Lit Darth Vader's Knowledge and Potential Role in the planned Dark Empire?

Hi all!

This post serves as a discussion platform for whether or not Darth Vader knew what was going on at Byss and whether or not Palpatine would include him in it if he lived to see it.

What spurred this post was me seeing a meme when Vader is dying in ROTJ and he tells Luke about Exegol (in this case, Byss.)

As always, lets go over what we know first:

-As per the webstrip, Evasive Action: Recruitment, Vader certainly knew of the planet's connection to the Force and its ability to sustain mortal life, and visited it at least once along with Palpatine. It was on Byss that a number of captured AgriCorps workers and Padawans were held captive under the supervision of Sly Moore, until the Emperor introduced them to Darth Vader. Vader killed all but four of them; these four he trained to be Inquisitors.

-Palpatine's Dark Side Adepts during the Imperial Era were all being trained on Byss for their eventual role of "replac[ing] the system of Moffs, Grand Moffs and governors, instituting a Dark Side Theocracy." [Dark Empire Sourcebook.]
- Though to my knowledge never outright stated, its entirely possible Vader had a cursory knowledhge of these Adepts and may have assumed what their role would be, given the fact they were never really sent onto the field of battle and were more political servants, many becoming "...courtiers at the Palace in the new capital on Byss." [Dark Empire Sourcebook.] I have no doubt Vader sensed that Greejatus and Aloo, too of Palpatine's closest advisors, had a touch of the Dark Side. I have also no doubt that these two Adepts would be counted among the legions of others on Byss that would be deployed for their planned role.

-When did Palpatine plan on replacing the system of Moffs, Grand Moffs and governors with his adepts? I believe I have tracked down the only direct quote that points us in the right direction:
-"The inner circle estimates it will be decades before control of the Sentinels will be fine-tuned for their widespread use, appropriately about the time the other denizens of Byss are expected to be ready for their galactic deployment." [Force Unleashed Campaign Guide: Under the statsheet for the Imperial Sentinel.]
-We can assume that the text in this quote is considered "present" as of around 2 BBY, when the Campaign Guide would be "set." Meaning that the Dark Empire itself would not truly be rolled out in earnest until at least 20 ABY if not sooner.

-There is a possibility, however, that Palpatine hid the existence of the Adepts from Vader. In the same campaign guide, we get the following chilling quote:
-"Certain agents, particularly those working in and around the Emperor's fortress world of Byss, are hidden from the public and the vast majority of Imperial officials. Unlike with the Emperor's Hand or Inquisitors, rumors of these agents are mercilessly squashed, and those who discover them are hunted without end."
-While not outright stated, this group of people that discover the adepts does not state whether or not Vader or anyone who's last name is not Palpatine would be hunted down for uncovering this secret legion of Dark Siders. Not concrete evidence, but I thought it worthwhile to add.


What we don't know:

1. Regrettably, I have yet to find any evidence that Vader knew of Palpatine's clones nor his knowledge of essence transfer. If he had, I think it is safe to assume that he would have told Luke, if not prior to his death, then at least through the Force.

2. If Vader had lived and Luke had died during the events of ROTJ, would Palpatine have incorporated Vader in the imminent Dark Empire? Presumably, he would still hold the public role of Supreme Commander (or in this case Military Executor which in my opinion is just a DE-era rename of the same position.) Would Vader support the Dark Empire, or oppose it?

These two questions are what I raise to this forum. Maybe there is a quote in a sourcebook that I haven't read, or a critical component of the Dark Empire comics that I am not getting. Hopefully the good people here can fill in the blanks.

 

I'd lean towards Vader not knowing about the Dark Empire or any of Palpatine's essence transfer abilities. He definitely would have told Luke if he knew Palpatine could body surf.

