in the garbage heap of Star Wars history for the trash it is.

 

Forgive me. I thought we were discussing SW protagonist/character motivations & actions not just Luke, Anakin, and Rey.

I don't disagree. Yet my point is, and continues to be, that all three trilogies have lapses like this. Some are more egregious than others depending on one's personal tastes and perspective.

Luke has no actual relationship with his dad other than his dad being a monster/enemy/abuser. Luke was idealizing who his father used to be based on what Ben told him.That said, Luke does have compassion with the former Anakin Skywalker because he is figuratively (almost literally) walking in his father's footsteps/shoes.

Having empathy for one's enemy (regardless of relationship) is a core tenet and theme in these films. Clearly, TLJ's execution of this did not work for everyone and came off to those folks as unearned. It worked for me, though.

 

Lmao she totally calls him out on it, and the writers know it that’s why she is given the dialog that counters his reasoning. They KNOW it’s BS because if he REALLY wanted to take heat off the Rebellion he could just…go somewhere else. But the really real reason, the emotional one, the psychological one, the one that drives him is the need to believe there is still good in his father. Period. There is no tactic or strategy to his actions, certainly not one that would be in service to the Rebellion’s cause when he is going to be present on the very location they are aiming to destroy. That’s why Luke tells Leia she has the force and is the only hope left for the Alliance. He is prepared to die for his father if that’s what it takes.


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Luke can still destroy the Emperor on the DS2 if the Rebels fail, and if Luke turns Vader back to the good side, then he accomplishes the same thing Rey supposedly was trying to accomplish by going to Kylo.

Indeed, Luke has a powerful psychological drive to believe there is still good in his father, one he cannot resist, and this drives his actions. It's so powerful he's prepared to lay down his life for it (can we say the same of Rey?). This is called personal motivation, about as personal as it gets. It's a good thing, a human thing. I'm glad George focused on that personal motivation over any tactical motivations to win a space war. It's a major, wildly successful part of the greatest trilogy in movie history. It's one of the most wonderful things I've ever seen on film. It brings me to tears to this day despite never having had a relationship with my father, despite not really being able to personally connect to Luke's behavior, despite being in the "just kill him" camp from day one. Even as a four year old I teared up, because I understood what it meant to Luke, what it means to human beings, and how powerful the family connection is. Even at that age I could recognize the powerful modern myth for what it was. So could everyone else.

Rey's insistence on saving Kylo, on turning him to her side, based on a psychic vision she had, is a bizarre, inhuman thing that repulsed a huge number of people and has apparently soured even LFL/Disney on the ST and it's present and future prospects. It's gross and not well liked, because their relationship is toxic, baseless, hollow, and meaningless. It has no meaning to anyone. I say this as someone who absolutely loves Beauty and the Beast and would have loved a proper, save the school shooter Beauty and the Beast story in Star Wars. How timely, how relevant would that be to current US society? I could have loved that story as much as I love the OT, maybe more, but it's done so badly that I was completely disgusted by it. I love me some cosmic soulmates, too, and that's what JJ tried to suggest with the Dyad, but again, they're so far away from soulmates that I can only see that they're not, and what could have been.

 

Apropos of nothing:

Of course George focused on Luke's personal motivation, because George's Star Wars isn't about the GFFA, which no one really cares about, it's about human beings, it's about us. The ST is about watching the OT on VHS, dressing up as the characters, and aping it badly.

Kylo: I'm going to be as badass as you were, Darth Vader! Never tell me the odds how it turned out for Vader!
Rey: I can't kill a complete stranger who keeps trying to kill me! I'm going to do what you did in the movie called Return of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker! I'm Luke Skywalker, here to rescue the bad guy!

This is the shallow, derivative trash we got for a sequel trilogy.

 

Maybe I'm being unclear. I apologize. The Jedi practice compassion/empathy for everyone regardless of if they are family or not. This makes sense. In general, most Jedi (such as Obi-Wan) were taken from their relatives/family at a young age and they don't even know/remember their family.

In Star Wars, there are several examples of Jedi showing their enemies (and complete strangers) compassion/empathy (sometimes even if they don't deserve it). Whether (as audience members) we view that compassion as wise (or not) is simply a matter of personal taste and perspective.

As I said in the underlined above.

Lastly,

.

I'm not sure about this. He was told this once by Obi-Wan in what can best be generously described as a half truth or qualified from "certain point of view."

Once the truth about Anakin was revealed, the very same Obi-Wan made it abundantly clear that (despite his previous kind words about Anakin) that Anakin was an evil machine and Luke needed to be prepared to (possibly) kill him.

 

Rey doesn’t go to Kylo if she doesn’t think it helps her friends, the Resistance and the war effort. But keep on keeping on with the disingenuous framing.


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As I said:

I don't view the movie/plot, nor Rey's actions motivations, as you do. Different tastes and perspectives.