ST how different do you think a Lucas ST would've been?

Zam was a female villain in the saga, though. And Anakin shirtless in RotS is easily one of the steamiest moments in the films. I personally never cared much for the character of Talon, I just think Maul or whatever that Sauron-like thing is looks really cool.

 

That's not remotely the same thing.

I forgot Zam, but she was a minor character.

 

Anakin was also seen shirtless in AotC, so there is no bent in Star Wars to only show female skin. Plus the dark side is all about seduction. Palpatine is a seducer. It's just a fact of life that women can seduce men in a different way, and I think that's totally in line with what Star Wars is about. Star Wars is about facts of life. Lucas didn't shy away from things that might be controversial to some people, and that made his movies unique and authentic.

 

Iain McCaig’s redesign of Talon in the concept art for Episode 7 is actually a more modest take on the character from the EU. So it’s possible her more revealing design was too much even for Lucas.

That said, the artist who designed the character for the Legacy comics faced similar feedback back when the comics were first published. Here was her response:

“Real interesting discussions going on about Legacy and Star Wars in general. But there is one aspect of this I have got to address--the Twi'lek why she is dressed as she is. Being a female person myself so I am sensitive to issues of exploitation. That is not my intention.​

“When designing the Twi'lek I was attempting to call to mind a sci-fantasy version of a female Pict warrior--tattooed and fierce in appearance. Perhaps she is someone who uses their tribal markings as their armor--as if through some 'magic' she does not need actual armor. I think clarity about this character will come when she is seen in the series and we know more about her, but for now I just needed to clear up the issue of why she is dressed the way she is. Covering the tattoos (which I did think about, but rejected) would have removed the primitive quality I wanted to instill in her.”
​

I don’t fully disagree with the criticism mentioned beforehand, but I wouldn’t go as far as calling it sexist. I also do think it’s valuable to know the intent behind the design.

I agree that Iain McCaig’s wording is unfortunate (the concept artist who made the piece for Episode 7). But to be honest, I hadn’t even seen her as remotely reminiscent of enslaved characters in Star Wars, so I didn’t get that unfortunate implication from reading his comments. But I also think there’s probably more context to where McCaig was coming from.

For one, there’s the character of Talon herself, who despite being a follower of the dark side, and thus seduced by it, is not someone I’d ever describe as powerless or purely a seductress. But then there’s also McCaig’s history with trying to bring a female Sith character to Star Wars since Episode 2. Here’s what he said in the art book for that movie:

“I felt this was a great opportunity to introduce a strong woman character, to give girl fans an icon. The challenge was finding a new archetype that would stand up there with Darth Vader and Darth Maul.”
​

I won’t deny that there’s something old fashioned about how this sentiment is expressed. But all this is just to say that, based on the context of how this character was designed and redesigned, and the two artists involved, I don’t think the artists had the sexist mentality that you see in some of the fans out there who redesign female characters so that they look more traditionally feminine or sexual.

Ultimately, I think Talon could’ve worked as a villain for the sequels without her look being something that would make people too uncomfortable. Mainly because I don’t think she was designed that way nor would’ve been filmed that way.

Also, for what it’s worth, McCaig also designed what Maul’s tattoos would’ve looked like beyond what we saw in the movie. Which led to McCaig and Duursema’s (the Legacy artist) first collaboration:

 

Time expired to edit, so I’ll risk a double post to show that art piece:



It was an indirect collaboration only. McCaig designed the tattoos for Maul’s chest (and more, apparently) for Episode 1, and Duursema used that design for a Darth Maul comic. Which, I wouldn’t be surprised to learn, may have inspired Talon’s look later on.

 

Not necessarily either. Who decides that?

 

I’ve had arguments before on here which make me believe, and this is purely my personal opinion, that the definition of what constitutes sexism and other bigotry in media has been simultaneously over broadened and narrowed. Broadened to make it so nothing else than a female character showing cleavage is sexist (other examples might include black anime characters being called racist just for having naturalistic features that don’t even resemble American minstrel show racism) while narrowed so that removing her offending skin without changing much else about the characters position in the story is considered progressive. If Darth Talon or any other female character is well written and has agency then IMO its not sexist if she wears a sexy costume.