Vader's position as Palpatine's second in command and his contentment with that position seemed to fluctuate a lot. Much of that has to do with what mood Vader was in at the time. There were times when Vader had resigned himself to his lot in life as Palpatine's apprentice, seeing it as a just punishment for his personal failings. And there were times when he wanted desperately to overthrow Palpatine. And he flip flopped on that a lot. But I don't think Vader ever wanted to really run the Empire, outside of that brief moment of hubris in Episode III when he told Padme they could rule together. His motivation to overthrow Palpatine after Episode III was, to me, more payback for being duped over Padme than a desire to really run things.

Vader always struck me as someone who knew how to play the political game, and did so, but despised doing it. Vader was a blunt instrument, not because he couldn't be subtle, but because he didn't want to be. Wheeling and dealing, scheming and plotting, those are things he could do, but probably thought were beneath his dignity. So I see him as being a lot less interested in being Emperor for power's sake alone. He'd see the throne as a burden to be borne rather than a prize to be won. He'd think he was bringing order to the galaxy, one throttled throat at a time. But he wouldn't enjoy it.

With that said, Palpatine would have built in contingencies if and when Vader turned on him. Because Vader was going to lash out eventually. I think the Dark Empire and the clones were one of such contingencies.

And if Vader never rebelled against him he would have just been quietly slipped into the hierarchy of the Dark Empire when it was eventually rolled out.

Considering how resigned Vader was by Episode VI to obeying the Emperor, if Luke had died I think he would have accepted the Dark Empire and gone along with it.

 

It's at least implied that Vader knows about Palpatine's clones because they have a meeting while Palpatine is preparing to transfer his spirit into one in Star Wars Missions.

 

I think we too often take Palpatine's boasts at face value, that somehow the Dark Empire contingencies were inevitable to come to pass.

As bleak and dark and expansive as they were, it still was not as vast as the Galactic Empire was at Endor.

I think if ROTJ had played out for the bad guys, things would continue as they were, more or less, for some time.

Perhaps elements of Palpatine's plan move forward (His plan for Anakin Solo in particular). But World Devastators and so on could remain in reserve if the galaxy was still under foot.

 

I understand that.

I guess perhaps I don't quite understand the question.

I am operating from the assumption that if Darth Vader lived past Endor, then the Empire was victorious at Endor.

Which would mean that the Emperor didn't have to abandon his current body, the Death Star II was still intact (probably to be completed) and the rebels were destroyed or subdued.

The needs for the Galaxy Gun or the use of Byss as a fortress capital, and such would never come to pass, because the New Republic would never come into existence if Vader/Palpy survive Endor.

Now if we are assuming Vader escapes in his TIE like at the end of ANH...things change significantly. Primarily because if he survived and Palpatine dies, then Vader becomes scapegoat #1, especially if the Emperor Reborn wakes up and points a finger at him.

Does a Vader who survives Endor remain loyal to a reborn Emperor? Does he join his children in the light? Does he go "third way"?

I think exactly how Endor plays out determines what Vader would do after.

As such, as others have said, Palpatine would not trust Vader with knowledge of his contingencies unless necessary. Or anyone else for that matter, because you never know what circumstance any person could encounter before reaching the time to enact those plans.

Trust is not an attribute of the darkside.

 

Given that Palpatine felt Vader was a shadow of his former self, there was a strong chance he would be replaced as soon as a sufficiently powerful candidate came along. This would have given Vader every incentive to move quickly against Palpatine.

I'm inclined to think no-Vader was in some ways, the face of the pre Dark Empire. And as Palpatine moved it towards being a dark side theocracy-Vader's role would become both obsolete and troublesome.

Vader isn't an idiot of course, and he probably knew Palpatine had plans in the works. But I don't get the impression he particularly cared most days.

 

Think Palpatine ultimately planned to discard Vader and possess Luke via essence transfer.

Which would have ultimately happened to Anakin if he didn't die and wasn't roasted on Mustafar.

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Here's the relevant quote -- note that the scene is told from Vader's perspective, though the phrasing is ambiguous enough so you could let the second paragraph count as a piece of exposition independent of Vader's thoughts:

 

Perhaps if Vader knew about it, he'd be even more interested in a clone body for essence transfer.