 

LORD willing, anyone, male, female, whatever being annoyed that a twilek is dressed in something other that, I'd argue the issue is coming from them.

 

I would argue that the main reason why Talon is dressed like that is to showcase the Sith tattoos. The EU showed quite a bit of barechested Maul.

 

How is Darth Talon sexist? when Aayla Secura she had an outfit that revealed a lot and that was in Lucas/EU Era Padawan Ahsoka Tano she also had an outfit that could be considered sexist today im sure Lucas would have changed Darth Talon Design and also why Shirtless Ben Solo in TLJ isnt considered sexist too? is ROTJ sexist too for the Jabba Palace scenes?

 

Perhaps we should call it sexual objectification. Yes, female Star Wars characters have often been sexually objectified ever since ROTJ. That does not make Talon less so.

But to address the topic, it is indeed very possible that Talon would ultimately have worn a completely different outfit. It's even possible that there wouldn't been any sexual undertones to her corrupting the Organa-Solo kid. We'll never know.

So I'll stick to what I do know, which is that I would have loved to see a female villain in the vein of Asajj Ventress - but, of course, with a distinct personality of her own. Put the Ventress energy in a person who is more secure in her position of power and you'll get a most impressive antagonist.

 

Right, but I think the point is, and I think the Darth Bane novels did a great job exemplifying this, is that the Sith were literally above nothing. They would use whatever they could to gain an edge over their opponents. Darth Zannah for example, knew she was attractive, and used that to further the evil goals of herself, her master Darth Bane, and her apprentice Darth Cognus.

In short, I'm not saying we need to have something like that exact concept art (when I said it looked cool, I was moreso referring to the Ghost Maul anyway since I agree that the Talon depiction made me a tad uncomfortable), but that I can totally see a Sith or dark sider looking like that because it fits the character to use anything that he or she can to get an edge.

 

Being honest the Shirtless Ben Solo Scene in TLJ it was completely unnecessary and feels out of place but some Fans consider Adam Driver to be someone Attractive thats why that Scene is Acceptable but if Darth Talon had done something similar in Lucas Sequels that would be sexist Ben Solo wasnt Fighting or Asleep like Anakin to justify that Scene it was just Fanservice

 

Darth Talon just looks stupid. Like a dude went to a strip club once and designed a Star Wars villain costume based on what he saw there. And then there's the creepy uber-villain petting her.

Even outside the sexual objectification (which is clear), it's bad concept art and I'm glad we never saw it realized on screen.

We clearly do not share taste. Mine is, of course, better.

It just looks like a cheap, sexy Halloween costume. The most tired and cliched version of what a "seductress" would look like. This isn't some cheap 80s comedy, like Weird Science. Star Wars should have higher standards than this. And, thank the Maker, those standards were upheld.

 

Lucas didnt think the same as you he even liked the Character of Darth Talon so much that he wanted to use her in his Version of the Sequels also what do you think of Aayla Secura? both Characters looks similar

 

Shrug. Lucas had some bad ideas. He was at his best when influenced by McQuarrie and Chiang. McCaig, for me, was really hit or miss. And more miss than hit.

 

We're still throwing around this notion that Lucas wasn't the one responsible for the Original Trilogy? @Deliveranze

 

Are we?

 

Huh?

 

Mcquarrie and Chiang were at their best when influenced by Lucas

 

Back in the leadup to TFA, people tried to credit ANH and ESB to everyone but George Lucas (McQuarrie, Irv, Kasdan, etc.). Sorry if that wasn't your intent, that post took me back to those days.

 

It not only wasn’t my intent - it wasn’t what I said. “Influenced by Quarrie and Chiang” implying, of course, that George is the ultimate creative decision-maker who could only be influenced by, and not overridden by, creative people on his team. And naturally I wasn’t just talking about the OT, as Chiang didn’t come on board until the PT.

Sorry if I inadvertently triggered memories of that nonsense discourse though!

 

Ya it's my bad mate, sorry about that. I need to work on letting things go