 

Maybe he would have been interested in it as a step in his quest to bring back Padme. For himself I doubt he would use it, the guy was just a killing machine that has pretty much given up on his life at that point.

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Leland randomly declared in a blog post or tweet or something that Palpatine was lying about having inhabited clones before ROTJ but he couldn’t be bothered to put it in an actual publication so I don’t think anyone should be bothered to take him seriously.

 

But, to be fair, I don't think anything so far in the Vader comics reveals that Sidious knows how to Essence Transfer. So all Vader knows about Exegol IIRC is that Sheev has a super secret Sith fleet.

 

That's always been one way to look at it, but I always thought that even if Vader knew as much as anyone about the Emperor's longer term plans he really didn't have any time or ability to share that information with Luke.

Just how long would it take for the turbolift to get Anakin and Luke from the DS2 Throne Room to the Emperor's Docking Bay? Just a few minutes? Even if his health was perfect, what could he have said? He was barely able to speak at all, barely alive. Probably brain damaged from the oxygen loss and failing life support on top of the physical damage from the Force Lightning. He didn't even make it to the shuttle alive. He really didn't have the time or ability to warn Luke about Byss or any number of other Imperial secrets.

 

That's true, but he could have already told Luke about it as a force ghost on Endor.

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My headcanon is that (Legends) Vader knew about essence transfer, and perhaps even about the cloning facilities on Byss, but he assumed that Palpatine had to be near one of his clones to transfer into it. So there was no need to tell Luke about Byss, and if Palpatine had any clones on DS2, Vader realized (at least after killing the current Palpatine) that it was about to be destroyed anyway, before a clone could recover from the transfer.

In fact I don't think even Palpatine expected to be able to get to Byss from Endor. He almost didn't -- per The Kaal Connection, his Force ghost seemed to have flailed around in the Chaos until he found Jeng Droga, whom he possessed in his desperation so he could physically carry him to Byss. Palpatine's resurrection after Endor is not part of any "master plan" of his; it's a desperate feat that no one expected to work.

 

And in Empire’s End, Sidious says that it was thanks to his predeccesors on Korriban that he was able to get to Byss after ROTJ and after the end of Dark Empire I.

 

If Palpatine had clone bodies as a contingency, okay, that might make sense. But for him to keep a bunch of superweapons and a massive fleet sitting in reserve at Byss rather than actively using them to smash Rebels while he's still alive...well that doesn't make sense.

 

But most of those superweapons were completed after Endor. And there doesn't seem to be that massive a fleet in the Deep Core before that. After all, Imperial assets "kept disappearing" and actually ending up at Byss in the years after Endor, per the Warfare guide.

 

This is exactly true. DE2 has Palps outright saying to Leth that "we should have thought of it decades ago" in reference to the Galaxy Gun, meaning that it was a very new development. It's not even in DE1, or why else did he need to send out World Devastators when he could simply one-shot Dac from far away? If anything, the development of the Galaxy Gun should be seen as a response to the defeat of the Devastators. As it wasn't even a part of his earlier plans, that in turn is all the confirmation needed that he changed his plans and adapted them to new realities as they presented themselves.

As for all the Naval hardware vanishing into the Deep Core, yes, most of that happened after Endor. There was still a very heavy presence prior to that, though. As far back as the Constancia Affair from the '70s we saw experimental fighters and weapons in the Deep Core. The whole area was its own Oversector, surely with all the heavy ships expected of an Oversector Command Headquarters. The Galaxy News Nets mentioned Palp's attending to important State business in the Deep Core, and DESB has the 15th Deep Core Reserve Fleet prior to Endor.

 

So doesn't that mean there was no Dark Empire plan prior to Endor? Just a clone-Palpatine-when-he-dies plan?

 

Looking back at Dark Empire, I think if it was released after the Prequels, it would have been Anakin as a force ghost preventing Palpatine possessing his grandson and namesake and keeping him prisoned in the netherworld of the force, considering that he was supposed to be the chosen one.





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